Eastern Philosophy and Jedi Primer...

[Ghisallo]

DISCLAIMER. This is a purely intellectual exercise. The below is simply coming from the knowledge of one who has studied particular philosophies. As Lucas mentioned inspirations from Eastern Philosophies, Bushido and Samurai era based fiction, this is simply an attempt to place certain things in a different context as in a great many ways the Eastern and Western mindsets are different. As will be shown below words translated into english can have a VERY different definition in the East. As such the following is not meant to endorse nor disparage any faith. It is presented simply to provide a context that some people may not have been aware of..

 

 

Okay I am writing this because it is pretty clear from a few threads that people do not understand eastern Philosophy and then apply western philosophy to eastern based statements in the Movies...

 

Please note in this I will first be referring to only new Canon (meaning the movies) as the EU is retconned bye bye. I will also not be referring to inferences (Yoda and Ken Obi not being married) etc. I will simply be taking dialogue and placing it into the correct context.

 

I would love if people would not only debate what I post BUT also post other quotes so we can debate them in the proper context.

 

To begin with people seem to have misunderstanding of Bushido. Bushido is not a unique and individual Philosophy. First Bushido is a modern term, not historical for a warrior code that evolved in medieval Japan. It followed Confucian texts and was also influenced by Shintoism and Zen Buddhism. Due to Zen Buddhism's influence Taoism is also indirectly involved (Zen Buddhism to a large extent is a more simplified version of Taoist philosophy with the trappings of Mahayana Buddhism).

 

(note the below will also be based on the fact that GL himself said that the Jedi order is based on Bushido and has described Jedi as Buddhist monks (not completely divorced are the two, more than one Samurai in history later retired to be a Buddhist monk.)

 

Now with that all in mind the MOST MISUNDERSTOOD exchange in the history of Star Wars.

 

Yoda: "Rejoice for those around us who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed, that is."

 

Anakin: "What must I do, Master Yoda?"

 

Yoda: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."

 

First I would like to eliminate the bolded portion from the discussion. This is shared by eastern and western philosophies/religions (read Christian concept of going to a better place.)

 

Second, and most importantly, attachment does NOT mean an emotional connection, relationship etc in a Buddhist context. Ergo saying "attachment leads to Jealousy" does not mean "love leads to Jealousy." In Buddhism an attachment is a clinging to or a craving in a negative context. We feel attachments only if we mistakenly see ourselves as separate from everything else. We can see that Yoda preaches this in Episode V

 

Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

 

We are all unified... as such there is no need to crave or cling to something else.

 

Because of this false sense of separation we then feel the need to "attach" (read cling) to other people or things. In Buddhism, to be "unattached" means that you are unified with everything... as such there is no need to cling. Now we all know what it means when our paramour says "you are clingie". It is not a good thing.

 

So in the above quote we would see "craving and clinging leads to jealousy".

 

Finally "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."

 

This is a central tenant of Bushido. When you act in ANY fashion, combat, swordsmanship, archery, (yes) flower arranging, calligraphy, even the tea ceremony, anything and every action of import you should have NO fear. Fear can create a loop where you act prematurely and thus make a mistake. Where you fear making a mistake so you hesitate, thus making a mistake. In essence fear of making a mistake, or dying, or losing creates a self fulfilling prophesy.

 

You should be in a state of serenity. If you are in a fight for your life your countenance should be no different than if you were simply walking in your garden on a warm spring day enjoying the breeze and the sents on the air. If your wife or child is endanger to act for them you should be equally serene. Strength of arm and skill with the weapon is NOT enough, you need this psychic strength. You must be able to act in a critical situation as if nothing critical is occurring. Here is a simplified example..

 

 

While Tom Cruise's character is applying this only in context of a sparring match in this scene, that concept "No Mind" should be applied to every facet of one's life. Train yourself to have no mind, no fear, no distraction.

 

There is no chaos... there is serenity.

 

Since I opened the door there.. "There is no passion, there is peace."

 

The Buddha says, from passion arises sorrow and from passion arises fear. If a man is free from passion, he is free from fear and sorrow.

 

The problem is again a DIFFERENT definition of passion. In the Buddah's context Passion means craving and addiction...not the positive emotions we should feel.

