Understanding differences, Force users.

[mefit]

I don't think he'd have been "more powerful." if whole. That's kind of missing the point. The whole point is that he wasn't whole in mind/spirit. This made him "Sick." It wasn't like he couldn't draw on both aspects of the force. We saw him use both "Jedi" and "Sith" powers. His body just wasn't acting in accordance to Spirit. I still agree that Revan is more powerful than the player characters but I wouldn't say that's "50% of Revan's powers." in some ways he might have been stronger. (Nothing holding him back etc.) he grew more powerful after the split not weaker.

 

I do think he would have better applied that power and wouldn't have been an insane mess.

 

Clearly he was not whole by the video I posted . Not that his power was hindered but his ability to use it to it's full potential was likely but almost two separate people . One of Light who moved on and one of insanity clinging on to reality .

The Body might have had a lot if not all his power , but being split into two might have hurt his ability to use or control his power .

If so , what the half of him you fight in 3.0 might have been a clue into what he might have been able to do as a whole.

 

Pretty much debatable at this point really .

 

 

HoT Quote " Strength is useless without Wisdom to Guide it "

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for all the Spoiler Clicks, I just do not want to ruin the story for those who have not played it yet.

Edited December 8, 2014 by mefit

[Selenial]

No he wasnt, none of the Player Characters were present. I have expained this multiple times, that is a planetary quest not a class quest meaning all characters can do it (we already have Sel confirming teh Wrath was there) in other words NONE OF THE PCs ARE THERE. The battle itself is questionable as to being cannon or not even. If there were even 6 people there or just 5. The only story stuff that is CANNON to the characters is the CLASS story quests, none of the planetary quests regardless of expansion are cannon. If it can be done with any of hte classes its Non Cannon.

 

As I said before the most accurate representation of a character is in the Book. This would be the Revan Novel for Revan, all game itterations are inaccurate by comparison (IE it doesnt matter what revan does in 3.0 it is a less accurate representation of the character and the events surrounding the character by comparison to the book's version. It is done for the purpose of making a game that is all)

 

Wrong, every player character gets a respective promotion at the end of it, that's important to their story as a whole so they were there.

[tunewalker]

Wrong, every player character gets a respective promotion at the end of it, that's important to their story as a whole so they were there.

 

No, it doesnt. They can get a promotion for doing SOMETHING not neccisarily that particular thing. Stories the classes share are not cannon to the characters themselves.

[Selenial]

No, it doesnt. They can get a promotion for doing SOMETHING not neccisarily that particular thing. Stories the classes share are not cannon to the characters themselves.

 

What?

No..?

 

They get a promotion that is exclusively crucial to their class story, in light of what happens and in accordance with Beniko's or Theron Shan's.

 

For example, the trooper gets

put in charge of a task force to find the emperor after he escapes.

The only reason I say only the wrath was there is because the Wrath is actually spoken to by both the Emperor and Revan, where the others aren't.

[tunewalker]

What?

No..?

 

They get a promotion that is exclusively crucial to their class story, in light of what happens and in accordance with Beniko's or Theron Shan's.

 

For example, the trooper gets

put in charge of a task force to find the emperor after he escapes.

The only reason I say only the wrath was there is because the Wrath is actually spoken to by both the Emperor and Revan, where the others aren't.

 

Read the top, the promotion is cannon, the rest is not. Just like them going to Makeb (as they were contacted and asked to go by specific people) but nothing that is done on Makeb is cannon to their stories. Its the same principle. they get promoted, just not for any of the "planet Story quests" regardless of what anything else says. Any quests all classes share are non cannon to all classes.

 

 

(or I should say they are about as Cannon as Female Revan is.... cut scenes exist for them, but that doesnt mean they happened like that.)

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

The only reason I say only the wrath was there is because the Wrath is actually spoken to by both the Emperor and Revan, where the others aren't.

 

Eh, I wouldn't say that's the most sound logic. I mean, it's possible, but I don't know.

[Selenial]

Read the top, the promotion is cannon, the rest is not. Just like them going to Makeb (as they were contacted and asked to go by specific people) but nothing that is done on Makeb is cannon to their stories. Its the same principle. they get promoted, just not for any of the "planet Story quests" regardless of what anything else says. Any quests all classes share are non cannon to all classes.

 

 

(or I should say they are about as Cannon as Female Revan is....)

 

This is perhaps your most flawed logic yet. It amuses me.

