Understanding differences, Force users.

[Aurbere]

Agreed, I think.

 

Good, I'm glad you agree.

[mefit]

I feel the hardest part of this thread is Plagueis as his power is really not known . His abilities for the most part are in the shadows where he was most of his life .

Other than having the most powerful Sithlord as his apprentice we really have nothing to grasp onto in what his abilities go .

 

He was killed drunk and sleeping by Sidious which should say something to what might have been there .

Sidious did keep in the shadows but as we seen Canonly in Clone Wars was willing to take the fight in to someone such as Maul and his brother .

 

Maybe I am missing something but I think it is unfair to determine Plagueis with such limited knowledge we have of him .

[Aurbere]

I feel the hardest part of this thread is Plagueis as his power is really not known . His abilities for the most part are in the shadows where he was most of his life .

Other than having the most powerful Sithlord as his apprentice we really have nothing to grasp onto in what his abilities go .

 

He was killed drunk and sleeping by Sidious which should say something to what might have been there .

Sidious did keep in the shadows but as we seen Canonly in Clone Wars was willing to take the fight in to someone such as Maul and his brother .

 

Maybe I am missing something but I think it is unfair to determine Plagueis with such limited knowledge we have of him .

 

Did you read the Darth Plagueis novel? He's got some pretty insane feats in that.

[mefit]

Did you read the Darth Plagueis novel? He's got some pretty insane feats in that.

 

I wasn't posting against him , hope it did not seem that way . I respect him for the matter that Sidious had to go out and make him drunk , then wait till he was sleeping to kill him .

 

Even if he was not as powerful as Sidious , it is likely that Sidious respected his power enough to know the fight could be damaging .

In my opinion , making Plagueis most likely second to Sidious or close to even with Vader .

[Aurbere]

 

I wasn't posting against him , hope it did not seem that way . I respect him for the matter that Sidious had to go out and make him drunk , then wait till he was sleeping to kill him .

 

Even if he was not as powerful as Sidious , it is likely that Sidious respected his power enough to know the fight could be damaging .

In my opinion , making Plagueis most likely second to Sidious or close to even with Vader .

 

I'm just saying, you said we don't have enough information. I responded that we have plenty thanks to the novel, and everything he did within the novel is spectacular and indicative of an immense mastery of the Force on a scale beyond what most have achieved.

[mefit]

I'm just saying, you said we don't have enough information. I responded that we have plenty thanks to the novel, and everything he did within the novel is spectacular and indicative of an immense mastery of the Force on a scale beyond what most have achieved.

Yea I did not finish the book , to be honest I did not make it far , I always been horrible at reading novels where my wife is more into them than myself.

 

My point being though still stands that he I think vastly is not respected enough in threads talking about power and who has it .

[tunewalker]

Looking more over Sel's feat from 3.0, Its actually not making me want to move revan but rather Satele and Malgus, the Barsen'thor and the HoT.... they were all maybe's because it was very hard to place them overall. Revan's feat would be possible just moving Malgus and Satele down to F Tier (Marr joining her) and having the HoT and Barsen'thor at D and E Tier respectively, obviously I forgot but I would need to drop Bastilla off the list entirely as she has to be bellow Malak who was moved to F tier after info From Rayla. With the Wrath also hitting up E tier.

 

This feat would be possible then with Revan with out moving him from MY C Tier at all. and does help solidify those others locations rather then just placing (maybe's) by them, though it is still possible they are lower.

 

Going to add that edit in. As the Battle Meditation was likely more for the Non Force sensitives then the Force Sensitives. and with one using Battle Meditation it is more than possible for some one like Revan to Fight 2 (Plus 3 non sensitives) vs 1 given the correct combinations of abilities, skills vs his opponents.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Looking more over Sel's feat from 3.0, Its actually not making me want to move revan but rather Satele and Malgus, the Barsen'thor and the HoT.... they were all maybe's because it was very hard to place them overall. Revan's feat would be possible just moving Malgus and Satele down to F Tier (Marr joining her) and having the HoT and Barsen'thor at D and E Tier respectively, obviously I forgot but I would need to drop Bastilla off the list entirely as she has to be bellow Malak who was moved to F tier after info From Rayla. With the Wrath also hitting up E tier.

