The Only Viable 4v4 Arena Spec For Sent / Mara

[Aluvi]

Is Annihilation. Yes, that's right, Annihilation. And that's only if the enemy team stacks up perfectly so that you can spread your dots. In other words, annihilation is not really viable either, except in theory.

 

Did some 4v4s against the only other team worth mentioning on our server. We tried several different variations of "burst spec" comps, using double combat, TK + combat, and we never really came close to getting a kill. The teams were:

 

Us - Combat Sent x2 or TK Sage + Combat Sent, Jugg or Assassin Tank, Sorc healer

Them - Vig Jugg, + Eng Sniper (or Sorc), Jugg Tank, Sorc healer

 

Many rounds went to acid, or nearly to acid. When we lost without going to acid, it was due to being worn down through dot / cleave. Our burst was never enough to seriously threaten any of their teammates. Other classes simply have too many ways to stop burst comps. DPS Sorcs being able to cleanse fears / CCs was particularly difficult. If we tried to CC tank + Healer and kill sorc, the sorc just cleansed the tank and healer. The Sniper was just too hard to stay on, and killing a Jugg as your first target with their extra health, saber ward, heal to full, etc? No not going to happen. We didn't get to try out Vanguard + Combat but I think the result would be the same.

 

The new meta is back to dot cleave. CC / Burst comp is dead. The way to win is to find the class that has the best survivability and puts out the most overall damage. That is going to be some combo of Sorc / Assassin / Jugg. I honestly think that double sadness is going to be the way to go. Assassin + Sorc madness dps, sorc heals, Jugg tank. CC and smart play has gone out the window. It's now a race to see who can push out the most dps via dot spreading / aoe to eventually overwhelm the enemy healer. Someone will get low eventually, and hard stuns will be used to prevent healing and kill that person.

 

The only round that we won was when both of our Sents went Watchman (Annihilation). Because the other team was expecting us to be single target, they were bunching up, so we were able to spread our dots to all 4 of them constantly (also I can kind of picture them laughing at us when they realized we were Watchman, and maybe they slacked a bit and didn't try as hard as they should have that round), which lead to really good damage and eventually a kill through sheer attrition. The second and third round, they simply spread out more, and we had no way to stop them from beating us.

 

This is the new 4v4 meta, and it doesn't have room for Sents / Maras. You're also at a significant disadvantage if you run a Sent / Mara in solo arena. Operatives are the only class that arguably gets screwed over worse. Vanguards are not ideal, but they aren't absolutely horrible either, mainly because they have such great DCDs (although no flat damage stops) and amazing overall dps and burst, plus taunt and pull.

 

My Shadow is 59 with 14 weapons, soon to be 16 or 17 by the time I hit 60 later today. In midbie pvp I've been consistently getting 1800+ dps (well over a million damage done) every game, along with 100-200k healing and 60-80k protection. With a good healer, I'm damn near unstoppable. Plus stealth and being able to go to off nodes and be guaranteed to win every fight because the class is simply better. I've only had one duel that ended in a draw, and it was against a level 59 assassin - we both died at the exact same time from each others dots.

 

I don't think fixing Combat to be viable for pvp is possible at this point, because burst specs simply don't work anymore in high level ranked pvp. If we were given the old Rage back, and I mean full, unnerfed Rage - 11-12k full aoe Smashes would be the norm here, our class might have a chance. That will never happen though, so my advice is to hang up your lightsabers and pick up a saber staff.

[TheCourier-]

If undying rage got buffed and predation didn't require fury stacks, then fury spec might work for target switch comps. Marauder needs a lot of defensive and mobility buffs though to be able to play team ranked right now.

[BloodDevistaor]

So you are implying rage isn't viable in areans, lolo?

 

I think I wanna kill myself

[Dyvim]

Is Annihilation. Yes, that's right, Annihilation. And that's only if the enemy team stacks up perfectly so that you can spread your dots. In other words, annihilation is not really viable either, except in theory.

 

...

 

I don't think fixing Combat to be viable for pvp is possible at this point, because burst specs simply don't work anymore in high level ranked pvp. If we were given the old Rage back, and I mean full, unnerfed Rage - 11-12k full aoe Smashes would be the norm here, our class might have a chance. That will never happen though, so my advice is to hang up your lightsabers and pick up a saber staff.

