Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Amusingly, I can imagine something like this going down... Darth Musco: I have received troubling reports concerning the Star Wars Discussion section... Mr. Musco is the supreme overlord of our wondrous utopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Talzin summary complete, sent to you both Aurbere and Beni. Since we've done Caedus and Vitiate already, I/we can post the Talzin/Plagueis one whenever I guess Aurbere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Talzin summary complete, sent to you both Aurbere and Beni. Since we've done Caedus and Vitiate already, I/we can post the Talzin/Plagueis one whenever I guess Aurbere. OK, I'll give it a good read and then send the Plagueis stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Whoops! I think I forgot to patch Beni in on that message! Edit: There, sent him a separate message. Edited January 19, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Alright, everything seems in order, so I'm going to go ahead and post my Plagueis post. For Darth Plagueis’ feats, I will also include theories and ideas provided in this thread, which people seemed to have no issue with. With that in mind, here we go! Control Darth Plagueis was a master of tutaminis. He was able to absorb multiple blaster bolts and turn the energy into bolts of Force lightning that could obliterate the bones of non Force sensitive targets. His mastery of Force Valor was extreme. During the Maladian attack on the Canted Circle, he suffered tremendous injuries including: a severed trachea, massive blood loss, and multiple stab wounds. The injuries themselves caused the malfunction of two of his three hearts and nearly killed him then and there. Despite these injuries, Plagueis was able to fight on and increase his strength and speed to levels beyond what even some of the greatest Force users were capable of. He was able to drive fists through armored torsos and crush skulls with his bare hands, all of this in a near-death state. His mastery of Force Stealth was also impressive. He was able to operate on Coruscant and even host conversations with multiple Jedi Masters, each of whom possessing powerful Sense abilities, without being detected for what he truly was. He was also a capable user of healing techniques. He was able to regulate his bodily functions and heal others. However, his healing could not save those too near death. Finally, he was a master of midi-chlorian manipulation, essentially the manipulation of the Force’s biological messengers. Through his understanding of the midi-chlorians, he was able to prod them to create life. Indeed, he actually creates zygotes in female creatures and even resurrects the dead. He was also able to kill subjects by forcing the midi-chlorians to return to their source, basically willing the subject to die. He also manipulated his own midi-chlorians by forcing them to replicate, theoretically increasing his own strength in the Force, and even reverse the damage done to his body by attacks and aging, effectively achieving a level of immortality. The thing to remember about midi-chlorians is that they are vessels of the Force’s Will and possess a collective power that they use to actively resist any attempts to be imposed upon. In order to manipulate them, Plagueis had to effectively defy the Will of the Force as well as overpower the resistance from his own midi-chlorians. This serves as an impressive display of strength in the Force to force not only his own midi-chlorians but the midi-chlorians of his subject as well. Sense Plaguies possessed considerable powers of foresight prior to be infected by maxi-chlorians, however his ability in that area dulled after that particular event. He was, however, skilled in telepathy and could use his highly developed senses to perceive the midi-chlorians of others. He could also probe the minds of Force resistant species, even Hutts. Alter Darth Plagueis possessed considerable skills in mental manipulation. Even as a child he was able to mentally influence others, even provoking them to suicide. As an adult, he was able to mentally influence others and even project Force-based illusions to deceive others. Though not often applied, he was skilled in the use of Force lightning. His tutaminis-enhanced blasts could instantly kill targets and reduce their bones to powder. He could even pour lightning into people to kill them with subtlety. He possessed a mastery of telekinesis. He was easily capable of lifting multiple large objects, or hurling multiple objects with a gesture. Even when being killed by Sidious, he was capable of summoning a telekinetic assault. However, his greatest feats of telekinesis came in the form of his Force Pushes and Waves. As I discussed in my thread (linked above), Plagueis was able to create massively powerful Waves of Force energy that could replicate damage that an explosive could cause. He was able to throw and ‘all but atomize’ multiple enemies—half a dozen or more—at a time. He was also able to summon enough strength to make the ground shake, throwing down multiple enemies simultaneously. Plagueis could also summon powerful screams in the Force that could break eardrums of nearby assailants. He was also masterful in summoning shields of Force energy that could deflect attacks from multiple attackers. What is important to remember that many of Plagueis’ greatest feats were accomplished when he was at a point of near-death. He was forced to devote massive amounts of Force energy to his application of Force Valor in order to fight back, maintaining his bodily functions so he didn’t fall unconscious or die, defend himself from attack, and unleash powerful attacks that few have matched. Logically, the magnitude of his abilities displayed during the Maladian attack was not his maximum, and he is most likely capable of even greater devastation. Indeed, that was even before he increased his midi-chlorian count, which would theoretically increase his strength in the Force. One last thing. Plagueis developed several theories about how he could apply midi-chlorian manipulation. While I do not think he could achieve the analogs of Fold Space and Flow walking, I do believe that he could use the Sever Force analog. Sever Force effectively causes a mass die-off of midi-chlorians, reducing the Force potential of targeted subjects to a point where they can’t use the Force. I