Understanding differences, Force users.

[tunewalker]

Because Malak was not even on KotOR!Revan's level despite having a Star Forge amp and multiple Jedi to Drain Life off of to sustain him. Not to mention the prior fatigue Revan would have gained from fighting through 'a legion of Elite Sith Troopers, Combat Droids and Sith Lords'.

 

Not to mention Darth Malak wasn't even capable of standing up to Darth Revan let alone Revan Reborn, losing his jaw for his misplaced belief that Revan was being weak.

 

Alek didn't exactly show anything better, getting one shotted by Mandalore.

 

I think Vader and Revan would share a tier with Kun, Sidious, Sith Emperor and Caedus above them. Specters of the Past makes it clear that Kun and Sidious were the two greatest "focal points of the Dark Side" that Luke had faced by then. It's essentially confirmed in 3.0 that Sith Emperor is so far above everyone else of that time that no one else even compares. Caedus is essentially outright stated to be much more powerful than Vader.

 

I largely agree with the rest of what you said, but the Malak while that is the case, whats to say Traya or Meetra or any of the others wouldnt have faired similarly against Revan? Revan did choose Malak as his number 2 for a reason. Why do that if he was both more incompetent and weaker then another choice?

 

But the rest of it I absolutely see where you are coming from fun fact is it likely largely doesnt change much beyond Kun honestly, but it is a very interesting point.

[tunewalker]

This is correct. As Kulvax mentions the star forge allowed Malak to drain the life of other force users not just to heal himself but he drew power from him. Despite drawing that much power from all those sources, despite using them to heal/sustain himself, despite all of this he was no match for Revan. What about before the star forge? He challenged Revan and lost his jaw and there was no implication that Revan even tried in that bout. Malak was Revan's friend and at the time all Revan had to draw on for apprentice's are those that followed him. He didn't have the greatest number of choices at the time. The real "empire" was elsewhere.

 

Just because Malak was the best Revan had doesn't mean that Malak is close to Revan's level.

 

His other choice included Meetra, who was also a friend, and Traya who was mentor, as far as I know. Why pick Malak over them. This is the issue with games sometimes. He didnt storm the Star Forge alone. We have no clue how good those opponents were, nor really how much power the Forge was giving him vs how much was being wasted (as most know there is always wasted energy when you put something into a machine, IE Solar Energy panels use more Solar Energy to work then the total Electrical energy they produce. IE some Solar energy is wasted in the conversion from Solar to Electrical) As far as I know their battle was still long and drawn out, somthing he could possibly have done with Nyriss or Traya both of which were stated to be "stronger" then Meetra.

 

This is one of those moments where feats are hard to reconcile. Why choose Malak during the Mando wars when he had Meetra and Traya?

[Rhyltran]

Revan did choose Malak as his number 2 for a reason. Why do that if he was both more incompetent and weaker then another choice?

 

I see you answered. Just because they were around during the mando wars who would say they'd follow his cause? Realize a choice would require the other person willing to be under said apprenticeship.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

He challenged Revan and lost his jaw and there was no implication that Revan even tried in that bout. Malak was Revan's friend and at the time all Revan had to draw on for apprentice's are those that followed him. He didn't have the greatest number of choices at the time. The real "empire" was elsewhere.

 

Just because Malak was the best Revan had doesn't mean that Malak is close to Revan's level. There wasn't a more competent choice at the time. Also Malak wasn't weak. Just wasn't as powerful as Revan.

 

 

Meetra was Revan's "number 3" during the Mando wars... AFTER Malak, Aka They would have.... because they DID.They fought in the Mando wars under Revan.

 

 

Edit: as did I.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

He had Meetra, and Traya to choose from, they were both there, Meetra was his "Number 3"......

 

I edited my post.

 

*Edit* Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes but then Revan fell to the Dark Side. Plus the Exile became as powerful as she did due to being a wound in the force. That was a big contributing factor which at the time she wasn't. Traya was also very old. Perhaps in time Malak would rival her or surpass her?

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

I edited my post.