 

I agree, except the build up to get into range, build focus, apply two dots, then spread them, all the while depending on your enemy to be stupid enough to stay clustered...while not cc'ing, knocking you back, or simply killing you...is just too complicated of a one trick pony to pull off compared to what the other classes get to dish out.

 

I am guessing you are playing serenity shadow...they have a similar spreading DoT technique...except they get to do it ALL FROM RANGE, with NO resource building mechanic...with stealth...and better utilities...it is just infinitely easier...

[cjwestlake]

/disagree

[jeDaii-Oreo]

Annihilation is good if you have a full team with healer and a tank - or at least 1 healer.. But for solo ranked I would strongly recommend Carnage or Fury..

 

The burst is still very good.. But the class is easily **** down with roots, stuns and knockbacks - unlike any class I have ever seen in this or any other game..

 

Unlike most other classes, you have to be really skillful and determined to play this class in 4v4 ranked.. You cannot just do 2-3 arenas and say the class is completely garbage.. Because it is not.. Although, as mentioned above, it is easily shut down for short durations...

 

We need cloak of pain to provide immunity to movement impairing effects (just like the Through Power utility of Juggs, which provide 50% speed boost and immunity to movement impairing effects)...

 

We also need a proper root and UR to return to its previous state..

[Aluvi]

/disagree

 

Have you done competitive 4v4s then? Care to tell me what comp works with a marauder in it against a top tier team?

[Aluvi]

Annihilation is good if you have a full team with healer and a tank - or at least 1 healer.. But for solo ranked I would strongly recommend Carnage or Fury..

 

The burst is still very good.. But the class is easily **** down with roots, stuns and knockbacks - unlike any class I have ever seen in this or any other game..

 

Unlike most other classes, you have to be really skillful and determined to play this class in 4v4 ranked.. You cannot just do 2-3 arenas and say the class is completely garbage.. Because it is not.. Although, as mentioned above, it is easily shut down for short durations...

 

We need cloak of pain to provide immunity to movement impairing effects (just like the Through Power utility of Juggs, which provide 50% speed boost and immunity to movement impairing effects)...

 

We also need a proper root and UR to return to its previous state..

 

The only time Annihilation is good is if you have the entire team stacking within 5 meters of you at all times to allow you to spread dots and cleave with Dual Saber Throw. Otherwise, Annihilation is just as bad as the other specs, but with way less burst.

 

The main problem that I am driving at in this thread though, is that burst comps just don't work for 4v4 anymore. Sure, you're going to insta kill bads in solo arena, but it will never happen in proper 4v4s anymore. We got some really excellent burst windows in, but it just isn't enough anymore.

[calamatiesend]

The only time Annihilation is good is if you have the entire team stacking within 5 meters of you at all times to allow you to spread dots and cleave with Dual Saber Throw. Otherwise, Annihilation is just as bad as the other specs, but with way less burst.

 

The main problem that I am driving at in this thread though, is that burst comps just don't work for 4v4 anymore. Sure, you're going to insta kill bads in solo arena, but it will never happen in proper 4v4s anymore. We got some really excellent burst windows in, but it just isn't enough anymore.

 

He is correct, the devs should really look into bringing back some of carnages burst but the game is changing and sustained pressure(ie dot spread) seems to be the way to go against tank healer in group 4s

[cjwestlake]

Have you done competitive 4v4s then? Care to tell me what comp works with a marauder in it against a top tier team?

 

I tried you idiots don't listen!!

[calamatiesend]

I tried you idiots don't listen!!

 

lol keep spamming pred as Fury in 4s ranked. I'm sure you are leet dps that can burn down, oh wait..... None of this matters Aluvi is talking about 4v4 premades, actual group ranked. Where currently mara has no place, show me screen shots of your amazing spec in 4s please and then in group 4s with real pvpers

 

if it performs well there, then sure maybe we will give you something but I already know the answer..... Do not think we have not played Fury or tried it out.

[TheCourier-]

Carnage won't work against a double AP PT team or double vengeance juggernaut team if the PTs/juggs look for gore windows. I routinely stun marauders attacking a person on my team when I see them use gore. Gore has no protection at all, and lasts for less time than a stun.