believe that Plagueis could accomplish the same with midi-chlorian manipulation, basically killing off a sufficient number of midi-chlorians to prevent a Force user from using the Force. Theoretically, he could also restore their connection to the Force by replicating their midi-chlorians. But that’s all theory, of course. Still, it’s interesting to think about, right? Your turn, Sel! Edited January 19, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) One other thing about the Sever Force theory, Plagueis himself says that killing off midi-chlorians is far easier than causing them to create life. And we also know that he has killed off midi-chlorians. So that's another reason to think he could do it if he tried. Edited January 19, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Behold, Mother Talzin's power broken down into three categories; Control, Sense and Alter. Control: Using her knowledge of sorcery that holds no equal, Talzin was capable of bolstering her strength, enough so that she managed to overpower Master Windu in a lightsaber block. She has shown the ability of force flight as well, using it to levitate and fly great distances without respite. She has shown the ability to bolster the physical aspects of anyone she so chooses, turning Savage Opress into a fearsome dark side warrior and remolding Darth Maul's body into a pure physical weapon. Talzin has also shown the ability to turn herself or others into mere shadows, barely visible to the naked eye. Along with this she has managed to turn her own being into Dust, keeping her spirit together through sheer force of will, and allowing her to traverse Space freely to escape and fight another day. Talzin has shown unfathomably impressive ability in Tutaminis. She managed to dissipate and hold off the combined Force Lightning of Darth Sidious and Count Dooku for 29 seconds (estimated, though minimum) , after already engaging in a lightning competition for an extended period of time. Her force barrier (Tutaminis) has also been shown to deflect blaster bolts without a whim. Sense: We do not have much insight into Talzin's sense category in the form of actual feats. She has shown the ability to form talismans that can trace people from across the Galaxy. She managed to locate a single being from across the Galaxy in a matter of seconds when asked to by Master Kenobi and Master Skywalker, an art the Nightsisters called Scrying. She showed impressive domination when she invaded the mind of Count Dooku. She has mastered the ability of the Blood Hunt, which is being able to sense a person from anywhere by a single drop of blood. She herself totes that she is a master of Divination (Or Heartshadow) which calls forth visions of possible futures. Through this art, she supposedly witnessed the fall of Empires yet to come, and had devised plans to keep the Nightsisters alive until a time when they may once more flourish. Alter: Talzin's most impressive abilities lie in the field of Alter, in my opinion. She showed the ability to invade minds carelessly when she took control of Count Dooku, turning him against his former master. She also displayed her talent in Mesmerism when she placed Savage Opress under her command and forced him to kill his only brother, who he loved dearly. She has shown Telekinetic mastery, not just in raw power but in skill. She has manipulated objects with ease on multiple occasions, and has even levitated the bodies of Savage Opress and Darth Maul while also performing intricate rituals on them simultaneously. Ventress notes that only Shamans like Talzin can manipulate Spirit Ichor due to how difficult it is, and that those who can are never unarmed. This was obviously a taxing art, yet Talzin managed to use it while levitating and controlling an immensely powerful Sith Lord. Alter yet again came into play against Count Dooku when she attacked him from across the Galaxy using sorcery, appearing even as an apparition to taunt him. Talzin shows skill in TK by ripping apart and reforming Stone, breaking it down into a molecular level only to build it up again in order to traverse into hidden chambers in her village. She shows the same skill when she transforms gaseous Spirit Ichor into liquid, and then again into Solids. The clan mother also shows her raw power in the force in the form of the emerald Lightning she wields. She managed to stalemate a Lightning competition with Sidious, burn through dozens of Battle Droids in the space of 4 seconds and even force Mace Windu onto the retreat, fearing her aggressive lightning attacks. Overall I believe Talzin has some impressive displays of raw power against Sidious, Dooku and other powerhouses of the Clone Wars Era, and she shows masterful display of the rudimentary aspects of the force that enforces that conclusion. She certainly deserves a spot on this list, but where, that's for you to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Talzin's awesome. Her displays of power are incredibly impressive and she constantly dominates someone as powerful as Dooku in a variety of ways. She was meant to be in the top-tier of her era. Considering that only two individuals are in that tier, it's safe to say that she would make this list, easily. Also, Sel, it looks like you forgot to mention her Life Draining that she did to Dooku. Almost murdered him with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Talzin's awesome. Her displays of power are incredibly impressive and she constantly dominates someone as powerful as Dooku in a variety of ways. She was meant to be in the top-tier of her era. Considering that only two individuals are in that tier, it's safe to say that she would make this list, easily. Also, Sel, it looks like you forgot to mention her Life Draining that she did to Dooku. Almost murdered him with it. I wasn't sure what to put that under, but since she did it in spirit form (IE, She was basically dead) I decided to leave it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) I wasn't sure what to put that under, but since she did it in spirit form (IE, She was basically dead) I decided to leave it out. She did a lot in spirit form, I think. I'm trying to remember when she transformed into a spirit in relation to her other feats. But I'm guessing they would be excluded because she was a spirit. Edit: For future reference, I would put Drain life and powers like it under Alter. Edited January 19, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 She did a lot in spirit form, I think. I'm trying to remember when she transformed into a spirit in relation to her other feats. But I'm guessing they would be excluded because she was a spirit. She died against Windu after Jar Jar shattered that orb, so no, the only thing she did as a literal spirit was against Dooku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 She died against Windu after Jar Jar shattered that orb, so no, the only thing she did as a literal spirit was against Dooku. Oh, she did? OK, well that makes sense then. So I guess she can just evaporate herself at her leisure then. That's really awesome actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Oh, she did? OK, well that makes sense then. So I guess she can just evaporate herself at her leisure then. That's really awesome actually. That's the consensus. She said it was resurrecting maul that she lost her energies, I'm honestly not sure, but it would seem she was close to death, that orb was her final chance at replenishing herself and she died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That's the consensus. She said it was resurrecting maul that she lost her energies, I'm honestly not sure, but it would seem she was close to death, that orb was her final chance at replenishing herself and she died. Interesting. I always thought that she was in spirit form during that time, but that makes more sense. It's been a while since I've watched TCW, so I don't remember a whole lot of Talzin's feats. Thanks for clearing that up. Where do you put Talzin in relation to Gethzerion? And do you think both could make this list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Interesting. I always thought that she was in spirit form during that time, but that makes more sense. It's been a while since I've watched TCW, so I don't remember a whole lot of Talzin's feats. Thanks for clearing that up. Where do you put Talzin in relation to Gethzerion? And do you think both could make this list? I rate Talzin much higher, her best attacks and power displays were sorcery, and just as I don't say Talzin could one shot Dooku, I don't think we should take Geth's sorcery displays too seriously now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I rate Talzin much higher, her best attacks and power displays were sorcery, and just as I don't say Talzin could one shot Dooku, I don't think we should take Geth's sorcery displays too seriously now. I feel the same. I'm not sure where I rate her regrading our four candidates, though. I think she's better than any of the other people suggested for candidacy, but where she fits in regarding these four is what I'm having issue with. She isn't out of her league, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am kind of waiting for all 4 to be placed in a side by side before I look into each catagory and make a choice. I guess we kind of have the other 2 already... so I guess I could write my initial assessment of each category and make my "judgement" on which is #4 worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I am kind of waiting for all 4 to be placed in a side by side before I look into each catagory and make a choice. I guess we kind of have the other 2 already... so I guess I could write my initial assessment of each category and make my "judgement" on which is #4 worthy. I could go find the comparisons from the last one and put them side by side if you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I could go find the comparisons from the last one and put them side by side if you need them. That would be nice, it makes it easier on me just to do my system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That would be nice, it makes it easier on me just to do my system. OK, give me a few minutes and then I'll get it set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 1. I wonder how much is the knowledge/power ratio in the midi-chlorian manipulation. 2. I think a lot of Talzins feats were amped since she was always on Dathomir. Standing up to Sidious might be the most accurate of her showings imo Since Sidious was probably amped too (Dathomir is a DS nexus afterall, right?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 1. I wonder how much is the knowledge/power ratio in the midi-chlorian manipulation. 2. I think a lot of Talzins feats were amped since she was always on Dathomir. Standing up to Sidious might be the most accurate of her showings imo Since Sidious was probably amped too (Dathomir is a DS nexus afterall, right?). 1. It is stated that the midi-chlorians resist the imposition, so it would require power in order to actually manipulate them. 2. It is stated as a Dark Side nexus in EaW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 1. It is stated that the midi-chlorians resist the imposition, so it would require power in order to actually manipulate them. 2. It is stated as a Dark Side nexus in EaW. Indeed, but she was weakened to be honest. She has a lot of good accolades that support the fact it wasn't just amps though, "Immensely powerful" and "Can go toe to toe with Darth Sidious" among the finest. We don't exclude Vitiate from this list for the reason of Nexus'... Not to mention, she did fine against Windu on Zardossa Six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Indeed, but she was weakened to be honest. She has a lot of good accolades that support the fact it wasn't just amps though, "Immensely powerful" and "Can go toe to toe with Darth Sidious" among the finest. We don't exclude Vitiate from this list for the reason of Nexus'... Not to mention, she did fine against Windu on Zardossa Six. She could probably draw on the Dathomir nexus, though. It probably balances it out, though. But I'm not one to dismiss feats 'because nexus'. That would be very detrimental to arguments of my own. A little thinking can be used when a nexus comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 As long as you understand how nexus' and midichlorians work. That being said, I'm unsure on Talzin vs Plagueis, though I don't put either above Revan and Caedus. To be honest, I put other characters above the two as well. Talzin's showings are all over the place to being able to challenge Sidious and Mace to getting *****ed by Grievous alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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