Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) OK so if Aurbere isn't going to do a comparison, I will to kick off some debate. So we have a general consensus that Plagueis is superior in Control and Caedus in Sense, leaving Alter. I'm think I'd actually favour Plagueis here, and so I will gear my comparisons in his direction. Basically I'll focus on the feats of the opposition, and demonstrate how Plagueis has surpassed them, starting with the Sith Emperor. 1. At a young age the Sith Emperor snapped his adoptive father's neck with a mere thought. Impressive, but not unprecedented. Darth Zannah for example Force crushed a Force-sensitive at an equally young age, so you can imagine what one would expect from a vastly superior Force User. And then we have the fact that Darth Plagueis mastered mental manipulation at a young age as well, forcing one of his companions to comitt suicide. 2. The Sith Emperor could generate powerful lightning capable of incapacitating powerful Jedi Impressive, no doubt, but is there any real evidence to suggest these individuals would have been able to stand against Plagueis either? I don't think so. Plagueis was easily able to conjure large-scale Force storms and with equal ease has reduced non-Force sensitives gloop with but a burst of lightining. His powers in this field rival that of Darth Sidious and I have little doubt he'd be able to subdue the likes of Revan, the HoT and the rest with ease. 3. The Sith Emperor could generate Force waves capable of throwing Revan off his feet. A decent feat, but not exceptional, Plagueis in a weakened condition practically atomised a dozen assassins with a wave of his hand in rapid succession, there is no telling what he would be capable of at full strength. Likely in-game Marek feats. 4. Through complex ritual, the Sith Emperor was capable of warping the very weather on Dromund Kaas Plagueis' mere presence on Naboo caused the coldest winter they had ever experienced, and Plagueis's experiments on the island of Aborah transformed the area in a dark side nexus, described as a "transcendent vortex of dark energy" rivalling that of the nexuses on Sith worlds that had been built up over millenia. And that is significant, Dromund Kaas was already tainted, the Sith Emperor merely added to it. Go figure. There are other feats that are incomparable, but mainly if not exclusively Sith Sorcery, such as Qâzoi Kyantuska and the Force Drain ritual, both products of many centuries of study, preparation and exceptional circumstances. I think I'll leave it with just the Sith Emperor for now, and get some thoughts before moving on to other candidates. Edited January 20, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 OK so if Aurbere isn't going to do a comparison, I will to kick off some debate. Well, that was convincing enough to get me thinking Plagueis is superior in Alter. I would still be more confident in arguing an overall comparison, but I think it would be possible to argue in Alter as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Well, that was convincing enough to get me thinking Plagueis is superior in Alter. I would still be more confident in arguing an overall comparison, but I think it would be possible to argue in Alter as well. All of htat is why I called it a draw in Alter, because honestly I think the same thing could be done with Caedus, or Talzin. To me Alter is just to crazy to call right now. If Plageus really is the winner of the Control Category then going by my logic I would have him above Caedus as the Victor. Of course that does force a re-examining of Plaegus vs Yoda, but personally I am confident such an examination would result in what we already have. Edited January 20, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Of course that does force a re-examining of Plaegus vs Yoda, but personally I am confident such an examination would result in what we already have.Yoda drew if not defeated ROTS Sidious, who in turn was more powerful than Plagueis. Yoda > Plagueis. However I agree that Plagueis and the Sith Emperor are exceptionally close, I'm having second thoughts about Caedus though, because while he possesses many impressive powers, I feel his Force lightning falls short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yoda drew if not defeated ROTS Sidious, who in turn was more powerful than Plagueis. Yoda > Plagueis. However I agree that Plagueis and the Sith Emperor are exceptionally close, I'm having second thoughts about Caedus though, because while he possesses many impressive powers, I feel his Force lightning falls short. I agree. I think Plagueis and the Sith Emperor are close, but they are both superior to Caedus (in Alter, specifically). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yoda drew if not defeated ROTS Sidious, who in turn was more powerful than Plagueis. Yoda > Plagueis. However I agree that Plagueis and the Sith Emperor are exceptionally close, I'm having second thoughts about Caedus though, because while he possesses many impressive powers, I feel his Force lightning falls short. Remember that he was a Jedi first and foremost. His alter powers will thus likely reflect more on that, especially compared to the other candidates here. So if his TK is more impressive that is something to note, if his other powers with alter are more impressive that is something to note. As I have said before what you expect to see from an equally powerful Jedi and sith is usually Control : Jedi Sense: Tie Alter: Sith So far I gave it Control (some one other then Vitiate Sense: Caedus Alter: Pure draw How ever forums seems to suggest Control : Plageus Sense : Caedus Alter: Draw (except caedus????) Which I have said before that sometimes the Jedi can take a lead in Senses if that is the sphere they are leaning greatest to, which would explain Caedus especially with his concern with the universe at large. As such the winner by default in this case I would feel would have to be Plageus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 On the other hand the Sith Emperor's ability to one shot the Dark Council (on two occasions) might tip the scales. I am unsure, the input of others would be valuable here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Remember that he was a Jedi first and foremost. His alter powers will thus likely reflect more on that, especially compared to the other candidates here. So if his TK is more impressive that is something to note, if his other powers with alter are more impressive that is something to note. As I have said before what you expect to see from an equally powerful Jedi and sith is usually.But he became Sith, and as a Jedi wielded emerald lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 On the other hand the Sith Emperor's ability to one shot the Dark Council (on two occasions) might tip the scales. I am unsure, the input of others would be valuable here. It depends on what the circumstances behind those events are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 But he became Sith, and as a Jedi wielded emerald lightning. If that is the case then what makes you feel his lightning feats are "lacking" Emerald lightning sounds a lot like Talzin's lightning to me and we know how strong HER lightning feats are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 If that is the case then what makes you feel his lightning feats are "lacking" Emerald lightning sounds a lot like Talzin's lightning to me and we know how strong HER lightning feats are... *shrug* Never thought color really meant anything. Jaina's was black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Why does tunewalker keep posting in this thread? --- Saying Plagueis has better feats then Vader or Caedus is lolworthy. Edited January 20, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 *shrug* Never thought color really meant anything. Jaina's was black. I felt the same. I always felt it was based on the user rather than the power they put out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) PS: Beni, reporting me to the mods just makes it look worse for you. Like, are you seriously that helpless you can't solve a situation without crying to authorities over it? They don't give me infractions for jokes. When will you learn? Edited January 20, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I felt the same. I always felt it was based on the user rather than the power they put out. That's a possibilty. *shrug* I personally dont know. And what Marchese said I kind of agree with (not the lol worthiness) but I was prepared to argue Vader over Plageus, which would auto put Caedus above Plageus, but that is not the way I am conducting my comparisons. If my own suspiciouns and beliefs are wrong... then they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 If that is the case then what makes you feel his lightning feats are "lacking" Emerald lightning sounds a lot like Talzin's lightning to me and we know how strong HER lightning feats are...Well Caedus' lightning could only warp his subjects, not disintegrate them, and if I recall he was unable to subdue Jaina with lightning in their final battle, whereas the Sith Emperor's lightning stopped Revan and the Jedi Strike Team in there tracks. That said I think Caedus might have been missing an arm, and had been stabbed in the stomach. I am still confident however that Caedus is more powerful than Talzin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 That's a possibilty. *shrug* I personally dont know. And what Marchese said I kind of agree with (not the lol worthiness) but I was prepared to argue Vader over Plageus, which would auto put Caedus above Plageus, but that is not the way I am conducting my comparisons. If my own suspiciouns and beliefs are wrong... then they are wrong. I honestly would not put Vader above Plagueis. Plagueis' mastery of the Force and combative uses of the Force are far superior. Plagueis has pretty much outdone Vader in Vader's greatest field: telekinesis. If that doesn't suggest superiority, I don't know what will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well Caedus' lightning could only warp his subjects, not disintegrate them, and if I recall he was unable to subdue Jaina with lightning in their final battle, whereas the Sith Emperor's lightning stopped Revan