 

This feat would be possible then with Revan with out moving him from MY C Tier at all. and does help solidify those others locations rather then just placing (maybe's) by them, though it is still possible they are lower.

 

Going to add that edit in. As the Battle Meditation was likely more for the Non Force sensitives then the Force Sensitives. and with one using Battle Meditation it is more than possible for some one like Revan to Fight 2 (Plus 3 non sensitives) vs 1 given the correct combinations of abilities, skills vs his opponents.

 

I'd disagree.

 

What you need to finally realize, something you won't accept that's clouding your judgement, is that moving ships, armies, killing droids or shattering rock is really the basis on which we have to base arguments. I do not agree with Satele or Marr being moved, and especially not Barsen'thor and the Hero of Tython. Why? Because they've outdueled people, they've blasted through Durasteel doors while still a padawan. Bested some of the most powerful Sith in the empire in single combat etc. I know what you're going to say, these enemies don't have a lot of feats so who cares.

Well, no. The Sith were confirmed to be the top of the Empire. TOR Sith weren't somehow inferior to every other Sith in the EU, they were all around the same power levels.

 

Marr was the strongest Sith. Satele one of the most powerful Jedi. Barsen'thor "one of the most powerful Jedi our order has ever seen" and HOT "The greatest warrior of our order."

 

They shouldn't be bumped down, certainly none of them are less powerful than Sion, Scourge etc. You can't just say some people are obviously weak, simply because you don't like the Idea of another character being strong...

[Selenial]

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.

 

- Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design

 

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a*master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted,*and rebuilt by this evil power.

- The Dark Side Sourcebook

 

Then, abruptly, he stiffened, his breath seeming to freeze in his throat. There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him.

 

And laughing.

 

- Specters of the Past

 

I'll go and get the exact quote for the fourth one.

 

Oh and the Sith Emperor completely overwhelms and one shots 'whole' Revan once he stops attempting mental domination.

 

Not to mention the Dread Masters stated to be some of the most powerful Sith Lords on record are stated to not even compare to the Sith Emperor.

 

Exar Kun has used a mass drain feat twice over and with marginal aid whilst doing so, firstlu draining thousands of Massassi children and then of course draining nearly the entire Massassi population before beginning his ritual.

 

A supreme showing of power few Sith can compare to.

Eh.

 

Revan's got better accolades, Rituals are confirmed to be a bad basis to judge power on and really, Revan's still done better. Kun's entire ritual and absorption of Massassi was because he wanted to live forever as a spirit that could still affect the Mortal world, and he needed power... Revan's spirit managed to do it through mastery of the force and raw power alone (Yeh, apparently he learned how to do it? ) Now I know what you're thinking, Obi-Wan and other Jedi managed it.... Well Revan could actually affect the world around him, he drained and killed actual Revan and could still theoretically fight...

 

Honestly I don't know which is better, but I wouldn't put Kun even half a tier above him, if he is above him.

[Aurbere]

Honestly I don't know which is better, but I wouldn't put Kun even half a tier above him, if he is above him.

 

I'd put them together in one tier. I think Revan's better, though.

[tunewalker]

I'd disagree.

 

What you need to finally realize, something you won't accept that's clouding your judgement, is that moving ships, armies, killing droids or shattering rock is really the basis on which we have to base arguments. I do not agree with Satele or Marr being moved, and especially not Barsen'thor and the Hero of Tython. Why? Because they've outdueled people, they've blasted through Durasteel doors while still a padawan. Bested some of the most powerful Sith in the empire in single combat etc. I know what you're going to say, these enemies don't have a lot of feats so who cares.

Well, no. The Sith were confirmed to be the top of the Empire. TOR Sith weren't somehow inferior to every other Sith in the EU, they were all around the same power levels.