 

The only marauder spec that has a shot of being ranked viable is fury. But, fury is way too squishy right now to be ranked viable. Fury would be ranked viable if marauder's defensives were buffed because fury's sustained damage is actually moderately high compared to other specs in SWTOR, and fury doesn't rely on gore.

 

As a note, target switching comps for team ranked don't work as well as they used to partially because of the amount of assassins, PTs, and juggs in team ranked, which all have taunts. So, even if the tank is CCed and can't guard swap, the DPS can actually peel for the healer on the team.

 

This means that there are 2 primary ways to win team ranked:

1. tab dot everything and overwhelm the healer with dot damage

2. put a DPS on a healer and a DPS on a squishy DPS.

 

That is why fury spec could work if fury spec had better defensives than it currently does. Fury spec can stick on a squishy DPS and force the tank to guard swap often (furious strike and raging burst can easily do 20000+ damage, and force a guard swap). Eventually, either the healer or the squishy DPS will die. The problem with that strategy is that the marauder would've died before the squishy DPS due to undying rage not being a real option to use.

 

The main things that would make marauder viable for team ranked are 1. undying rage not costing half health, and 2. predation on a CD instead of requiring fury stacks.

 

Undying rage not costing health would prevent a marauder from dying within 2-3 GCDs of undying rage ending. Right now, if a healer heals a marauder to 40% health while undying rage is on, 1 critted dispatch/assassinate after undying rage ends will kill the marauder (20% health is around 8000-10000 health, and dispatch/assassinate can do over 10k damage).

Edited December 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[ElcorHamlet]

I assume u are talking about yolo. Pliz no then, yolo is always about luck.

 

 

In terms of group...Well..

 

Anni is a no if team spreads.

Carnage is a no coz of "cc" while gore window.

Fury is a no coz of infinite root problem.

 

Then what spec sent should play on grp arena? : D

 

You're right about Anni, wrong about Carnage and Fury. The problem with carnage is that the burst is not strong enough, even if people stand there and eat it. The problem with fury is still that the burst is not strong enough. They have better time on target because of obliterate, and their passive survivability is better than carnage, but they do not have the burst to kill anyone.

 

The point is, burst comps are dead.

[calamatiesend]

Carnage won't work against a double AP PT team or double vengeance juggernaut team if the PTs/juggs look for gore windows. I routinely stun marauders attacking a person on my team when I see them use gore. Gore has no protection at all, and lasts for less time than a stun.

 

The only marauder spec that has a shot of being ranked viable is fury. But, fury is way too squishy right now to be ranked viable. Fury would be ranked viable if marauder's defensives were buffed because fury's sustained damage is actually moderately high compared to other specs in SWTOR, and fury doesn't rely on gore.

 

As a note, target switching comps for team ranked don't work as well as they used to partially because of the amount of assassins, PTs, and juggs in team ranked, which all have taunts. So, even if the tank is CCed and can't guard swap, the DPS can actually peel for the healer on the team.

 

This means that there are 2 primary ways to win team ranked:

1. tab dot everything and overwhelm the healer with dot damage

2. put a DPS on a healer and a DPS on a squishy DPS.

 

That is why fury spec could work if fury spec had better defensives than it currently does. Fury spec can stick on a squishy DPS and force the tank to guard swap often (furious strike and raging burst can easily do 20000+ damage, and force a guard swap). Eventually, either the healer or the squishy DPS will die. The problem with that strategy is that the marauder would've died before the squishy DPS due to undying rage not being a real option to use.

 

The main things that would make marauder viable for team ranked are 1. undying rage not costing half health, and 2. predation on a CD instead of requiring fury stacks.

 

Undying rage not costing health would prevent a marauder from dying within 2-3 GCDs of undying rage ending. Right now, if a healer heals a marauder to 40% health while undying rage is on, 1 critted dispatch/assassinate after undying rage ends will kill the marauder (20% health is around 8000-10000 health, and dispatch/assassinate can do over 10k damage).

 

Agree with this completely, I wanna say they should give carnage an unstoppable talent in discipline tree, so we can have a cc immune period for gore windows. But this might be way too OP since I know the burst I can pull with an uninterrupted gore window can be stupid high.