 

*Edit* I am kind of confused by your point. After the mando wars he fell to the dark side. After Malak died well.. Malak was irrelevant then. He was dead.

 

Malak was His number 2 DURING the Mando wars. Meaning he Chose Malak OVER Meetra. Malak was stated to only get more powerful as well after falling. Revan's preformance against him doesnt change, but his choice of him over Meetra ALSO doesnt change.

 

Edit: I am well aware of the wound, but again Malak was said to have gotten much more powerful under the dark side as well and even more so after Revan Left. He was said to be more powerful then Darth Revan in the end just not as Powerful as Reborn Revan. Strength in games is Relative. Traya is stated (according to info from beni) to be more powerful then Meetra, though Meetra beat her. Malak was known to be weaker then Revan, but I am seeing no evidence that he is weaker then Meetra or Traya. We are assuming Revan would have had more issue with Traya then he had with Malak, based on feats in source books and games, which are largely relative (IE the strength of the character is relative to the strength of the others in said source book or game) Malak of course as far as I know not being in either of what Traya is in. Meetra's defeat by Nyriss and then Revan showing up Nyriss immidiately afterwards in the book, of which as I said early I put as the most proper representation of the characters shows that I honestly dont think he would have had any more issue with Meetra then he had with Malak in those situations either. He thought of Meetra as an Equal, but he also thought of Bastilla that way and she was weaker then Malak as well. Revan held a lot of people in high regard, even though they were lower then him.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Malak was His number 2 DURING the Mando wars. Meaning he Chose Malak OVER Meetra. Malak was stated to only get more powerful as well after falling. Revan's preformance against him doesnt change, but his choice of him over Meetra ALSO doesnt change.

 

Check my latest edit. As mentioned, Meetra Surik wasn't a wound in the force at the time and Traya was old. As mentioned, Malak had time to grow and improve. In time he might have surpassed Traya.

 

Basically what I'm saying is where would Malak be by the time he's Traya's age?

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[LadyKulvax]

I largely agree with the rest of what you said, but the Malak while that is the case, whats to say Traya or Meetra or any of the others wouldnt have faired similarly against Revan? Revan did choose Malak as his number 2 for a reason. Why do that if he was both more incompetent and weaker then another choice?

 

But the rest of it I absolutely see where you are coming from fun fact is it likely largely doesnt change much beyond Kun honestly, but it is a very interesting point.

 

Traya and Meetra would both have a great chance against KotOR!Revan, Traya is more powerful than Surik and had exceptional Dark Side feats, ones Darth Revan would be proud of.

 

Surik whilst likely not as powerful has strong saber skill feats, she defeated two master duelists in Traya and Atris with sheer skill as is confirmed. Take into consideration that she first fought through the Storm Beasts, then fought through an entire academy and then defeated Sion soundly multiple times, Sion himself having decades of experience against Jedi and then defeated a Sith Lord more powerful than herself.

 

Every single one of those Sith amped by the most powerful Dark Side nexus in the galaxy whilst she herself was physically and mentally ill.

 

One seriously stunning series of lightsaber feats.

[LadyKulvax]

Malak was His number 2 DURING the Mando wars. Meaning he Chose Malak OVER Meetra. Malak was stated to only get more powerful as well after falling. Revan's preformance against him doesnt change, but his choice of him over Meetra ALSO doesnt change.

 

Revan chose Malak as his direct second in command of their fleet, instead of just msking Meetra his subordinate however, he decided to give her direct command of over half of the entire fleet and left her to her own devices in the battles of Dxun, Serroco, etc...

 

Revan gave Meetra command of over half his forces, he only turned Malak into the second in command of his own half of the Republic fleet.

 

Not to mention Revan states Meetra was his most trusted ally in the war, evidence suggests that despite the fact he was the supreme commander of Republic forces he was wise enough to give Meetra her own command.

[tunewalker]

Traya and Meetra would both have a great chance against KotOR!Revan, Traya is more powerful than Surik and had exceptional Dark Side feats, ones Darth Revan would be proud of.

