cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 http://i.imgur.com/L4VS6eu.gif If Sel doesn't do something about this, then I will Don't wait for others all the time. Have something to say? Say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Don't wait for others all the time. Have something to say? Say it. If you have something to say Aurbere, say it. All I was saying, was that if Vader/SK took positions 8 and 9, then the only other position is 10. I wasn't ever saying that Vader/SK>Revan, simply that, if that is the way the order falls, then the number 10 position is the only one left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Side Note: Earlier we talked about expanding the jedi/sith lists to 15 or 20. I think if Starkiller and/or Revan falls off of this list we should expand to 11-12 (or if people want even number 15 ), because I don't think either of them should be on the jedi nor the sith list. Edited August 18, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Don't wait for others all the time. Have something to say? Say it. Sure, I'll have to get some quotes, but I can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Alright to put this thread in gear here's my opinion on Control: Force Augmentation: Don't really have an opinion on it, Krayt and Vader's feats being pre-prime makes it very speculative. Krayt's Dark Transfer vs Vader's and Starkiller's endurance. I'm in disagreement with Beni, I find the later more impressive to be honest. My analog might be inaccurate, but if you think of DT as a key (key to healing in this case), then what is more impressive: Breaking a door in, or unlocking it with a key? I also don't think willpower should be frowned upon. Willpower can only get you so far. Coleman Trebor could have all the willpower in the world, he still won't be able to conjure a Force Storm. Coming back from the dead is within Vader's power, willpower or no willpower. Essence Transfer: It's kinda hard to put this in perspective since Vader and SK don't really have any spiritual feats. And Krayt's is mostly based on his opinion, . Also Vader could regain his identity after death. Overall I'm going with Vader/SK. If Krayt would be their clear superior it would manifest even in the basic Control feats, not just esoteric powers.Problem with this stance is that you're treating the key as if it were given, it was not, it was dearly bought. Krayt had to take frikken locksmith classes to get that key, and with those skills he can open any door, even the ones Vader or Marek can't break down. It's got nothing to do with willpower, just capability. And that's a result of his mastery over the Force, not innate ability. Indeed with DK there really isn't anything Vader or Marek has endured that Krayt could not, and then some. Finally you say he lacks basic control feats but you'll have to be more clear, even before he mastered dark transfer Krayt withstood the effects of Vong parasites and rendered himself practically immortal. Call then esoteric powers if you will but I call them advanced, which demands mastery of the basics. Edited August 18, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 If learning DT is such a big feat that it puts Krayt above Vader and SK, then you can put Darth Andeddu and Karness Muur above them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Erm I don't think Anneddu or Muur learned Dark Transfer, though Muur is very likely more powerful regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Erm I don't think Anneddu or Muur learned Dark Transfer, though Muur is very likely more powerful regardless. Wasn't Muur one of the ones that taught Krayt the technique...? *I don't know legacy era so not sure* Along that train of thought, Set Harth would be over Darth Vader due to having mastered Essence transfer, but we ALL know that is incorrect. Though, since Vader has already done the whole 'bring himself back from the dead' shtick, doesn't that make it a bit... strange to put Krayt over him for this ability alone? Edited August 18, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Wasn't Muur one of the ones that taught Krayt the technique...? *I don't know legacy era so not sure* Along that train of thought, Set Harth would be over Darth Vader due to having mastered Essence transfer, but we ALL know that is incorrect. Though, since Vader has already done the whole 'bring himself back from the dead' shtick, doesn't that make it a bit... strange to put Krayt over him for this ability alone?As far as I know Krayt's near death experience gave him the clarity he needed to understand and master the power, I can't think under what circumstances the man in part responsible for his "death" could have taught him while I'm stasis. You're assuming essence transfer is at all comparable, lets not assume that all estoreric powers are the same. Follow that trail of thought and Mother Talzin's ability to dematerialise is just a parlor trick. And difference between Vader and Krayt as I covered is that for Vader wasn't as literal, Krayt actually died pretty much. However what's important is that he mastered the ability, and can do more than just will himself back from the brink. Edited August 18, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) As far as I know Krayt's near death experience gave him the clarity he needed to understand and master the power, I can't think under what circumstances the man in part responsible for his "death" could have taught him while I'm stasis. You're assuming essence transfer is at all comparable, lets not assume that all estoreric powers are the same. Follow that trail of thought and Mother Talzin's ability to dematerialise is just a parlor trick. And difference between Vader and Krayt as I covered is that for Vader wasn't as literal, Krayt actually died pretty much. However what's important is that he mastered the ability, and can do more than just will himself back from the brink. Well, both Dark Transfer and Essance Transfer focus on defeating death, so they are at least some-what comparable. One brings peoples bodies back to life, the other steals bodies in a battle of wills. As for Will vs Exotic Power, I am sure that without the force Vader's force of will would of meant nothing. Kinda reminds me of Darth Sion the way it is described. Both bring the person back to life. Albeit, Vader's will can't save others, not that he really cared to. Nor does it say brink, it says dead. Side Note: Another way of looking at it is one having a specific tool to do something, and the other just... doing it. Edited August 18, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yeah, Sil.... Vader's rage bringing him back in severely diminished physical condition with immense effort, vs a power that revived Krayt in any body, killed with a touch and brought anyone back from the dead? Slightly different Because in case you guys aren't aware, Krayt killed Cade Skywalker and brought him back to life simply because he could... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Erm I don't think Anneddu or Muur learned Dark Transfer, though Muur is very likely more powerful regardless. *Shrug* Krayt revealed to Cade that he also learned how to control the Dark transfer from Cade, Darth Andeddu, and Karness Muur, and used it to resurrect himself after his murder by Darth Wyyrlok. He used it to simultaneously kill and revive Cade Skywalker to sway him to the dark side, but Cade resisted and used the opportunity to finally defeat Krayt. Source: Wookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I don't understand why you focusing so much on an esoteric power. Cadeus' esoteric powers were dismissed out of hand, and now you pushing for Krayt in Control based on not one, but two esoteric powers? Seems a tad biased. Also considering how Krayt learned it, it was impossible for both Vader and SK to learn it. Starkiller has very powerful force lightning. Vader can't use it. Yet Starkiller was never placed above Vader because of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 *Shrug* "I needed to experience death to understand how you did it. But you showed me how to use the Dark Transfer of energy, how to heal..." Not seeing any mention of Muur or Andeddu, not in the time Wookieepedia references tbh. But I guess they might have been credited it in another source somewhere? Not that it changes anything, DT isn't our singular reason for having Krayt where he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I don't understand why you focusing so much on an esoteric power. Cadeus' esoteric powers were dismissed out of hand, and now you pushing for Krayt in Control based on not one, but two esoteric powers? Seems a tad biased. Also considering how Krayt learned it, it was impossible for both Vader and SK to learn it. Starkiller has very powerful force lightning. Vader can't use it. Yet Starkiller was never placed above Vader because of that... Again, it's retaining ones existence in the void. That's the most important part tbh. It's a feat for Palpatine, it's a feat for Talzin, it should be a feat for Krayt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Again, it's retaining ones existence in the void. That's the most important part tbh. It's a feat for Palpatine, it's a feat for Talzin, it should be a feat for Krayt. A feat that you can't compare them with. There's strenght, there's speed, there's endurance in Control. Why push for something only Krayt did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 A feat that you can't compare them with. There's strenght, there's speed, there's endurance in Control. Why push for something only Krayt did? "Why compare Vader and Palpatine with Force Storm because Vader can't use Lightning" Only Krayt being able to do it is kind of the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 "Why compare Vader and Palpatine with Force Storm because Vader can't use Lightning" Only Krayt being able to do it is kind of the point. Because only he had the means to learn it. Which brings us back to the Cadeus analog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 *Mumbles* Technically Vader retained his identity too, just wasn't full dark side when he died over Endor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 *Mumbles* Technically Vader retained his identity too, just wasn't full dark side when he died over Endor... Yeah I brought that up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 *Mumbles* Technically Vader retained his identity too, just wasn't full dark side when he died over Endor... Fair enough, though quotes about Palpatine's methods seem to suggest it's more difficult to actually take over a host body than to stay as a force spirit. Even then, I ask, how do you want to even compare Vader and Krayt in control, Zoltan? They have similar endurance feats (Hit with Lightning numerous times, stabbed in the stomach, thrown over a cliff and still somehow lived) Krayt's got great speed feats and impressive strength. But the medium they're portrayed in is completely different. How do you compare a comic to a novel, placing one description of events above another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Even then, I ask, how do you want to even compare Vader and Krayt in control, Zoltan? They have similar endurance feats (Hit with Lightning numerous times, stabbed in the stomach, thrown over a cliff and still somehow lived) Krayt's got great speed feats and impressive strength. But the medium they're portrayed in is completely different. How do you compare a comic to a novel, placing one description of events above another? It wasn't really a problem before, but we can always take the powescaling route. Surely there is someone in both era with measurable Control feats. Still more accurate than saying Person A has Power 1, while Person B doesn't, hence Person A > Person B. Edited August 18, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Well, like I said, if you go off hype and powerscaling then Krayt is a peer of Caedus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Well, like I said, if you go off hype and powerscaling then Krayt is a peer of Caedus. Do you have the quote you are refering to, I think it would help a lot of people in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Alright I'm just gona say it before this goes further. Don't expect me to concede because you said so. I won't. You can convince me by starting showing quotes (with sources) and scans or whatever. But at this point you aren't trying to convince me, you are trying to force a concession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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