 

I think you highlighted exactly what the problem is and my experience has been pretty similar. I do hate that tanks can taunt in dps stances(and while I agree it is some of their utility, our utility seems to have been handed out to every class now..... so heres hoping for a taunt

[TheCourier-]

I assume u are talking about yolo. Pliz no then, yolo is always about luck.

 

 

In terms of group...Well..

 

Anni is a no if team spreads.

Carnage is a no coz of "cc" while gore window.

Fury is a no coz of infinite root problem.

 

Then what spec sent should play on grp arena? : D

 

I was talking about team ranked. Marauder has no place in team ranked. If marauder's defensives were buffed, and predation was buffed, then fury marauder would be viable for team ranked.

Edited December 27, 2014 by TheCourier-

[calamatiesend]

Tbh, in grp ranked its not about defs.

 

It clearly burst/damage problem and untilities. In dot specs u cant do the same damage as other dot'ers do (I mean madness)

 

In carnage/fury u cant do the same burst like other classes do.

 

Burst comps/target switch are not as viable though(unless some major changes are made), Fury can put out pretty high sustain and good burst(not amazing but can be pretty high with Koan/crits) so you can wear the other teams healers down. The problem is our DCD are pretty crap right now so we cannot keep up our sustained when we need to take some hits till heals/guard swaps

 

Maybe this will change but right now in 4s with a healer/tank I just do not see burst comps working as well since TTK is up. Or they could give carnage unstoppable on leaps and surge bonus on VT/dispatch and ataru hits but thats just me dreaming.

[calamatiesend]

U are soooo much not right. They WANTED to increase TTK. But they failed. Atm its even lower than before.

 

My experience from PTS. I was in fury and I had tank and pt. We killed stunned and guarded scoundrel within couple of secs.

 

In fury u can do up to 20k damage in 2 globals, then u have AP that is doing more 30k in 2 globals. Also, atm tanks running with more dps gear than tank gear. So, our tank did around 30k damage.

 

 

Yesterday I have met a team with 2 pts and a sniper. Match ended in 10 secs.

 

Sooo, what im saying again, is that no - u no right. Burst is retared atm.

 

Gotta wonder what the other team is doing if they let you burst stunned/guarded OP down without any taunts/ccs or peels......

 

Also you did what 70k in 3 seconds, that wont kill a geared guarded healer..... not sure who you were playing against........

 

yes PT burst is high right now, but SC will be toned down before season starts and without a off the GCD double SC spam........ I do not see you bursting down someone on hard swaps unless they are bad. Also you know that opening burst from AP is high.... Did you not try to mitigate it at all? No tanks, or stuns or what anything??

Edited December 29, 2014 by calamatiesend

[revcrisis]

I've had a 2,000+ rating in each of the 3 ranked seasons on either my mara or sent. My thoughts on Mara/Sent in 3.0 is that we are a few tweaks away from being in a solid place. We are still viable right now, it just needs to be played at a high and smart skill level.

 

Aluvien brings up some interesting points about Anni. I don't agree with him on Anni being the only viable spec. I can tell you right now that Fury/Concentration is an absolutely viable spec in Yolos. Carnage is still a viable spec for 4s, pending you're not facing a double hatred/madness team. If you're facing a dot-pressure team, carnage is not viable. Why? Because dot-pressure is over-tuned right now. It will be evaluated in 3.1 (see nerfed) - the devs have already said as much. But if you're facing a burst team or a non-madness/hatred team, carnage can still be a big asset.

 

Regardless, Fury/Concentration is the tankiest spec (5% additional DR from stance), no rage starvation, second leap while rooted, and 2 of the abilities can crit for 10k+. Passive 30% armor penetration as well. It's the equivalent of AP powertechs. You can get a ton of damage in but you still die first on your team without a healer.

 

As I said, Maruaders/Sentinels are in an ok place in 3.0. We are a few tweaks away from being in a GOOD place.

 

Here are some examples. You'll notice that there are no drastic changes here. It's some small tweaks which go a long way.

• Blood Ward rate limit needs to be 1 second (down from 1.5). This will heal the marauder for 36% HP if attacked every second of Saber Ward. Currently, it's only 24%, so it will be a net 12% increase in self-heals.
  
• Predation should be on a 1 minute cooldown. You lose too much DPS by not activating berserk. The set bonus of a marauder also encourages berserk use. Make predation a CD.
  
• Force Camo should grant a purge in addition to stealth. "When activating force camo, it purges all hostile effects". Because of this added purge, I am totally fine with Force camo's CD being raised to 1 MINUTE.
  
• Undying Rage can remain a 50% health reduction. The devs seem intent on this 50% HP number. However, it needs to be 25% upon activating UR, and an additional 25% when the effect ends. This makes it a viable CD to use in healer games. I pop my UR at 30% HP. I immediately go down to 23% HP, but the healer gets me up to 70% in those 4-6 seconds. At 70%, UR ends, and I am left with 53% HP. The result? Activated UR at 30%, ended up at 53%.
  
• Remove Crippling/Leg slash from the game completely. Bring back Deadly Throw. Roll the 50% slow of leg slash into deadly throw. Modify a utility point which makes deadly throw root for 3 seconds. Keep the cooldown of deadly throw at 12 seconds. Net result? A 10-meter ability which slows by 50% and gives the 20% trauma debuff - this ability is on a 12 second cooldown. If you decide to pick-up the utility talent, you can also make deadly throw a root for 3 seconds.
  

Edited December 29, 2014 by revcrisis

[K_osss]

I'd agree we're a few tweaks away from a good place. I'm surprised you didn't mention Deadly Throw / Crippling Throw in your tweak ideas. I think that was pretty important and was really one of the only skills that sentinels could use to control enemy movement consistently.

[Aluvi]

I've had a 2,000+ rating in each of the 3 ranked seasons on either my mara or sent. My thoughts on Mara/Sent in 3.0 is that we are a few tweaks away from being in a solid place. We are still viable right now, it just needs to be played at a high and smart skill level.

 

Aluvien brings up some interesting points about Anni. I don't agree with him on Anni being the only viable spec. I can tell you right now that Fury/Concentration is an absolutely viable spec in Yolos. Carnage is still a viable spec for 4s, pending you're not facing a double hatred/madness team. If you're facing a dot-pressure team, carnage is not viable. Why? Because dot-pressure is over-tuned right now. It will be evaluated in 3.1 (see nerfed) - the devs have already said as much. But if you're facing a burst team or a non-madness/hatred team, carnage can still be a big asset.

 

Regardless, Fury/Concentration is the tankiest spec (5% additional DR from stance), no rage starvation, second leap while rooted, and 2 of the abilities can crit for 10k+. Passive 30% armor penetration as well. It's the equivalent of AP powertechs. You can get a ton of damage in but you still die first on your team without a healer.

 

As I said, Maruaders/Sentinels are in an ok place in 3.0. We are a few tweaks away from being in a GOOD place.

 

Here are some examples. You'll notice that there are no drastic changes here. It's some small tweaks which go a long way.

• Blood Ward rate limit needs to be 1 second (down from 1.5). This will heal the marauder for 36% HP if attacked every second of Saber Ward. Currently, it's only 24%, so it will be a net 12% increase in self-heals.
  
• Predation should be on a 1 minute cooldown. You lose too much DPS by not activating berserk. The set bonus of a marauder also encourages berserk use. Make predation a CD.
  
• Force Camo should grant a purge in addition to stealth. "When activating force camo, it purges all hostile effects". Because of this added purge, I am totally fine with Force camo's CD being raised to 1 MINUTE.
  
• Undying Rage can remain a 50% health reduction. The devs seem intent on this 50% HP number. However, it needs to be 25% upon activating UR, and an additional 25% when the effect ends. This makes it a viable CD to use in healer games. I pop my UR at 30% HP. I immediately go down to 23% HP, but the healer gets me up to 70% in those 4-6 seconds. At 70%, UR ends, and I am left with 53% HP. The result? Activated UR at 30%, ended up at 53%.
  
• Remove Crippling/Leg slash from the game completely. Bring back Deadly Throw. Roll the 50% slow of leg slash into deadly throw. Modify a utility point which makes deadly throw root for 3 seconds. Keep the cooldown of deadly throw at 12 seconds. Net result? A 10-meter ability which slows by 50% and gives the 20% trauma debuff - this ability is on a 12 second cooldown. If you decide to pick-up the utility talent, you can also make deadly throw a root for 3 seconds.
  