 

Thanks to all who bother to read this wall of text. lol

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[tunewalker]

"Attachment is forbbiden"

 

"compasion, which I see as unconditional love.... is ESSENTIAL to a Jedi's life." "So you could say, we are Encouraged to Love...."

 

 

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zouRX2Tw6Ew

Edited January 17, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Well, it's good to see an Eastern perspective on this topic. I remember watching a documentary on Star Wars and GL said that eastern philosophy was a major impact on how he approached the Jedi, IIRC.

[Ghisallo]

He did indeed. I think the problem tbh is the Expanded Universe. There I often got the feeling that the source Lucas cited was lost or ignored.

 

In the west we focus on the obvious, the energizing, the NOW and immediate. In the end it is no less love and compassion than what we would see in a western romance it is it is simply a more temperate and disciplined mind set. It can sometimes be subtle, sometimes gross in the degree of difference but it is a difference I think we need to deal with.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Aurbere]

He did indeed. I think the problem tbh is the Expanded Universe. There I often got the feeling that the source Lucas cited was lost or ignored.

 

In the west we focus on the obvious, the energizing, the NOW and immediate. In the end it is no less love and compassion than what we would see in a western romance it is it is simply a more temperate and disciplined mind set. It can sometimes be subtle, sometimes gross in the degree of difference but it is a difference I think we need to deal with.

 

Well, I try to look at it from the Jedi's perspective when discussing these things, rather than from a Western perspective.

[Ghisallo]

Well, I try to look at it from the Jedi's perspective when discussing these things, rather than from a Western perspective.

 

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically tbh. I just see numerous people on these forums, reddit etc attaching Webster's definition of Passion and Attachment to the Jedi usage of the terms where GL said specifically numerous times that it was an eastern philosophical definition he was using. Occam's razor even says that if the Websters definition was applied in Star Wars, Anakin would have been cast out, and numerous other repercussions would be seen in the movies...even if we want to go beyond new Canon, the EU. We don't see these repercussions though because it is not the Webster's definition of passion, attachment etc that applies to the Jedi, rather the Buddhist.

[Ghisallo]

Now with the basic definitions out of the way...

 

I am going to speak about what I think one of the main hang ups is beyond the definitions. We look and see few, if any Jedi showing what we would call love, and then hear the admonitions. First about love.

 

It is a possessive love that is frowned upon by both the Jedi and the Sith. The Jedi frown upon this kind of Love as it can lead us to where Anakin went. Jealousy and hatred turning him into Vader. Ironically the Dark Side also fears love it could also lead to pity, mercy, self-sacrifice and compassion, as Anakin again demonstrates when he sacrifices himself to save his son and thus also fulfill the prophesy.

 

Loving kindness, compassion, appreciative joy, and a particular form of equanimity are the four kinds of love taught and encouraged in classic Buddhist teachings. While they typically use only the terms compassion and the like, we see all of these in action with Yoda. Can you think of a better example of appreciative joy, than Yoda's reaction here?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jmu2pbAgFw

 

Yoda is living proof that one does not have to purge emotions.

 

The trick is to understand that love may flow from us equally toward all beings without needing to be directed to anyone. It is why attachment is defined the way it is. In short you can not hope to strive for unity with the world around us (the Force) without this. Also as such it MUST NOT be a matter of "falling in love", it is not something that need be left to chance. One should strive to more beyond that so that as we grow closer to true enlightenment we accept that love without any particular object is a form of liberation. We are no longer trapped within ourselves or even by those around us. Our love and compassion reaches all and so we are also (metaphysically speaking) everywhere.

 

The long and the short of it is I think people confuse emotion and love with "passion" (western definition) and Romeo and Juliet kinda emotion and love. That is myopic to say the least.

 

Now onto my conjecture since it is never specifically stated one way or the other in Canon..

 

This I will gladly admit will be a MORE than debatable topic.

 

Marriage/romance...

 

All of this said a Jedi having an INTIMATE type relationship would be and should be quite rare. In essence it would work like that of Buddhist monk irl. First, Many Jedi we see are essentially members of a Monastic order. Not all Jedi, jet across the Universe exploring and fighting bad guys. Many stay in one place studying, training others and simply meditating on the force. As such you would have many who would follow similar rules of chastity and the like. However I do not think this would be universal (and clearly it isn't or in Canon, Anakin and Padmae would have had their relationship stopped, no Theron Shan, no Jedi Knight or consular romance etc.)