 

Marr was the strongest Sith. Satele one of the most powerful Jedi. Barsen'thor "one of the most powerful Jedi our order has ever seen" and HOT "The greatest warrior of our order."

 

They shouldn't be bumped down, certainly none of them are less powerful than Sion, Scourge etc. You can't just say some people are obviously weak, simply because you don't like the Idea of another character being strong...

 

They arent bellow them and unfortunately I have a quote from the Highest cannon of all that says moving ships is no different then moving a tiny rock

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE

 

"power" in the Force is more subtle then that. I havent claimed them to be weak. By being on the Tier list already they are among the best the order has ever seen. They didnt get nocked off it at all. When you can rectify your definition of "power" in the force with what is described in movies and the like, I will be ready, but as is there is more to it then "who lifts the biggest thing" Star Wars itself says it pure as day, plain and simple... NO! No different... only different in your mind. I acknowledge how powerful they are, but power is harder to measure then you are wishing to believe, the Force is a deeper mystery, its not all about alter powers. Its no Wonder Sith and Powerful "Grey" Jedi top power lists when people use the wrong measuring stick for a mystical energy field.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

They arent bellow them and unfortunately I have a quote from the Highest cannon of all that says moving ships is no different then moving a tiny rock

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE

 

Sorry what quote? Not hearing anything like that in there, and there are hundreds of quotes that disagree.

[tunewalker]

Sorry what quote? Not hearing anything like that in there, and there are hundreds of quotes that disagree.

 

Luke: We'll never get it out now

 

Yoda: So certain, are you? Always with you it can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say?

 

Luke:

Master moving stones around is one thing, this is Totally different.

 

Yoda:

No! No different only different in your mind. you must unlearn what you have learned.

 

Pure and simple Size of the object never truly mattered, it was only ever in the Jedi's perception that it mattered. Those who think it matters are wrong. And that is why they fail. They did not unlearn... what they had learned.

[Rhyltran]

Luke: We'll never get it out now

 

Yoda: So certain, are you? Always with you it can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say?

 

Luke:

Master moving stones around is one thing, this is Totally different.

 

Yoda:

No! No different only different in your mind. you must unlearn what you have learned.

 

Pure and simple Size of the object never truly mattered, it was only ever in the Jedi's perception that it mattered. Those who think it matters are wrong. And that is why they fail. They did not unlearn... what they had learned.

 

He said that because Luke is Anakin's son. His power is practically unlimited. There is no difference in him moving a ship or a rock or a star destroyer for that matter. We know Jedi have "Power" not all Jedi are "Equal." even the movies admit to that. Not all Jedi can move around starships even if they have a full understanding of the force. Not all Jedi have the potential of Luke or Yoda.

 

You mentioned the quote but ignored who the quote was directed at. One thing said to one person may not be true to another.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

He said that because Luke is Anakin's son. His power is practically unlimited. There is no difference in him moving a ship or a rock or a star destroyer for that matter. We know Jedi have "Power" not all Jedi are "Equal." even the movies admit to that. Not all Jedi can move around starships even if they have a full understanding of the force. Not all Jedi have the potential of Luke or Yoda.

 

You mentioned the quote but ignored who the quote was directed at. One thing said to one person may not be true to another.

 

Then the difference there would be effort, not nothing, not none, not mental. If moving something larger required MORE energy, or More power, then More effort would also be required. But that isnt what Yoda said, Yoda said No different. It doesnt matter, it never did. Not for any Jedi. Number of objects MIGHT matter, but size never did.

 

Edit: luminous beings are they, nto this crude matter

 

Edit 2: honestly Sel if I were you I would ignore the Tier list for now. Any issues with it would be rectified by rectifying the top, Unfortunately, changing that top for me is exceedingly difficult/ next to impossible because it is simply how I view star wars as a whole. If you would I would recommend righting your own "top" portion. As to what you think power is all about, from what I have been reading, you are much more of the direct approach. To you Size Matters, to you Alter is the purest form of telling who is more powerful in the Force, Jedi or Sith. To you on average the Sith are stronger. If I am wrong about any of that please share.