 

I'd agree with all of those changes, except I think UR should just be 50% up front again. Seriously, if Juggs get a heal to full godmode ability, at least let us do the 50% health up front so that heals afterwards actually count.

 

Also for the record, my original post only really addresses 4v4 ranked team play. Yolo queue is yolo. 75% of it is who you get on your team.

 

The problem would still remain though, that Carnage still doesn't do enough burst, and, in general, burst comps are not viable anymore. Maybe that isn't a problem, but it simply means that Carnage really doesn't have any use anymore in this game, since Anni is better for pve dps, and new Rage would be better for pvp.

 

The best we managed to do in all of those 4v4 matches was to get the sorc to use barrier. It's possible that part of the problem is that tanking is a little bit too good as well, although I'll probably piss off a lot of people by saying that. taunt being 30% DR and guard doing 50% DR, for a total of 65% if my math is correct (pretty sure it is multiplicative) really kind of stops any damage in it's tracks. There used to be a viable solution to that in tank tunneling, but CCing healers is more difficult now, and TTK for tanks, especially Juggs, is really really high.

 

Don't forget, we had the damage on precision removed, as well as riposte. That could easily be 5-6k damage in lvl 55 numbers added to a gore window. I was actually OK with the proposed change of making it respect the GCD and also making it do more damage and last 6 seconds.

 

I should be clear though - if your only ambition is to do yolo and regs, you might be OK rolling a mara / sent. Just be prepared for a lot of suffering as you are kited, dotted, and watch other players heal to full. Oh and Powertechs now run as fast as you do in predation like 70% of the time, but their speed doesn't lower their dps... and they are immune to knockbacks, roots, etc while using theirs.

 

One last thing.. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but are you 2k+ rating in team ranked for all 3 seasons, or is that yolo? Not that 2K yolo q rating isn't significant, but speaking as someone who has had 2400+ team ranked rating on my mara, they are entirely different animals.

[Vodrin]

If undying rage got buffed and predation didn't require fury stacks, then fury spec might work for target switch comps. Marauder needs a lot of defensive and mobility buffs though to be able to play team ranked right now.

 

The problem is that target swap comps are really not viable at all against a comp with sorc DPS as long as they are johnny on the spot with cleanses and are smart about positioning. DPS either needs to lose their cleanses, or they have to do away with the idea of cleansing hard stuns altogether. Otherwise hard swap comps are dead against good teams.

[RodneyMcNeely]

The only marauder spec that has a shot of being ranked viable is fury. But, fury is way too squishy right now to be ranked viable. Fury would be ranked viable if marauder's defensives were buffed because fury's sustained damage is actually moderately high compared to other specs in SWTOR, and fury doesn't rely on gore.

I apologize in advance for going off on a tangent, but I'm wondering if Fury/Concentration would shine as a DPS Assassin/Shadow killer?

 

The reason I ask is that I had a Fury Marauder (Ilysia on Pot5) hand me my BEHIND in Novare Coast the other day. I was guarding West on my Serenity Shadow (been playing Infiltration since launch, but decided to go FotM for kicks) when I saw her INC alone to the node. I thought "she's got a lot of nerve; this should be easy".

 

She blew me up. I was literally down to 15% health in 2-3 GCDs and got mopped up shortly thereafter. Part of the problem was that I didn't use my cooldowns because I honestly wasn't expecting that kind of upfront burst. I also wasn't expecting to have to kite another melee, so I simply used the wrong tactics. I did better against her later but didn't get the chance to really 1v1 as we had everyone and his brother swarming the node.

 

It seems to me, though, that Fury/Concentration's ability to front-load a nice mixture of white and yellow damage would make them well-suited to bursting down solo, lightly-armored targets whose passive defenses might not be that great.

 

I understand that Marauders/Sentinels are in a really bad spot right now, particularly with their mobility and target uptime getting nerfed into the ground, but could this be a niche that will hold them over until some proper balancing comes along?

 

Just wondering.

Edited January 2, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Chicato]

Annihilation is an off-healing PvE spec, and will most likely always be just that. It takes too long to get going like an old locomotive. It can not function well enough defensively to hold its own in 4v4 ranked arenas as well as the sleuthy, fast moving carnage mara can or the tanky burst fury spec'd marauder can.

 

Sorry, but I disagree with you.