 

However the Jedi do not appear to have a formal monastic order so we have to fly by the seat of our pants here.

 

As such I think it would work like this...If you are "just" a Knight or a Consular you could have a relationship BUT you would be watched VERY closely and your advancement would be pretty much stalled....no Jedi Master for you because one would have a duty to one's family that would be seen as distracting from the duties of a Jedi master.

 

An example of this would be Satele Shan. She has a romantic relationship and a child but realizing that her true path is with the Order she dedicates herself to the order. She does NOT turn her back on her love, they still have a bond, mutual respect and work well together. While she has distanced herself from her child, that is likely a twofer reason. First it is a mothers instinct to place her child above everything, she has placed the order in that position. Second, Theron isn't exactly "at peace" with all that happened there either (though is has come to terms with it.)

 

I don't think many Jedi would take this course, simply because they are Jedi's for a reason, they wish to serve the Order to the greatest extent they are capable of. However this does not mean such things are strictly forbidden either, once one reaches a certain specific level of "maturity."

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Aurbere]

You might want to remove the religious commentary. It's against forum rules, I think.

[Jrr_hypernova]

Didn't GL base the Jedi religion of Taoism not buddhism?

[Ghisallo]

You might want to remove the religious commentary. It's against forum rules, I think.

 

GL stated he based the Jedi Order on Buddhist Monks and the concept of the Force on Eastern Philosophy. I am NOT advocating any particular religious belief. All I am doing is A) explaining the Philosophy that GL based it on and thus putting forward the definitions (and real life examples of such definitions) that GL said he used.

 

People say certain things about Jedi... "their philosophy says this... it says that". So if the Jedi and their code are founded in a real world philosophy AND you want to point out that someone may be in error in their interpretation...how do you do this without mentioning the philosophy...

 

I did edit that post however. I am... as my wife curses me at time... "ffing Mr. Spock." I will speak of things from what I feel is a matter of fact point of view (Bob says this) and not think of the fact that maybe someone will assume that means I endorse Bob's statement.

 

(FYI I am an agnostic. I just happened to spend A LOT of time learning some of this stuff due to rl circumstances) So my apologies if it sounds like I am proselytizing. All I am doing is trying to place the Jedi code and the like into the Eastern context it is based on. I will add this disclaimer to the OP)

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Didn't GL base the Jedi religion of Taoism not buddhism?

 

Taoism and Zen Buddhism are VERY similar...tbh Zen Buddhism has been described by some to be (layman's terms) a more digestible version of Taoism. In essence Zen Buddhism is Taoism with the trappings and ceremony of Buddhism added on. That makes a lot of sense too since GL stated that he based a lot of the Jedi Order itself on Bushido (which is in part founded in Zen Buddhism) and even the term Jedi is a derivative of a term that refers to a genre of fiction focused on the Samurai era.

 

because of the similarities in philosophy both have been attributed BUT we know that GL said that the force is based on "Eastern Philosophy" (general term, likely no specific naming to avoid the point raised by another poster...a religious battle) and that the code of Bushido and the period Samurai films of Akira Kurosawa were the inspiration for the Jedi Knights. It is this combination... with examples in the current Canon (Yoda video with the younglings as an example) that I base the above on.

 

The key thing is to stop using western philosophy and ideals when looking at the Jedi in Canon. The Jedi are based in the, at times subtle and at timers gross, different Philosophies of the East. If we apply Western Concepts to the Jedi, we are applying the wrong measure. It would be akin, imo, to saying Da Vinci or Galileo were not geniuses because they did not understand what we learned upto the 20th Century in terms of engineering and science. Cultures can create as broad a gulf between concepts as time.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[IchibanSaru]

Taoism and Zen Buddhism are VERY similar...tbh Zen Buddhism has been described by some to be (layman's terms) a more digestible version of Taoism. In essence Zen Buddhism is Taoism with the trappings and ceremony of Buddhism added on. That makes a lot of sense too since GL stated that he based a lot of the Jedi Order itself on Bushido (which is in part founded in Zen Buddhism) and even the term Jedi is a derivative of a term that refers to a genre of fiction focused on the Samurai era.