 

Let's be honest here, for a minute. You refuse to accept some mechanics because you're biased against them and dislike the story. We know the Wrath, Nox, Mandalorian, Havoc etc were all there. We know Satele called "the most powerful strike force they have" to face Revan, and you refuse to believe it.

 

In your mind it's because "game mechanics brah" and that fights are there to be enjoyed in games. Well, firstly, in the actual canon tiers they're on the same level as Novels. And really, at the end of the day, what's different in a Novel? Nothing. A fight is there to be epic, a close contest that's difficult for both characters. They have a lot of added fluff thrown in to entertain.

 

How much worse would the Revan Novel be if vitiate one shot Revan because he's a peon? It'd be terrible, as the whole book leads up to that.

 

Not to mention, your logic on Revan is akin to saying DE Sidious doesn't exist because TPM Sidious is a better representation.

[Selenial]

Eh, I wouldn't say that's the most sound logic. I mean, it's possible, but I don't know.

 

I don't think anyone would have listened if I had gone around saying all 8 protags fought.

[tunewalker]

This is perhaps your most flawed logic yet. It amuses me.

 

Let's be honest here, for a minute. You refuse to accept some mechanics because you're biased against them and dislike the story. We know the Wrath, Nox, Mandalorian, Havoc etc were all there. We know Satele called "the most powerful strike force they have" to face Revan, and you refuse to believe it.

 

In your mind it's because "game mechanics brah" and that fights are there to be enjoyed in games. Well, firstly, in the actual canon tiers they're on the same level as Novels. And really, at the end of the day, what's different in a Novel? Nothing. A fight is there to be epic, a close contest that's difficult for both characters. They have a lot of added fluff thrown in to entertain.

 

How much worse would the Revan Novel be if vitiate one shot Revan because he's a peon? It'd be terrible, as the whole book leads up to that.

 

Not to mention, your logic on Revan is akin to saying DE Sidious doesn't exist because TPM Sidious is a better representation.

 

To be more specific, the more accurate Representation of Sidious would be Return of the Jedi Movie/ Novel. Also nothing that Revan does in 3.0 was not doable by Revan in the Revan Novel so the point is kind of Moot any way.

 

Also if Games are = cannon wise to books.... Galen Marek Fights Sidious to a practical Stand still. In RotJ Luke Fights his entire way through the second death Star and eventually fights and Defeats Sidious. Revan is Transgender.... need I continue....

[Aurbere]

I don't think anyone would have listened if I had gone around saying all 8 protags fought.

 

Probably not, though it's possible that the actual fight is the operation version.

[tunewalker]

Probably not, though it's possible that the actual fight is the operation version.

 

Which again all Operations and Flash Points are also non cannon to player characters. A Strike force was used, not neccisarily any of the PC were in those strike forces.

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

To be more specific, the more accurate Representation of Sidious would be Return of the Jedi Movie/ Novel. Also nothing that Revan does in 3.0 was not doable by Revan in the Revan Novel so the point is kind of Moot any way.

 

Also if Games are = cannon wise to books.... Galen Marek Fights Sidious to a practical Stand still. In RotJ Luke Fights his entire way through the second death Star and eventually fights and Defeats Sidious. Revan is Transgender.... need I continue....

 

The film Novels are G-Canon, though it doesn't surprise me you don't understand that, so no, Super ROTJ isn't canon.

 

As for the Galen Marek ****, where have you been? The problem with that is that both are on the same canon level, it's the reason no one ever uses that fight.

[Aurbere]

Theoretically, certain things that happen in fights in games could be canon, depending on how they happen or why.

[Selenial]

Theoretically, certain things that happen in fights in games could be canon, depending on how they happen or why.

 

Scripted things, yes. The fact that Revan placed Satele and co in whirlwinds, but not that "it would take 3 hits from Ravan to kill you unless you have a healer"

[Aurbere]

Scripted things, yes. The fact that Revan placed Satele and co in whirlwinds, but not that "it would take 3 hits from Ravan to kill you unless you have a healer"

 

That depends on what you mean by scripted. If it absolutely has to happen, then I'd say it probably could be called canon, but something is based on a specific condition that may or may not be met, then no, I wouldn't call it canon.

 

I think you laid that out well there, though.

[tunewalker]

The film Novels are G-Canon, though it doesn't surprise me you don't understand that, so no, Super ROTJ isn't canon.

 

As for the Galen Marek ****, where have you been? The problem with that is that both are on the same canon level, it's the reason no one ever uses that fight.

