cs_zoltan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 We also know that he achieved a level of corporeal immortality and could resurrect the dead. He could also create life. My problem with midi-chlorian manipulation is that he is the ONLY one who ever done it. So it's obviously needs a LOT of knowledge. That aside, as you said, it also needs a great deal of power. But how great? We don't know because it's unprecedented. Sidious has great power. But also Shaak Ti (for example) has great power, albeit on a different scale but she is powerful none the less. So what magnitude of power really is required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 My problem with midi-chlorian manipulation is that he is the ONLY one who ever done it. So it's obviously needs a LOT of knowledge. That aside, as you said, it also needs a great deal of power. But how great? We don't know because it's unprecedented. Sidious has great power. But also Shaak Ti (for example) has great power, albeit on a different scale but she is powerful none the less. So what magnitude of power really is required? Well, I think midi-chlorian manipulation is both knowledge and power. You need to know how to manipulate them, but you also need the strength to do it. Remember that the midi-chlorians work in concert to repel attack, heck they even work with the imposer, as Plagueis himself noted. It requires both, and obviously requires a great deal because one is essentially fighting the Will of the Force in living beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well, I think midi-chlorian manipulation is both knowledge and power. You need to know how to manipulate them, but you also need the strength to do it. Remember that the midi-chlorians work in concert to repel attack, heck they even work with the imposer, as Plagueis himself noted. It requires both, and obviously requires a great deal because one is essentially fighting the Will of the Force in living beings. Indeed. Still we don't know how great. Like this great or this great? Yes midi-chlorian manipulation is a great feat for Plagueis, and proves he is strong. But lacks the context to rank the scale of the feat. If you get what I'm saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Indeed. Still we don't know how great. Like this great or this great? Yes midi-chlorian manipulation is a great feat for Plagueis, and proves he is strong. But lacks the context to rank the scale of the feat. If you get what I'm saying? Totally get it. It is difficult to rank. But if we consider the nature of midi-chlorians and Plagueis' experiences with them, we can assume that it would require a great deal of power to manipulate. He essentially has to overwhelm the combined strength of his own midi-chlorians and the midi-chlorians of the subject. They use the Force to defend themselves and are embodiments of the Force's Will in organic beings. I feel that this is implication enough that it requires a great deal of power to manipulate them, let along force them to obey his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Totally get it. It is difficult to rank. But if we consider the nature of midi-chlorians and Plagueis' experiences with them, we can assume that it would require a great deal of power to manipulate. He essentially has to overwhelm the combined strength of his own midi-chlorians and the midi-chlorians of the subject. They use the Force to defend themselves and are embodiments of the Force's Will in organic beings. I feel that this is implication enough that it requires a great deal of power to manipulate them, let along force them to obey his will. Yes, but how great? Nah, just kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yes, but how great? Nah, just kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 http://youtu.be/S_Na-l7GzgY?t=1m40s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 http://youtu.be/S_Na-l7GzgY?t=1m40s Such sadness, much tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I feel like Caedus is being somewhat over-looked, Beni already proved he's stronger than the Sith Emperor and his sheer amount of esoteric knowledge and skill is incomparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I feel like Caedus is being somewhat over-looked, Beni already proved he's stronger than the Sith Emperor and his sheer amount of esoteric knowledge and skill is incomparable. Both statements you made her is wrong, bro/girlski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) LeGenD was defeated by Beni long ago in a Caedus vs Vitiate debate and he admitted as much. Caedus has more esoteric knowledge and command over those powers than anyone, even Luke. Read fate of the jedi. Not to mention he has dominated many others including Ben and Jaina consistently. Edited January 20, 2015 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) LeGenD was defeated by Beni long ago in a Caedus vs Vitiate debate *checks under pants* And yeah, I'm not LeGenD, not sure why that matters? and he admitted as much. Only a couple posts ago LeGenD was saying Vitiate >> Caedus, so naw. Caedus has more esoteric knowledge and command over those powers than anyone, even Luke. I disagree, Luke learned majority of the powers Caedus learned during his exile tour of the galaxy. Read fate of the jedi. I read it. Twice. Not to mention he has dominated many others including Ben and Jaina consistently And Revan dominated a Strike Team far more powerful then Ban and Jaina, your point? // off to bed though, midterms tomorrow, cya. Edited January 20, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I feel like Caedus is being somewhat over-looked, Beni already proved he's stronger than the Sith Emperor and his sheer amount of esoteric knowledge and skill