 

Surik whilst likely not as powerful has strong saber skill feats, she defeated two master duelists in Traya and Atris with sheer skill as is confirmed. Take into consideration that she first fought through the Storm Beasts, then fought through an entire academy and then defeated Sion soundly multiple times, Sion himself having decades of experience against Jedi and then defeated a Sith Lord more powerful than herself.

 

Every single one of those Sith amped by the most powerful Dark Side nexus in the galaxy whilst she herself was physically and mentally ill.

 

One seriously stunning series of lightsaber feats.

 

This is what I heard "Traya is more powerful then Surik

" None of this means anything to me. Strength in a game is relative. Thus feats in that game, are also Relative. Both the ability of Revan vs Malak is Relative to Revan and Malak. As the feat of Meetra vs Trayus Academy is also relative. With how mysterious the force can be. Just because the Meetra one sounds Imperssive and the Malak one does not, does not mean Malak could not have done the same. I know the feats, but as I have stated I need more then that as feats themselves are exceedingly HARD for me to Judge when what is considered "strong" is dependent on the person your talking to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE its not about who lifts the biggest rock, who fights the biggest army, we are missing somthing here.

2:02 he did nothing except see a built lightsaber "skills complete" as compared to

how does he know? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A compared to

1:28-1:30 they mirror each other....but in both battles, between Anakin and Dooku, and between Vader and Luke Niether Luke nor Anakin use any Alter powers at all. The Force is harder to judge then that..... Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Revan chose Malak as his direct second in command of their fleet, instead of just msking Meetra his subordinate however, he decided to give her direct command of over half of the entire fleet and left her to her own devices in the battles of Dxun, Serroco, etc...

 

Revan gave Meetra command of over half his forces, he only turned Malak into the second in command of his own half of the Republic fleet.

 

Not to mention Revan states Meetra was his most trusted ally in the war, evidence suggests that despite the fact he was the supreme commander of Republic forces he was wise enough to give Meetra her own command.

 

That means something to me. In other words Meetra was his REAL number 2 and Malak his number 3. After that Malak jumped to number 2 because Meetra went into exile and wanted no part of the Jedi Civil War.

[LadyKulvax]

No Traya is confirmed to be more powerful than Surik and more knowledgable but Meetra defeated her regardless through lightsaber skill, this is stated in the New Essential Chronology.

 

Traya has considerably more feats than Malak.

 

In Cut Content she is displayed ragdolling and completely dominating not just Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar and Vrook Lamar but also Lonna Vash, all at once, without even gesturing. Considering all four of these were Jedi High Council members and one of them in Kavar is stated to be a veteran Jedi warrior (IIRC), then that is a superior feat than anything Malak has.

 

Malak's best feat is stunning Bastila and Carth Onasi and then kind of defeating a KotOR!Revan whom was tortured and imprisoned for hours beforehand and had fought through an entire Interdictor cruiser worth of Sith(I believe the Prima Guide even goes as far as to say every room was filled with elite troopers and Sith).

[Selenial]

That means something to me. In other words Meetra was his REAL number 2 and Malak his number 3. After that Malak jumped to number 2 because Meetra went into exile and wanted no part of the Jedi Civil War.

 

Surik was not his number two, she was his equal.

 

I agree mostly with Rayla's list, but I'd swap Revan and Kun around. Sure Marr says no one alive can face Vitiate alone, but that was before he had even met Revan.

 

Spoilers for a certain 3.0 fight, but these are my reasons.

 

Revan was actually challenging Satele, The Emperors Wrath, Marr, Lana Beniko, Theron Shan, Shae Vizsla and Jakarro. All expert shots, blade masters or force users.

Satele was using Battle Meditation, so no I won't accept Nexus as an argument against Revan, noting Marr got to draw off a Nexus and a BM amp, as did the wrath.

 

Revan fought them all, Satele, Marr and Beniko were all obviously struggling, as evidenced by their voice acting. Revan actually managed to channel an attack that incapacitated all of them bar the Wrath, almost killing them if not for his own need to maintain a force barrier.