 

Doesnt solve either of the Marek things OR the Revan Female, Exile Male issues. Leeland was on record for saying Game Mechanics are non Cannon, and that any discprenecies between the events and the books the books take precendence. By the Fact that the Force Unleashed novel takes precendence over teh Force unleashed game, DOES mean that Books Are > then games. that's just the way it is. i told you at the top of the first page, that is how I take these things, because honestly thats how they are presented. Many things in games are Non Cannon, figureing out which is up to the player. The stuff the classes share, is non Cannon, as its not specific to any one character. Just like Revan Female is non Cannon, or Exile Male is. Some stuff in games like this HAVE to be non cannon, number of mobs, and stuff that crosses over like planet quests, just happen to be a couple of them.

Edited December 8, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Doesnt solve either of the Marek things OR the Revan Female, Exile Male issues. Leeland was on record for saying Game Mechanics are non Cannon, and that any discprenecies between the events and the books the books take precendence. By the Fact that the Force Unleashed novel takes precendence over teh Force unleashed game, DOES mean that Books Are > then games. that's just the way it is. i told you at the top of the first page, that is how I take these things, because honestly thats how they are presented. Many things in games are Non Cannon, figureing out which is up to the player. The stuff the classes share, is non Cannon, as its not specific to any one character. Just like Revan Female is non Cannon, or Exile Male is. Some stuff in games like this HAVE to be non cannon, number of mobs, and stuff that crosses over like planet quests, just happen to be a couple of them.

 

Revan/Exile gender is a ridiculous example, just shows you're clinging to straws. Especially since the real exile is actually a hybrid of the games male and female playthroughs, since Brianna accompanies her on her journey.

 

As for the novels, I wholeheartedly agree. But you putting a novel that's set 300 years before the game, as reason to why the game is non canon, is frankly laughable.

 

And the shared classes things are cannon, since they are actually referenced in Class Specific storylines.

[tunewalker]

Ok let me get this a bit more accurate shall I and where player choice and game mechics exist (as both are Non Cannon) First number of mobs is often Game mechanics no surprise there.

 

Second. In KoToR you could choose Race, Gender, Alignment AND Class. Now Class choice didnt really change much of the Dialog, EXCEPT the opening dialog, so it did have an effect.

 

In ToR, it is essentially KoToR 3-8, however 3-8 ends with the class quests all the Planetary quests are essentially part of KoToR 3, and this is where player Choice comes in. You can choose which character does these Planetary quests as technically NONE of them are needed to get through your Characters Class quest. You can also go back and play them with all the classes, but this is just like going back and playing them with Fem Revan or Dark Side Revan or what have you.

 

Dark Side Revan Still has an Ending, Fem Revan still has an ending. Just like every character here has a promotion, more choices does not equal more accurate, it equals less, and that being said thinking about it, the promotions themselves are as cannon as the Dark Side ending of Revan or Light Side ending of Female Revan. Some one got promoted, who is unknown, because the character you take there is player choice, just like the character you take into an Ops, or character you take into a Flash point is player choice.

Edited December 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Revan/Exile gender is a ridiculous example, just shows you're clinging to straws. Especially since the real exile is actually a hybrid of the games male and female playthroughs, since Brianna accompanies her on her journey.

 

As for the novels, I wholeheartedly agree. But you putting a novel that's set 300 years before the game, as reason to why the game is non canon, is frankly laughable.

 

And the shared classes things are cannon, since they are actually referenced in Class Specific storylines.

 

Also I just finished doing class only quests during the x 12 xp, at no point is a Planetary story line mentioned as being apart of THAT particular classes story. Yes they mention stuff is happening on these planets, but never is it mentioned anywhere that your character had a hand in any of it outside of the Class quests.

[mefit]

Not trying to take sides or get into mud slinging . I respect everyones knowledge and opinions .

 

Revan and The Exile gender was made solid well after the games.

Being able to choose Gender , Race , Faces , Hair Styles .....etc is a nonfactor . They are game Mechanics and effect in no way Canon nor do anything but help the player fit into the story better .

 

The Class Story , main Quest Story of the Expansion packs are probably at this point as canon as any Novel outside those written by George Lucas .

Choices maybe not canon but certainty solid outcomes are canon.

 

When I say Solid Outcomes , I mean those that do not change due to interaction that may differ by players Choice . That end the same no matter .