is incomparable. I think it's possible. Honestly, I'm still not sure who goes to #4. I think Caedus has some good advantages over Vitiate, but the same could be said in reverse. I'd have to think more on it. I never really participated in that discussion in the last iteration of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I feel like Caedus is being somewhat over-looked, Beni already proved he's stronger than the Sith Emperor and his sheer amount of esoteric knowledge and skill is incomparable. I dont know, in my assessment Caedus won the number 4 spot.... so there is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Double post. Edited January 20, 2015 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) *checks under pants* And yeah, I'm not LeGenD, not sure why that matters? Only a couple posts ago LeGenD was saying Vitiate >> Caedus, so naw. I disagree, Luke learned majority of the powers Caedus learned during his exile tour of the galaxy. I read it. Twice. And Revan dominated a Strike Team far more powerful then Ban and Jaina, your point? // off to bed though, midterms tomorrow, cya. LeGenD is a better SWTOR debater than you are, that is the point. Because LeGenD has apparent memory loss, he lost the argument once in the previous iteration of this thread, he'll lose to Beni again. Luke is the one who stated Caedus learned far more about the esoteric aspects of the Force than he ever had. Missing the point altogether and no they are not more powerful. 1.Caedus was stripping, repairing and re-stripping Ben's connection to the Force at will with ease, Jaina despite being arguably the most well rounded and trained combatant in the Order by that time could do nothing when Caedus kept his focus on her. 2. Ben Skywalker and Jaina Solo are both very powerful, especially Jaina and she has routinely blitzed Sith Sabers and others whilst injured, at one point without use of her legs. 3.Revan is irrelevant here, you don't have to **** him in all your posts you know. Edited January 20, 2015 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Please excuse if I have miss understood the rules...if I haven't there is a candidate that I think is missing. Mace Windu. If I have misunderstood, tell me and I will overwrite the post. Now while he does not specifically demonstrate a crazy level of force ability via telekinesis etc BUT if the way the force is explained is correct he would be a more than viable candidate. First obviously one can not be a slouch when leading the Jedi Council but this obviously would not be enough. Now admittedly my evidence is based mostly on Vaapad...but here me out. First developing a light saber style that is strengthened not only from your own command of the force but being able to draw on the dark side strength of your opponent shows a profound knowledge of the force. Second in Episode V Yoda does a lot of talking about how what you can with the Force (big F) has A LOT to do with your belief and force of will (small f). If this is the case I think Windu has arguably demonstrated more force of will than most Jedi. As he is the only person to practice the Vaapad variation of Form VII without going to the Dark Side. To be able to use this style with such clear effectiveness, to essentially as Palpatine says "let the hate flow through you" and yet not be corrupted by it shows an INCREDIBLE strength of Will. In essence he doesn't fight against the darkness with light he embraces the darkness to fight darkness...yet allows the darkness to simply flow away when done and he then stands uncorrupted and still in the light. He isn't basically both like Revan. He doesn't appear to be gray either...he is a True Jedi who can not just gaze into BUT walk into the Abyss, then turn around and walk right out again into the light. Now some have walked into darkness and come back...after succumbing to the darkness and either through great personal struggle or, more often, through outside intervention come back to the light but Windu essentially does this at will when ever he fights with no visible cost. I can't think of a single person in Canon or Legends who demonstrates such strength of will and, if strength of will is directly correlated to strength and skill in using the force, I think Mace is worthy of at least being subject to debate if not actually on the short list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I did nominate Windu as a potential Candidate for number 4 as well, but the powers that be decided not to take him as a "serious" number 4 candidate. Though that does mark a second person that wants to see a Windu comparison along side the other 4 candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 LeGenD was defeated by Beni long ago in a Caedus vs Vitiate debate and he admitted as much. Caedus has more esoteric knowledge and command over those powers than anyone, even Luke. Read fate of the jedi. Not to mention he has dominated many others including Ben and Jaina consistently. Unfortunately though Esoteric knowledge is not power, for the same reason sorcery is not. The powers are almost impossible to defend against because no one has ever seen them in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Unfortunately though Esoteric knowledge is not power, for the same reason sorcery is not. The powers are almost impossible to defend against because no one has ever seen them in action. Doesn't that depend on the circumstance and the nature of the knowledge/sorcery? I can have more raw power... But if my opponent can "dodge" my power and then kick me in the berries (metaphorically speaking) the other guy is standing over me while I am on the ground in the fetal position whimpering. Now in an outright Force "weight lifting" contest Luke is stronger, I