 

Edit 3: the top of the thread is the heart, the tiers are a gimmick

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[mefit]

Then the difference there would be effort, not nothing, not none, not mental. If moving something larger required MORE energy, or More power, then More effort would also be required. But that isnt what Yoda said, Yoda said No different. It doesnt matter, it never did. Not for any Jedi. Number of objects MIGHT matter, but size never did.

 

Edit: luminous beings are they, nto this crude matter

 

Edit 2: honestly Sel if I were you I would ignore the Tier list for now. Any issues with it would be rectified by rectifying the top, Unfortunately, changing that top for me is exceedingly difficult/ next to impossible because it is simply how I view star wars as a whole. If you would I would recommend righting your own "top" portion. As to what you think power is all about, from what I have been reading, you are much more of the direct approach. To you Size Matters, to you Alter is the purest form of telling who is more powerful in the Force, Jedi or Sith. To you on average the Sith are stronger. If I am wrong about any of that please share.

I could be wrong but size I think does matter . I mean if size does not matter than Jedi would only need to be on a ship pushing other ships into eachother .

 

Heck the Emperor Palpatine could have destroyed the Rebel ships from his Throne lol .

But he didn't and I do think if he could (EU aside) he would have .

 

 

EDIT: I think you brought something here to be debated and often we all are biased to our own views . That's why you debate your reasons for having who , what , where .

Just because your list on here changes does not mean your Opinion or Views have to be changed .

I think your List is interesting and this has been by far my favorite thread in awhile on here .

Edited December 4, 2014 by mefit

[tunewalker]

I could be wrong but size I think does matter . I mean if size does not matter than Jedi would only need to be on a ship pushing other ships into eachother .

 

Heck the Emperor Palpatine could have destroyed the Rebel ships from his Throne lol .

But he didn't and I do think if he could (EU aside) he would have .

 

well this is where we talk about the engines on a ship and the ability for them to visualize it. Like I said I KNOW the limit is the mind. So theoretically ya they can, but their mind would have to fully visualize that. Not to mention the ressitance of the ship itself. Its like when physically strong being power through a Telekinetic attack. There is still the word Kinetic in there. So if the person doesnt think to use enough of the Forces Kinetic energy (a process limited by their mind, and with how much "force energy" is around them and the ships, the Jedi is not Limited, but his mental abilities and the Force itself May be. Especially since Life creates the Force, there is no Life in space, there is still the Force, but its not often described as being as much as on the ground, surrounded by living things, and micro scopic organisms, As I said, my View of The Force is very complicated it is a mystical energy field, or "magical energy field" if you will so there is some mystery to how it works.

 

 

Edit: I am glad you are enjoying this, I am as well. it is very interesting seeing different angles on how the view point on The Force, Star Wars, Power, not Power all work hand in hand. I did try to put at least a small amount of thought into expressing how I view Star Wars even though I know its not neccisarily the same view others have and would likely not be largely taken as truth, but it was there and many of the same conclusions others make I am making, just not always reaching it in the same manner.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Then the difference there would be effort, not nothing, not none, not mental. If moving something larger required MORE energy, or More power, then More effort would also be required. But that isnt what Yoda said, Yoda said No different. It doesnt matter, it never did. Not for any Jedi. Number of objects MIGHT matter, but size never did.

 

Edit: luminous beings are they, nto this crude matter

 

Edit 2: honestly Sel if I were you I would ignore the Tier list for now. Any issues with it would be rectified by rectifying the top, Unfortunately, changing that top for me is exceedingly difficult/ next to impossible because it is simply how I view star wars as a whole. If you would I would recommend righting your own "top" portion. As to what you think power is all about, from what I have been reading, you are much more of the direct approach. To you Size Matters, to you Alter is the purest form of telling who is more powerful in the Force, Jedi or Sith. To you on average the Sith are stronger. If I am wrong about any of that please share.