 

because of the similarities in philosophy both have been attributed BUT we know that GL said that the force is based on "Eastern Philosophy" (general term, likely no specific naming to avoid the point raised by another poster...a religious battle) and that the code of Bushido and the period Samurai films of Akira Kurosawa were the inspiration for the Jedi Knights. It is this combination... with examples in the current Canon (Yoda video with the younglings as an example) that I base the above on.

 

The key thing is to stop using western philosophy and ideals when looking at the Jedi in Canon. The Jedi are based in the, at times subtle and at timers gross, different Philosophies of the East. If we apply Western Concepts to the Jedi, we are applying the wrong measure. It would be akin, imo, to saying Da Vinci or Galileo were not geniuses because they did not understand what we learned upto the 20th Century in terms of engineering and science. Cultures can create as broad a gulf between concepts as time.

 

The Force is more similar to philosophical Taoism (tao-chia) than Buddhism for no other reason of the concept of the Tai Chi (the supreme ultimate: what we know in the West as Ying-Yang). The concept is that one gave birth to two and then two gave birth the "myriad things" that is the visible/tangible universe.

Much like the concept of the Force, there are two complimentary sides: light and dark, positive and negative, yin and yang. Both require each other in order to make the whole. Balance is sought, but the underlying wisdom declares that conflict/opposition is what creates the world around us. The interaction of yin and yang rather than the supremacy of one over the other.

In Taoism, there are no absolutes. There are degrees of grey going from 99% white to 99% black, but always cycling and giving birth to the other.

According to the commentary track, it was the director of EP5, Ivan Kirschner who gave the Force its Eastern flavor. Yoda is very much in the mold of the traditional Taoist Hermit: appearing to be a carefree fool at the beginning when he meets Luke at his camp and then transforming on a dime to a wise sage figure. Even during his "foolish" act, Yoda spoke wisdom. Once again, this is the traditional Chinese view of a Taoist Hermit. Paintings of Taoist Hermits riding donkeys backward and laughing and dancing is a common motif.

Yoda's "You must unlearn what you have learned" comes from the Taoist concept "The more you know, the less you understand." In other words, you must empty yourself of preconceptions and knowing before you can truly learn.

Lastly the concept of the Force being an energy that flows through everything, binding us and influencing us is a foundational Taoist concept where all life is bound by chi or cosmic energy and like the Force, our physical selves are just manifestations of what we really are.

 

Buddhist see life as an illusion to be lifted from whereas Taoists try to "flow" with the path of nature: the Tao and harmonize with it. The concept of Wu-wei: action through non-action illustrates this. Going with the flow by listening and following the Tao. Buddhism doesn't have that since they consider life as an illusion to be escaped from.

 

My 2 cents

[Ghisallo]

It is similar to Taoism...but then again that is because it is very much similar to Zen Buddhism. The best way I can think of Zen Buddhism vs Taoism is a line I once heard a comedian mentions comparing Roman Catholicism to the Anglican Church. He called the Anglican Church "Catholic light...". Buddhism I think has more " schools" than just about any philosophy out there. I say philosophy because some schools whole heartedly deny they are a religion at all.

 

Many schools of Zen Buddhism are similar to the joke I note above, it is essentially a more digestible version of the Tao, just with Buddhist trappings. I think part of your issue may revolve around the illusion issue. It is confusing as hell because different schools have different views and HEATEDLY argue over the issue. In many schools of Zen Buddhism they do not universally see the illusion as life being a fantasy or not the true reality as some Buddhist schools do.

 

When they speak of illusion, the illusions is instead a belief in some that people are separate from the world around them. Many schools of Zen take this to the point of not caring about questions regarding the after life, what matters is the present moment, here and now (think the Last Samurai with the line "life in every breath"). The idea of existence and non-existence (death) simply isn't important because they are simply relative to one another there is no hard dividing line. So contemplating or fearing death is not only a waste of time but helps to create or maintain the illusion that we are separate instead of unified with the world around us. Beyond this though there is something that transcends all... The Force..../joking Nirvana, which transcends the categories of existence and nonexistence. It's just about understanding and living the Yoda speech, to use the movies as a reference.

 

Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back - "For my ally is the Force " (Forc...: http://youtu.be/HMUKGTkiWik

 

Also the line in the Jedi code..."There is no death, there is the Force" is very similar. It would be VERY hard for the layman to tell the difference between a Zen and Taoist monk based on their words alone they are so similar. Zen can be very similar to Taoism but then again it is different than most forms of Buddhism from everything I have seen.