do not think that is really debatable. However I would say that like most things "power" is a combination of strength and knowledge. To use another analogy say person A) can lift 200 lbs and person B) 275 lbs. B) is clearly stronger. However when it comes time to lift something person A) pulls out a lever or some other form of mechanical advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Unfortunately though Esoteric knowledge is not power, for the same reason sorcery is not. The powers are almost impossible to defend against because no one has ever seen them in action. Sorcery and esoteric techniques learned from Force sects are nothing alike. Caedus was never gifted in Battle Meditation, but he became so powerful he could learn it on his own. His abilities in other techniques such as manipulating the workings of his own body are unprecedented feats unreplicated before himself. Taking a saber through the stomach or having his arm taken off had little effect on him. Need I point out his own Tutaminis feats? he has absorbed turbolaser shots before, a greater feat than DE Luke's absorbing of AT-AT fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Sorcery and esoteric techniques learned from Force sects are nothing alike. Caedus was never gifted in Battle Meditation, but he became so powerful he could learn it on his own. His abilities in other techniques such as manipulating the workings of his own body are unprecedented feats unreplicated before himself. Taking a saber through the stomach or having his arm taken off had little effect on him. Need I point out his own Tutaminis feats? he has absorbed turbolaser shots before, a greater feat than DE Luke's absorbing of AT-AT fire. What is with the sorcery hate? If we are talking about what I think we are, Sith Magic, it is seen as a way to actually get MORE powerful. Bane said it allowed people to channel the dark side to maximum effect, in ways even he, the prophesized Sith'ari was unable to do as when he says to Zannah when she asks if she could be a Sith Sorcerer "A rare few have a natural affinity for the dark side itself. They can delve into the depths of the Force and summon arcane energies to twist and warp the world around them. They can invoke ancient rituals of the Sith; they can invoke power and unleash terrible spells and dark magics." So why is sorcery constantly pooh poohed on? You are still using the dark side of the Force and from everything I have read in the EU/Legends books it is damn powerful. The only difference is how the power is channeled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Sorcery and esoteric techniques learned from Force sects are nothing alike. Caedus was never gifted in Battle Meditation, but he became so powerful he could learn it on his own. His abilities in other techniques such as manipulating the workings of his own body are unprecedented feats unreplicated before himself. Taking a saber through the stomach or having his arm taken off had little effect on him. Need I point out his own Tutaminis feats? he has absorbed turbolaser shots before, a greater feat than DE Luke's absorbing of AT-AT fire. Plenty of greats have "learned" battle meditation, so no. And learning it from the force is the very definition of being gifted in it. Yoda did manipulating his own body better, and it's not like being good in one area makes you the best overall. Turbolasers are great and all, but also not. DE Sidious + Dooku put out more power than a Turbolaser, as evidenced by the fact Starkiller's lightning did better against AT-AT's than Turbolasers, but was schooled like a child against Sidious. And yet I'm not putting Talzin at #2 because she did far better than Yoda on Tutaminis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Go ahead and name four. Yoda's was nothing alike, at all. Not to mention Caedus can take his body beyond it's limits and suffer no repercussions. Oh and turbolasers aren't great, what? Turbolasers have the power to level city blocks in two or three shots, and Caedus absorbed one, that kind of control is as top as it gets. Starkiller was using oneness and Yoda's feat is superior to Talzin's. Yoda's and Starkiller's tutaminis feats are almost exactly the same, Yoda pressed his Tutaminis to a point where the energy exploded on both himself and Sidious. Starkiller did the same thing but was experiencing oneness as he did it, then he died. Edited January 20, 2015 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Go ahead and name four. Yoda's was nothing alike, at all. Not to mention Caedus can take his body beyond it's limits and suffer no repercussions. Oh and turbolasers aren't great, what? Turbolasers have the power to level city blocks in two or three shots, and Caedus absorbed one, that kind of control is as top as it gets. Starkiller was using oneness and Yoda's feat is superior to Talzin's. Yoda's and Starkiller's tutaminis feats are almost exactly the same, Yoda pressed his Tutaminis to a point where the energy exploded on both himself and Sidious. Starkiller did the same thing but was experiencing oneness as he did it, then he died. I'm not going to get into the whole turbo laser thing because they come in everything from ones that can be put on a small craft to capital ship sizes. Kinda like cannon...u can have a "small" one on a light tank that go 1000-2000 meters and then the 16 inch behemoth on an Iowa class that throws shells that weigh as much as a Volkswagen 36,000 meters (not a typo...max range is 36 kms) However Sidious schooled Starkiller... Yoda did what you note... so things just didn't seem to track in terms of Tazlin > Yoda. Edited January 20, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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