 

Edit 3: the top of the thread is the heart, the tiers are a gimmick

 

You're still wrong. This is in the context of luke skywalker. Size does NOT matter with Luke. He got to the point where he used the force to manipulate a friggin black hole and has moved moon sized objects. Luke has had no trouble manipulating hundreds of objects either. Luke could move a star destroyer without much or any effort. It shouldn't require effort on Luke's part to lift a starship versus a rock. The whole point was that Luke was holding him back by thinking "This is too big. I can't lift it." when he's the son of the chosen one and most certainly can.

[tunewalker]

You're still wrong. This is in the context of luke skywalker. Size does NOT matter with Luke. He got to the point where he used the force to manipulate a friggin black hole and has moved moon sized objects. Luke has had no trouble manipulating hundreds of objects either. Luke could move a star destroyer without much or any effort. It shouldn't require effort on Luke's part to lift a starship versus a rock. The whole point was that Luke was holding him back by thinking "This is too big. I can't lift it." when he's the son of the chosen one and most certainly can.

 

Last I heard, Kyp moved one of those black holes as well, with just as much effort. As a padawan he lifted a starship into a gas giant with no effort if I recall correctly. Gantoris another of Luke's students quickly picked up that making any physical gesture was unneccisary to using the force, it was just done as a demonstration by Luke. I am pretty sure Luke taught most of his students this. Also he taught them restraint.

 

Going back to my top portion, likely the reason we dont see much TK from some Jedi, is because it is largely unneccissary or even partially looked down upon altering the enviroment where its not needed. The strength or size of a Jedi's TK abilites are likely only truly limited by their situation. The objects they lift are only as large as is absolutely neccissary.

 

Sorry it is just the way I view things, it was stated at the top. Like I said I dont think power is as simple as some people think. Now we are getting back to the main heart of the thread, instead of focusing on the arbitrary List . I am glad.

 

 

"when gone am I the last of the Jedi will you be, pass on what you have learned"

 

Why teach Luke that size doesnt matter, and then tell him to pass that knowledge on, if that knowledge was not true.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Last I heard, Kyp moved one of those black holes as well, with just as much effort. As a padawan he lifted a starship into a gas giant with no effort if I recall correctly. Gantoris another of Luke's students quickly picked up that making any physical gesture was unneccisary to using the force, it was just done as a demonstration by Luke. I am pretty sure Luke taught most of his students this. Also he taught them restraint.

 

Going back to my top portion, likely the reason we dont see much TK from some Jedi, is because it is largely unneccissary or even partially looked down upon altering the enviroment where its not needed. The strength or size of a Jedi's TK abilites are likely only truly limited by their situation. The objects they lift are only as large as is absolutely neccissary.

 

Sorry it is just the way I view things, it was stated at the top. Like I said I dont think power is as simple as some people think. Now we are getting back to the main heart of the thread, instead of focusing on the arbitrary List . I am glad.

 

 

"when gone am I the last of the Jedi will you be, pass on what you have learned"

 

Why teach Luke that size doesnt matter, and then tell him to pass that knowledge on, if that knowledge was not true.

 

Kyp Durron was one of the strongest jedi in the NJO. Gantoris likewise had incredible potential until his unfortunate end. This doesn't really prove your point that "any jedi can do this." because we know that Jedi have different strengths. We know that not all Jedi are equal. We know that some can be "Strong in the force" and others can be "Weak" in the force. We know some have such low "reserves" that they can barely move their own lightsaber to their hand. This is a fact in the star wars universe. Even non force sensitives technically have "little" traces of the force but it's so small and so minute that they can't even access any abilities. Jedi can vary in what their overall potential is.

 

Example, Corran Horn ALWAYS struggled with telekinetics no matter how hard he tried he just wasn't very strong when it came down to it. Again, point to an otherwise very weak jedi and try to come up with a massive feat they accomplished using the force. Luke Skywalker outright admitted that Kyp was one of his "Most powerful" students. Power is a thing in star wars.