 

He was capable of fold space, learned Essence Transfer off Vitiate and much more, while he may be inferior to Vitiate, he showed himself as Vitiate level in that he far outweighed all his contemporaries, and is easily deserving of his spot in tier 1.

[Aurbere]

You'd think he would have killed any of those non-Force sensitives during that fight, with all of that power. :/

 

Still, I'd put Revan just below Vitiate as it is apparent that no one is on that level in TOR.

[tunewalker]

No Traya is confirmed to be more powerful than Surik and more knowledgable but Meetra defeated her regardless through lightsaber skill, this is stated in the New Essential Chronology.

 

Traya has considerably more feats than Malak.

 

In Cut Content she is displayed ragdolling and completely dominating not just Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar and Vrook Lamar but also Lonna Vash, all at once, without even gesturing. Considering all four of these were Jedi High Council members and one of them in Kavar is stated to be a veteran Jedi warrior (IIRC), then that is a superior feat than anything Malak has.

 

Malak's best feat is stunning Bastila and Carth Onasi and then kind of defeating a KotOR!Revan whom was tortured and imprisoned for hours beforehand and had fought through an entire Interdictor cruiser worth of Sith(I believe the Prima Guide even goes as far as to say every room was filled with elite troopers and Sith).

 

Yes I saw Traya was more poweful then Meetra despite Meetra beating her. I knwo that.... the rest is a bunch of feats which are meaningless (aka have 0 meaning to me) and I refer you back to the top. Feats are Relative... I dont care. Bastilla was a gifted Jedi and one the orders most powerful This means she very well could have been stronger then the 4 you named combined. Not to mention TK could be more complicated than that "its not about who lifted the biggest rock" that phrase look familiar to anyone. Unless there is a character that faced both, as a means of judging (IE Vader>Anakin>Dooku) or something that directly states where a character lies I largely dont care. Feats are next to impossible to judge, truthfully, as The Force has shown itself to be more complicated then that. Traya was not caring if she killed the Masters last I checked. Malak on the other hand cared.... Star Wars Rebels "Old Masters" Restraint is harder then lack of Restraint, percision is harder then Freedom of usage. "alter skills can often be only as strong as the situation demands" Again quoting myself. "master lifting stones is one thing, this is totally different. NO! no Different only different in your mind" Luke and Yoda. Seriously unless there is a direct link or unles you are trying to cross eras... Dont list feats when talking to me unless there is a direct connection to the characters... its a waste of your time that was at the top of the post. The part that was truthfully more meaningful and more important the part that was largely meant to be focused on.

[tunewalker]

Surik was not his number two, she was his equal.

 

I agree mostly with Rayla's list, but I'd swap Revan and Kun around. Sure Marr says no one alive can face Vitiate alone, but that was before he had even met Revan.

 

Spoilers for a certain 3.0 fight, but these are my reasons.

 

Revan was actually challenging Satele, The Emperors Wrath, Marr, Lana Beniko, Theron Shan, Shae Vizsla and Jakarro. All expert shots, blade masters or force users.

Satele was using Battle Meditation, so no I won't accept Nexus as an argument against Revan, noting Marr got to draw off a Nexus and a BM amp, as did the wrath.

 

Revan fought them all, Satele, Marr and Beniko were all obviously struggling, as evidenced by their voice acting. Revan actually managed to channel an attack that incapacitated all of them bar the Wrath, almost killing them if not for his own need to maintain a force barrier.

 

He was capable of fold space, learned Essence Transfer off Vitiate and much more, while he may be inferior to Vitiate, he showed himself as Vitiate level in that he far outweighed all his contemporaries, and is easily deserving of his spot in tier 1.

 

I thought Exar Kun was confirmed as being second only to Vitiate/ "most powerful person in OR other then Vitiate" also.... meaningless feats are meaningless. I dont know where to place any of these people except that Satele is likely at least 3 tiers bellow Revan. The rest I dont know Who else have they fought? Dont list feats about armies or droids or doors or moving ships or other force users that havent fought any one relative, or comparisons to sith that have not been compared to any one relative... I dont care.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

You'd think he would have killed any of those non-Force sensitives during that fight, with all of that power. :/

 

Still, I'd put Revan just below Vitiate as it is apparent that no one is on that level in TOR.