 

Besides those ideas, my main reason however for believing this is simple logic. Clearly it is based on eastern philosophy. The only bit that Lucas went on the record (that I know of) with, was that the Jedi Knights were based very heavily on Bushido and Samurai. The Bushido code is not something codified in any book or even unique to Samurai, it was rather a social code that was an amalgam of Confucian, Shinto and Zen Buddhist philosophies. It kinda just seems one stop shopping. You look to Bushido and you have not only the image of the Jedi knight but in taking the general teachings of Zen Buddhism that are included in the same source you have the philosophy of the force as well.

 

It also makes sense from a cynically logical point of view. At the time when Empire Strikes Back was being written Zen Buddhism was becoming one of those cool hot topic things in Hollywood, so it would make sense that elements of it would be drawn in if looking for an Eastern Philosophy. Until the Empire Strikes Back we really didn't have a Jedi philosophy our first real glimpse at it was that speech by Yoda.

 

Then again since Zen is Taoist light, with some Buddhist trappings, maybe it doesn't matter? The both largely teach the same concepts just using different metaphors.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Projawa]

How much of this is lost on JJ Abrams and the SW7 writers? Edited March 7, 2015 by Projawa

[Ghisallo]

We'll find out BUT it was also to an extent lost on Lucas. He first referred to being a Force user with an analogy of yoga, saying anyone can do it if they put in the time and effort but most don't. This would fit with the various Eastern Philosophies. After IV came out he came up with the idea of midi-chlorians but was on the fence about them and then finally decided to turn force users into his version of the X-men by introducing them in episode I.

[Projawa]

I'd wager the stories in TOR have more of a philosophical soul than most of the past and upcoming SW films.

Nothing inherently wrong with that. Something tells me JJ Abrams and crew aren't exactly the philosophical type.

[MadDutchman]

The problem I think is Lucas kinda mixed and matched concepts but couldn't get over his own Western mindset (no surprise there really) and so it came out all weird, hence a lot of confusion.

 

Also a lot of problem comes simply in language. SW was written in English, which, like every language, doesn't translate perfectly to other languages, let alone ones that evolved under a totally different ideology. Ideas that were inherently expressed in an Eastern language can be very difficult to communicate in a Western one.

[Ghisallo]

The problem I think is Lucas kinda mixed and matched concepts but couldn't get over his own Western mindset (no surprise there really) and so it came out all weird, hence a lot of confusion.

 

Also a lot of problem comes simply in language. SW was written in English, which, like every language, doesn't translate perfectly to other languages, let alone ones that evolved under a totally different ideology. Ideas that were inherently expressed in an Eastern language can be very difficult to communicate in a Western one.

 

I think you give Lucas too much credit tbh. What happened was simple. He initially took basic Bushido and Zen/Taoist concepts and that was the basis for the Force and the Jedi. Then he just said "my story and I can change my mind if I want to." He has done this multiple times. Jabba the Hutt changing from a human to a slug. Anakin and Vader becoming the same character (that wasn't finalized until he started writing RotJ). Padme dying in child birth... here is the original bit...Leia remembers her...http://youtu.be/MDYX_PgorRY. (The original idea, at least in the RotJ novelization was that Obi Wan took both Padme and Leia into hiding on Alderaan)

 

When Lucas changed things he "remastered" movies (suddenly Leia is remembering through the force just justify his horrible "pity me" Padme who gives to damns about her kids and dies of a broken heart because she fell in love with a mass murderer. To make things worse since he didn't want people seeing how he contradicted the hell out of himself he would not allow the originals to remain in print, even though they were FAR better movies.

 

Sorry its not about George misunderstanding or misinterpreting, or as I noted elsewhere myself western definitions used for terminology... its about George not caring about what he said before, George being unable or unwilling to keep a consistent narrative and then essentially going back to his own works with an eraser and penciling in new BS for whatever reason.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Projawa]

Wasn't the core plot/structure of Episode IV heavily based on The Hidden Fortress?

[Ghisallo]

Wasn't the core plot/structure of Episode IV heavily based on The Hidden Fortress?

 

It was heavily influenced and C3PO and R2D2 were based loosely on two characters in that film yes. The term Jedi is even based on the term of that style of movie, Jidaigeki.