[tunewalker]

Kyp Durron was one of the strongest jedi in the NJO. Gantoris likewise had incredible potential until his unfortunate end. This doesn't really prove your point that "any jedi can do this." because we know that Jedi have different strengths. We know that not all Jedi are equal. We know that some can be "Strong in the force" and others can be "Weak" in the force. We know some have such low "reserves" that they can barely move their own lightsaber to their hand. This is a fact in the star wars universe. Even non force sensitives technically have "little" traces of the force but it's so small and so minute that they can't even access any abilities. Jedi can vary in what their overall potential is.

 

Example, Corran Horn ALWAYS struggled with telekinetics no matter how hard he tried he just wasn't very strong when it came down to it. Again, point to an otherwise very weak jedi and try to come up with a massive feat they accomplished using the force. Luke Skywalker outright admitted that Kyp was one of his "Most powerful" students. Power is a thing in star wars.

 

Yes Corran could not do TK, but what he couldnt do With TK, he made up for in Control, Sense and his abilities with Illussions and Tutaminis, becoming known as one of the strongest Force users in the NJO behind only the Skywalkers and Kyp and on par with the other "true Masters" and "truly powerful" people.

 

I have not yet claimed that power is not a thing at all (the tier list exists for a reason), however I HAVE said I dont believe it is as easily measured by who lifts the largest object. Look at Vader vs Luke...... "Indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" they hadnt fought or anything, Luke's Connection to the force had not changed his midichlorians were no different yet Vader knew there was a huge difference between him in RotJ and him in ESB. "your Hate has made you powerful" Emperor to Luke again, again at no point did Luke use ANY alter powers yet the Emperor has practically already annouced him as more powerful then his father who has lifted star ships and moved beasts with ease. There is more to "power" in Force, then who lifts the biggest rock or has the most impressive Alter feat, or did the most damage with an ability. Its more complicated then that. How so? I dont know... and thats the point. The Force is a Mystical energy field for a reason, we arent meant to know everything about it.

[Rhyltran]

Yes Corran could not do TK, but what he couldnt do With TK, he made up for in Control, Sense and his abilities with Illussions and Tutaminis, becoming known as one of the strongest Force users in the NJO behind only the Skywalkers and Kyp and on par with the other "true Masters" and "truly powerful" people.

 

I have not yet claimed that power is not a thing at all (the tier list exists for a reason), however I HAVE said I dont believe it is as easily measured by who lifts the largest object. Look at Vader vs Luke...... "Indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" they hadnt fought or anything, Luke's Connection to the force had not changed his midichlorians were no different yet Vader knew there was a huge difference between him in RotJ and him in ESB. "your Hate has made you powerful" Emperor to Luke again, again at no point did Luke use ANY alter powers yet the Emperor has practically already annouced him as more powerful then his father who has lifted star ships and moved beasts with ease. There is more to "power" in Force, then who lifts the biggest rock or has the most impressive Alter feat, or did the most damage with an ability. Its more complicated then that. How so? I dont know... and thats the point. The Force is a Mystical energy field for a reason, we arent meant to know everything about it.

 

Sith and Jedi alike can tell how much of a connection to the force someone has. There are things that can alter it. Using powerful emotion can make a Jedi stronger as can overall mastery. Not to mention there's precognitive abilities and even when a Jedi fights a Sith or vice versa they usually will see multiple possible scenarios on who wins and how. Being able to see certain things that would happen in a fight can also clue them off on how strong someone is but it is more than that.

 

Who can lift the biggest rock is a huge indicator as is who can lift the most rocks or throw them the farthest. These are measures. The thing is we have evidence to go by. Ignoring evidence then just turns it into an opinion war and if that's the case then what's the point of any debate at all? In order to debate characters strengths we need to know, objectively, how strong they are and evidence why one might be stronger than another. Force feats are relevant. Your example of korran horn is a good one. Sure he can't lift much but you did point out he has other force feats that can be used in his favor.