 

What we know is everyone was called in to fight Revan .

Why we did not see the other PC's is because it would be the Devs putting Canon Faces , Gender , Races on those PCs .

Possibly ruining the players views of said PCs at this moment.

 

So with all the PCs there and the best of both Imperials and the Republic there , even with a Army , that is what it took to take down a insane Revan who was missing a part of his spirit or whatever you want to call it .

 

The Story itself can be seen as much as canon as the Revan novel itself .

Edited December 9, 2014 by mefit

[tunewalker]

Not trying to take sides or get into mud slinging . I respect everyones knowledge and opinions .

 

Revan and The Exile gender was made solid well after the games.

Being able to choose Gender , Race , Faces , Hair Styles .....etc is a nonfactor . They are game Mechanics and effect in no way Canon nor do anything but help the player fit into the story better .

 

The Class Story , main Quest Story of the Expansion packs are probably at this point as canon as any Novel outside those written by George Lucas .

Choices maybe not canon but certainty outcomes are canon.

 

What we know is everyone was called in to fight Revan .

Why we did not see the other PC's is because it would be the Devs putting Canon Faces , Gender , Races on those PCs .

Possibly ruining the players views of said PCs at this moment.

 

So with all the PCs there and the best of both Imperials and the Republic there , even with a Army , that is what it took to take down a insane Revan who was missing a part of his spirit or whatever you want to call it .

 

The Story itself can be seen as much as canon as the Revan novel itself .

 

But they didnt say the Player Characters were there. They said the best strike team they ever put together. that doesnt mean the player Characters were there. Also remember, he was beaten, how is unknown. Its very possible they went and completely overkilled with it.

 

Edit: again PLanetary stuff is Player choice, you can only choose one character to play as at a time. Meaning you can only bring one of you to the fight, meaning the class you CHOOSE is player choice. Player Choice is non cannon. The Player Characters being there thus are also non cannon.

 

 

Edit 2: I am very happy we have moved to talking about my top portion rather then the list itself, unfortunately that also means as far as getting THROUGH to me is likely extrodanrily USELESS . But at least you now understand why I think the way I think, and I understand the reason for the way you think.

 

 

Edit3: TL: DR Short version. The other player characters arent there, because you didnt CHOOSE them.

Edited December 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[mefit]

But they didnt say the Player Characters were there. They said the best strike team they ever put together. that doesnt mean the player Characters were there. Also remember, he was beaten, how is unknown. Its very possible they went and completely overkilled with it.

 

Edit: again PLanetary stuff is Player choice, you can only choose one character to play as at a time. Meaning you can only bring one of you to the fight, meaning the class you CHOOSE is player choice. Player Choice is non cannon. The Player Characters being there thus are also non cannon.

 

 

Edit 2: I am very happy we have moved to talking about my top portion rather then the list itself, unfortunately that also means as far as getting THROUGH to me is likely extrodanrily USELESS . But at least you now understand why I think the way I think, and I understand the reason for the way you think.

That's not true , being we know that it is considered Canon the Strike Force used to take down Revan at the Foundry is Canon and they were all PC characters .

PC Characters are in a sense Canon but they are not made solid being nothing is been released on Race or Gender of the PCs but we know that those stories are Canon . Well as Canon as it can get .

 

All the PCs have a Story , they pretty much all have a ending that is not changing , but they have pork in each ending to keep them interesting .

Right now we have nothing to set any stone to anything being no one is going to because at any point the Devs can change the route the stories go .

Eventually one day , maybe before we die , the game will come to a ending and we will get the final answers to each character .

 

I mean we could just disregard the entire game , its characters ,and everything revolving it if we cannot simply come down to the reasoning of the full story .

 

Choices are not canon , but the story that does not change is Canon .

If those Characters that we play do not have a standing at all , than HoT should not be on the list at all .

 

HoT has no Gender , No Race , No real Source if he/she is good or bad .

Edited December 9, 2014 by mefit

[tunewalker]

That's not true , being we know that it is considered Canon the Strike Force used to take down Revan at the Foundry is Canon and they were all PC characters .

PC Characters are in a sense Canon but they are not made solid being nothing is been released on Race or Gender of the PCs but we know that those stories are Canon . Well as Canon as it can get .

 

All the PCs have a Story , they pretty much all have a ending that is not changing , but they have pork in each ending to keep them interesting .

Right now we have nothing to set any stone to anything being no one is going to because at any point the Devs can change the route the stories go .