and the Jedi Strike Team in there tracks. That said I think Caedus might have been missing an arm, and had been stabbed in the stomach. I am still confident however that Caedus is more powerful than Talzin. Well Jaina is a Skywalker... Revan isnt... and I am not sure how much UMPH he puts into it. For some reason I do get the sense that Earlier sith like Vitiate liked to REALLY intimidate with their power displays, while later were OCCASSIONALLY more subtle. But in other areas we see them amp it up. I feel mostof Caedus's power displays just arent with Lightning, but I dont think that means they are "weak" displays, I just dont want to focus on 1 Alter power as some determining factor, make sure the best displays for all combatants is considered. We are sure Plageus takes Control??? but as is right now the verdict I would say leans in favor of Plageus, but just for right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 I honestly would not put Vader above Plagueis. Plagueis' mastery of the Force and combative uses of the Force are far superior. Plagueis has pretty much outdone Vader in Vader's greatest field: telekinesis. If that doesn't suggest superiority, I don't know what will.Yeah I cannot think of a single field Vader is superior in, it doesn't make sense for Vader to be stronger than Plagueis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 We are sure Plageus takes Control??? You want to argue it? Because I'm pretty sure he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I honestly would not put Vader above Plagueis. Plagueis' mastery of the Force and combative uses of the Force are far superior. Plagueis has pretty much outdone Vader in Vader's greatest field: telekinesis. If that doesn't suggest superiority, I don't know what will. I honestly wouldnt say Vader's strongest feats are TK, nor would I necisarily say Plagueis out did him. Plagueis out did Pre-ANH Vader that is for sure, but I am less sure on RotJ Vader. That being said Vader is not a Candidate, he is weaker then Caedus, and the results will be the results. I may believe Vader stronger, but my beliefs could be wrong so I am just going to look at each piece 1 by 1 and make judgements as they come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yeah I cannot think of a single field Vader is superior in, it doesn't make sense for Vader to be stronger than Plagueis. Problem is most are still looking at Pre-ANH Vader for feats. Cus that is where most of his feats are, but when doing that you probably should take what ever feat you see and increase it by at least 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well Jaina is a Skywalker... Revan isnt... and I am not sure how much UMPH he puts into it. For some reason I do get the sense that Earlier sith like Vitiate liked to REALLY intimidate with their power displays, while later were OCCASSIONALLY more subtle. But in other areas we see them amp it up. I feel mostof Caedus's power displays just arent with Lightning, but I dont think that means they are "weak" displays, I just dont want to focus on 1 Alter power as some determining factor, make sure the best displays for all combatants is considered. We are sure Plageus takes Control??? but as is right now the verdict I would say leans in favor of Plageus, but just for right now.Revan > Jaina in my opinion, and considering he experienced a moment of oneness I'd say he was giving it his all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I honestly wouldnt say Vader's strongest feats are TK, nor would I necisarily say Plagueis out did him. Plagueis out did Pre-ANH Vader that is for sure, but I am less sure on RotJ Vader. That being said Vader is not a Candidate, he is weaker then Caedus, and the results will be the results. I may believe Vader stronger, but my beliefs could be wrong so I am just going to look at each piece 1 by 1 and make judgements as they come. Yes, that's true. But Plagueis' most impressive telekinetic feats were done when he was in a state of near-death and prior to him increasing his power (theoretically doubling it). Best to work with what we know in this case. But you are correct in that Vader isn't a candidate. Not yet, anyway. Later he will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 You want to argue it? Because I'm pretty sure he does. well considering I dont think Midi chlorian manipulation is a Control feat (I find it more alter) yes, I would argue everything he did Caedus did just as well if not better. at least looking at the side by side. (also dont consider putting people to sleep control either I consider it Alter) I would think Saba and Luke have better senses then some of the masters of the Pre-quel era considering how powerful Luke is and Saba's own accolades with Senses. So I would consider Caedus's Cloak feat better then Plageus's. Their Force Valor is similar, but again if I really had to pick I would lean towards Caedus. Also an important question I feel, and some what off topic for control... How did Plageus manipulate midichlorians? what did he do to achieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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