 

Then you must compare to see if said feats then compare to the size of an object someone lifted for instance. If someone had the force power to move an entire galaxy I'd say that the person he's being compared to is far stronger (I'm aware no one has done this it's just an example.)

[tunewalker]

Sith and Jedi alike can tell how much of a connection to the force someone has. There are things that can alter it. Using powerful emotion can make a Jedi stronger as can overall mastery. Not to mention there's precognitive abilities and even when a Jedi fights a Sith or vice versa they usually will see multiple possible scenarios on who wins and how. Being able to see certain things that would happen in a fight can also clue them off on how strong someone is but it is more than that.

 

Who can lift the biggest rock is a huge indicator as is who can lift the most rocks or throw them the farthest. These are measures. The thing is we have evidence to go by. Ignoring evidence then just turns it into an opinion war and if that's the case then what's the point of any debate at all? In order to debate characters strengths we need to know, objectively, how strong they are and evidence why one might be stronger than another. Force feats are relevant. Your example of korran horn is a good one. Sure he can't lift much but you did point out he has other force feats that can be used in his favor.

 

Then you must compare to see if said feats then compare to the size of an object someone lifted for instance. If someone had the force power to move an entire galaxy I'd say that the person he's being compared to is far stronger (I'm aware no one has done this it's just an example.)

 

I think you are mistaking Ability with Power. I recognize that There are different levels of ability with TK users. I also recognize that just because some one can lift multiple small objects doesnt mean they can lift large objects AND vice versa. I Recognize that different Jedi are different that is the point. I honestly think in most "vs cases" the abilities of the characters should largely be focused on. Power is little meaning when crossing era's there because JUDGING that power is difficult. Some one Like Kanan for example is the example of a "weak" jedi with good TK. He rag dolls a couple people with ease, but percision (lifting Ezra) he struggles with, and both the creators and the Inquisitor suggest that Kanan is undisciplined, Unfocused and weak. (he was probably no older then 10 when Order 66 was given and its been nearly 15 years since he has used his power).

 

Vader's claim of "the Force is with you young skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet" the technical strength of "connection" I dont believe actually changes, but their PRESENCE I do believe as their understanding grows often times I doubt the AMOUNT of force following them changes, but the BEHAVIOR of that Force likely changes. That is probably how the Jedi and Sith tell if some one has grown. The more controlled swirl or what have you they see. But occassionally they can mistake that, as we see over confident sith and Jedi.

Edited December 5, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

I think you are mistaking Ability with Power. I recognize that There are different levels of ability with TK users. I also recognize that just because some one can lift multiple small objects doesnt mean they can lift large objects AND vice versa. I Recognize that different Jedi are different that is the point. I honestly think in most "vs cases" the abilities of the characters should largely be focused on. Power is little meaning when crossing era's there because JUDGING that power is difficult. Some one Like Kanan for example is the example of a "weak" jedi with good TK. He rag dolls a couple people with ease, but percision (lifting Ezra) he struggles with, and both the creators and the Inquisitor suggest that Kanan is undisciplined, Unfocused and weak. (he was probably no older then 10 when Order 66 was given and its been nearly 15 years since he has used his power).

 

Vader's claim of "the Force is with you young skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet" the technical strength of "connection" I dont believe actually changes, but their PRESENCE I do believe as their understanding grows often times I doubt the AMOUNT of force following them changes, but the BEHAVIOR of that Force likely changes. That is probably how the Jedi and Sith tell if some one has grown. The more controlled swirl or what have you they see. But occassionally they can mistake that, as we see over confident sith and Jedi.

 

Except you don't like using force feats to compare characters. In Kanaan's case we can look at how he rag dolled troopers. This is an example of a force feat. If we see someone rag doll star ships we can reasonably assume that they have better feats in telekinetics. Force feats are important because it's a big part of the character. Even Corran Horn's force feats are important when trying to compare him to another character. If a Jedi can't lift something heavy that's a negative but if they can create an illusion army that's something really special and in favor of said character.