Eventually one day , maybe before we die , the game will come to a ending and we will get the final answers to each character .

 

I mean we could just disregard the entire game , its characters ,and everything revolving it if we cannot simply come down to the reasoning of the full story .

 

Choices are not canon , but the story that does not change is Canon .

If those Characters that we play do not have a standing at all , that HoT should not be on the list at all .

 

The strike force that took down revan in the Foundry IS NOT made of Player characters, they were a strike force that is it.

 

Choosing to take a character to a planetary quest is choice, choices as you just said, are not cannon.

 

The events are all cannon. Class stories are Cannon to the Player character, non class stories (FP, Ops and Planetary quests) are not, they are cannon events but not cannon to the PLayer characters, as the character you take to each is PLayer choice.

 

 

Edit: other players you play with ARE NOT the "Player characters" they are "average people" to you, as you are to them. This is why it says "blanks Companion" rather then Kira Carsen, or so on and so forth when you look at other peoples companions.

Edited December 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[mefit]

The strike force that took down revan in the Foundry IS NOT made of Player characters, they were a strike force that is it.

 

Choosing to take a character to a planetary quest is choice, choices as you just said, are not cannon.

 

Foundry is a Story that follows the key Characters of this game , those characters were the youth of heros making their way up the ranks and into the fold . Player Characters .

 

Being that Foundry without a Doubt happened because it is now effecting the main story of the bases of Revan and his admittance of the event . So it is no longer a choice .

 

I honestly see your confusion on the subject as just thinking how to reply about this ( what is feeling like a mess ) has been making my head hurt .

 

Again though I can agree not every Flashpoint , quest , or interaction would be considered Canon and a lot would probably just be fluff .

But the fact is that the Story Arcs of the PCs and their interaction with the Story itself outside of player control shows more than just toss out .

 

The PC Characters outside of our (The players) play Big roles in the story in a whole . And being the Wrait I would say would mean you would be there to handle a large target like Revan.

 

Not to mention Darth Marr and Satele are not by any means chumps in this period of the old republic .

[tunewalker]

Foundry is a Story that follows the key Characters of this game , those characters were the youth of heros making their way up the ranks and into the fold . Player Characters .

 

Being that Foundry without a Doubt happened because it is now effecting the main story of the bases of Revan and his admittance of the event . So it is no longer a choice .

 

I honestly see your confusion on the subject as just thinking how to reply about this ( what is feeling like a mess ) has been making my head hurt .

 

Again though I can agree not every Flashpoint , quest , or interaction would be considered Canon and a lot would probably just be fluff .

But the fact is that the Story Arcs of the PCs and their interaction with the Story itself outside of player control shows more than just toss out .

 

The PC Characters outside of our (The players) play Big roles in the story in a whole . And being the Wrait I would say would mean you would be there to handle a large target like Revan.

 

Not to mention Darth Marr and Satele are not by any means chumps in this period of the old republic .

 

Foundry is a Flash Point quest unneccisary to the PLayer Characters Specific Story Line. It happened and is Cannon to ToR, but has 0 to do with the Player characters. So yes Foundry happened, but not to the Player characters, the character you take there is your choice. Player choice.... non canon.

 

And you are correct Marr and Satele are awesome I have them ON this tier list, for me making the list at all should be counted as that character being among the best..... they also WON against a powerhouse like Revan, a testimant to the fact that they BELONG on this list.

 

 

Edit: this is why I kind of listed what I did at the top. This is the view point that causes impasses. What is and isnt cannon in a game with so much player choice. I do love seeing peoples thoughts and I COMPLETELY understand your thought on it, I just do not share it. (also I would ABSOLUTELY NOT be surprised if YOUR view is more popular and accepted then mine, my view point on things are very rarely shared, guess I am a bit of an odd ball if you will )

 

 

Edit: something else interesting on View Points, to some people it was the HoT that was with the strike team, to others it was the Wrath, to others it was all of them, and yet to others still, it was none. Who is right?.... Who are we really to judge? Same thing with other planetary quests. Its why I take the none stance, because I place all FP and all planetary quests and all ops on the same cannon level. You must take 8 people into an OP but there are only 4 PC's per side, you can even take 16, and yet still only 4, so the none is the easiest response there, and for me the easiest response for one, is what gets spread to the rest, easily explained away with PLayer Choice, and supported by the lack of companion names on all of the other players you run into.

Edited December 9, 2014 by tunewalker