 

He wanted Theron alive, Shae was in the air on a jet pack and Jakarro was too far out, would have to TK him in. He does, of course, but obviously the Wookiee wasn't a priority. Oh, and both Satele and Lana were healers, if you count Game Mechanics. Given that Satele was in a battle meditation trance, I'd at least expect she was, so for Revan to kill someone would be difficult

[LadyKulvax]

Exar Kun has superior feats to Revan by a fair margin.

 

Revan is never compared to the likes of the Sith Emperor or Sidious, infact it is made clear the Sith Emperor is seriously superior to Revan and everyone else of that time.

 

Kun however is compared to both and even stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy in his time and superior to every Ancient Sith before him, Kevin J. Anderson confirms this himself. Kun is also stated to be 'much more powerful' in the Force than any one Jedi of his time. He is also referred to as unparalleled as a lightsaber duelist.

 

Kun is compared to Sidious several times, both as a sorceror and as a Sith Lord, though he is of course inferior.

 

I don't think 3.0 Revan is severely inferior or anything but like half a tier below the Sith Emperor and Exar Kun.

[Aurbere]

He wanted Theron alive, Shae was in the air on a jet pack and Jakarro was too far out, would have to TK him in. He does, of course, but obviously the Wookiee wasn't a priority. Oh, and both Satele and Lana were healers, if you count Game Mechanics. Given that Satele was in a battle meditation trance, I'd at least expect she was, so for Revan to kill someone would be difficult

 

So where do you put him in the grand scheme of things?

 

If we're using the lists we made, I put him above Plagueis and below Vitiate.

[Selenial]

Exar Kun has superior feats to Revan by a fair margin.

 

Revan is never compared to the likes of the Sith Emperor or Sidious, infact it is made clear the Sith Emperor is seriously superior to Revan and everyone else of that time.

 

Kun however is compared to both and even stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy in his time and superior to every Ancient Sith before him, Kevin J. Anderson confirms this himself. Kun is also stated to be 'much more powerful' in the Force than any one Jedi of his time. He is also referred to as unparalleled as a lightsaber duelist.

 

Kun is compared to Sidious several times, both as a sorceror and as a Sith Lord, though he is of course inferior.

 

I don't think 3.0 Revan is severely inferior or anything but like half a tier below the Sith Emperor and Exar Kun.

 

List? Quotes for on par with Sidious (Since Revan has those too)?

 

Revan came out of a comatose, drugged state and one shot a dark Council member who was amped by Dark Rage and her own personal nexus.

He went toe to toe with a prepped Vitiate after killing Imperial Guards who were supposedly the best soldiers in the galaxy, in seconds.

His 3.0 feats outweigh Kun's, in my opinion. When is it made clear Revan is inferior to Vitiate? Marr says no one alive can face Vitiate, but that's when they think he isn't Revan, and have never met him. Marr goes on to say things like "So... Much power" while evidently struggling.

 

The only thing I can think of like this is that Revan can't kill Vitiate, and those are different things.

[Selenial]

So where do you put him in the grand scheme of things?

 

If we're using the lists we made, I put him above Plagueis and below Vitiate.

 

Agreed, I think.

[Selenial]

I thought Exar Kun was confirmed as being second only to Vitiate/ "most powerful person in OR other then Vitiate" also.... meaningless feats are meaningless. I dont know where to place any of these people except that Satele is likely at least 3 tiers bellow Revan. The rest I dont know Who else have they fought? Dont list feats about armies or droids or doors or moving ships or other force users that havent fought any one relative, or comparisons to sith that have not been compared to any one relative... I dont care.

 

When?

 

You're posting double standard after double standard. First Traya can't be better than the Exile because quotes don't count, feats do. Then feats are meaningless, quotes also aren't allowed, so you're placing these people cause reasons?

 

Also, Rofl at what you think constitutes a feat...

[tunewalker]

When?