[tunewalker]

Except you don't like using force feats to compare characters. In Kanaan's case we can look at how he rag dolled troopers. This is an example of a force feat. If we see someone rag doll star ships we can reasonably assume that they have better feats in telekinetics. Force feats are important because it's a big part of the character. Even Corran Horn's force feats are important when trying to compare him to another character. If a Jedi can't lift something heavy that's a negative but if they can create an illusion army that's something really special and in favor of said character.

 

I dont like looking at feats when Judging "power" as a whole. Say like assuming because some one can lift the larger rock means they ahve faster force speed. Because they can lift a star ship they can break the Force defenses of some one else with ease who doesnt lift lots of large objects on a regular basis, but faced off against powerful people or has other powerful displays of senses, or Control going for them. I feel assuming that the person with the better Alter feat isnt neccisarily stronger then the person with the better Control or Sense feats. Different abilities yes, different power no.

 

In this case Sel can be correct in my favor of feats. In a 1v1 BATTLE yes feats are neccisary. In a list of "powerful" it is counter productive, as with a lot of battles, a person can be exceptionally powerful with out useing a Single TK ability. Can Move people but still have good enough defenses to defend against those that can lift star ships. That's the point of Judging power is more complicated, but when judging a battle feats are needed. HOWEVER, assuming POWER based on those feats or assuming Control feats based off Alter Feats, I do find counter productive. Different powers are different, Different aspects of the Force are different. All Jedi are very complicated. Power is hard to Judge, and assuming other limits based on the limits of another ability is not usually good.

 

Example Assuming Satele has better Force Speed then Windu because of her ability with TK should not be done, different Jedi are different.

 

Another example of what I am talking about the difference when talking about power vs talking about ability. Obi-wan vs Anakin. When talking about power Anakin was the more powerful from all the sources I recall. but when talking about their versus you have to talk about their mentality, Obi-wans skill with Sokan and Soresu, vs Anakins Djem So. You have to talk about how Obi-wan has very strong Force Push, even if the rest of his abilities in that area arent great. And you have to talk about the fact that Anakin Rarely uses anything beyond Pushes and Pulls in his saber sequences agianst other force users.

 

Edit: another example is Count Dooku, assuming he is weak simply because he prefers more subtle uses of the force, and even more subtle and tactical uses of things like Lightning. Is also backwards. Just because some one doesnt use large displays doesnt make them weak. Just because someone doesnt use Sublte displays doesnt mean they are weak. its more complicated then that. Different abilities are different, not neccisarily more powerful. That's why when looking at arguements of "that person just isnt 'powerful' enough" when talking cross era's and that arguement being do to something like TK feats rather then just all abilities size or percision or how they compared to "powerful" people of their own era seems backwards.

 

 

Edit 2: another example of what I am talking about is when I said there could be an arguement for Corran vs Vitiate. Corran is just as strong if not stronger then Kyle with the force, though he has weaknesses his abilities with Illusions and Tutaminis make up for that, and his strength with other basic powers Rivals or surpasses most of his other contemporaries on the Council like Kyle. Kyles preformance against Caedus who is often considered around Vitiate's level means that Corran would be of a similar level here as well. Then we look at his nearly unrivaled tutaminis abilities and Vitiates HEAVY preference for Lightning and largely lacking saber abilities, I have gone on record saying I believe Corran could take him thanks to his tutaminis countering the lightning allowing him to close. But its been shot down because "corran isnt powerful enough" why isnt he powerful enough? He is on par with Katarn in his era who challenged Caedus who people put on par with Vitiate. THat logic just comes from his lack of TK, and that doesnt sit right.

 

Same thing DOES happen to Dooku, or Saba, or Plo Koon. People immediately go, "they never lifted star ships... pSHH they arent powerful" when this isnt true.

 

 

The different abilities of Jedi's the quotes like the ones Yoda gives Luke, all of these point to me to "Power" is far more complicated then people usually want to admit.

Edited December 5, 2014 by tunewalker