 

You're posting double standard after double standard. First Traya can't be better than the Exile because quotes don't count, feats do. Then feats are meaningless, quotes also aren't allowed, so you're placing these people cause reasons?

 

Also, Rofl at what you think constitutes a feat...

 

Did you see the Tier list... Traya is higher then Exile...... so... inconsitency is where. Seriously does any one read what I write.

 

Please try again k thanks. Feats mean something but only when they are relative. The force is more complicated then people give credit for.

 

 

Edit:

because Games often allow for a lot of player choice and customization, as well as the strength of all characters in the game being relative to the strength of all other characters in the game, and sometimes even based off game mechanics.

 

C Tier: Revan

 

D Tier: Traya

 

E Tier: Meetra Surik

 

Quoting myself cus clearly didnt read.

 

 

Edit: better yet http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7842348&postcount=1

 

 

Edit 2: I think I am seeing our disconect 1 is lack of reading what I write, or fully understanding my intent, which can admittedly be difficult as my writing skills are far from high caliber or comprehensible. Just be glad this is not hand written. 2 is game mechanics are taken much more cannon by you then me. Also liking feats specifically Alter having more weight, the second all being apart of my "top" which basically means for me its largely unchangeable. Its that same material different interpretation thing I am talking about, but at least we now know our disconnect .

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

List? Quotes for on par with Sidious (Since Revan has those too)?

 

Revan came out of a comatose, drugged state and one shot a dark Council member who was amped by Dark Rage and her own personal nexus.

He went toe to toe with a prepped Vitiate after killing Imperial Guards who were supposedly the best soldiers in the galaxy, in seconds.

His 3.0 feats outweigh Kun's, in my opinion. When is it made clear Revan is inferior to Vitiate? Marr says no one alive can face Vitiate, but that's when they think he isn't Revan, and have never met him. Marr goes on to say things like "So... Much power" while evidently struggling.

 

The only thing I can think of like this is that Revan can't kill Vitiate, and those are different things.

 

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.

 

- Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design

 

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a*master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted,*and rebuilt by this evil power.

- The Dark Side Sourcebook

 

Then, abruptly, he stiffened, his breath seeming to freeze in his throat. There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him.

 

And laughing.

 

- Specters of the Past

 

I'll go and get the exact quote for the fourth one.

 

Oh and the Sith Emperor completely overwhelms and one shots 'whole' Revan once he stops attempting mental domination.

 

Not to mention the Dread Masters stated to be some of the most powerful Sith Lords on record are stated to not even compare to the Sith Emperor.

 

Exar Kun has used a mass drain feat twice over and with marginal aid whilst doing so, firstlu draining thousands of Massassi children and then of course draining nearly the entire Massassi population before beginning his ritual.

 

A supreme showing of power few Sith can compare to.

[tunewalker]

Honestly I largely agree with Rayla I am going to edit the main post to have some of this in there as how some of my view has changed with all of your help. I appreciate it very much thank you .

 

Edits Finished.

 

I am interested in seeing more of the direction other people come from. Again I am largely more interested in how your veiw is shaped then the view itself. That is the insight I am looking for, Some I think I am getting others, I feel its missing.... I do feel the focus is shifting a bit to much towards the arbitrary list, but it was honestly expected to a degree. Any time you through up a list people inevitably focus on it, but it does help illustrate my confusion, and I do appreciate people help in understanding that confusion.

 

 

Edit 2: I want you all to think about this for a second, and this is part of the confusion with the list I was hoping people would focus on. With Revan's preformance against Vitiate, and Katarns Preformance against Caedus, and with multiple people stating Vitiate and Caedus are around the same level Katarn and Revan must also be near the same level for his preformance against Caedus, so where ever Revan goes... Katarn, Corran and Saba all follow as Corran and Saba are both Stronger then Katarn, and my understanding is Katarn would have to be at least on the same tier or maybe 1 Tier below Revan to preform as well against his Era's Vitiate IE Caedus. And yet when talking about these 3 none of them are considered on par with a majority of the power houses from OR, or PT. My question ends up becoming why is this, when Caedus gets so much credit. Where is the disconnect.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker