Understanding differences, Force users.

[tunewalker]

Ok I have been intending to do this for a while, since I came back and was just waiting for the time to sit down and do so.

 

Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is to try to illustrate where I am coming from and try to understand where my fellow forum goers are coming from when it comes to Force Users, and Force users from different era's. The structure of the later portion of the thread may be "controversial" I am hoping people focus less on it and more on the intent of the content. Also Warning, I tend to ramble... DuH

 

Ok So time to begin. First when taking into account feats of a character/ Characters, for me it is always Books > Source Books > games, because Games often allow for a lot of player choice and customization, as well as the strength of all characters in the game being relative to the strength of all other characters in the game, and sometimes even based off game mechanics. Source books are often, TO Games, so they are just one step removed, and the info they have is usually based off material from a book.They are, to me largely a second hand source, HOWEVER I do strive to take all things as they are, and take all things as true with the Books representation being the most accurate, thus reconciling any issues between game/ source book contradiction of Books in the simpelist way possible, trying my best to keep both iterations true as well as keep the intent of both as close to true as possible.

 

I Also dont believe Force Powers/ Feats, are as easily measured as "who can lift the biggest thing".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE Maybe the "strength" of a master TK is not about the Size, but about the amount. The Force is a very mysterious thing. In "Old Masters" episode of Star Wars Rebels we see Kanan easily fling full grown stormtroopers around like they are nothing but in that very same episode moments before he struggles to slowly move a much smaller teenager Ezra. This likens me to think that the difficulty often seen by jedi such as Ahsoka is less do to weight, and more do to precision. When not caring what happened to his opponent Kanan could rag doll them as quick as he wanted and didnt need heavy concentration, but when using KINETIC force on an ally, he needs to be careful to put to much Kinetic energy onto them so as not to physically harm them while moving them. That is why they call it TeleKINETICS, because it is applying Kinetic energy to something with your mind.

 

 

Also I dont think it is as Easy as Alter> Sense> Control. While Control, sense then Alter is the Order a Young Jedi and Padawaan learn it in as that is the difficulty order when first teaching, this does not appear to be the case when they grow older and become Knights or masters. This is Especially true when comparing Jedi vs Sith simply because of the different out looks on what the force is for and how to use it.

 

 

A good example is once a Jedi becomes a Knight, and on his way to becoming a Master (or even after becoming a Master) a Jedi Largely looks inward, for self improvement and for greater mental and Spiritual Enlightenment, they seek to understand themselves and the Universe, and to keep everything in Balance and natural. These goals when just reading will often result in the Jedi having very Strong Control and Senses as Altering the Natural order of things is not their primary goal, many Jedi (a good example being Quigon) will only use alter powers when nessicary, even Master Yoda when combating opponents as we see in the movies and the First episode of The Clone Wars episode largely does not use his alter abilities beyond what is absolutely nescissary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofS8GYuMEjs. In short, more often then not the Jedi's Alter Strength is only as strong as it needs to be. Their "atler feats" are similarly only as impressive as the moments they found themselves in dictated they needed to be. Further evidence of their inner reflection and greater grasp of Control, is a Jedi's longevity caused by use of the lightside. Several sources speak of the rejuvinating and sustaining essence of the Light side, keeping the users body much fitter much longer, as Control is about controlling one's body This makes sense to be a by product of most Jedi's inner reflection. We also see a lot of Light exclusive powers largely falling into the Control or Sense catagories, and the few Light Alter powers are specifically their to counter act Dark Side Alter powers, essentially returning what the Dark Sider corrupted back to its proper state, or preventing the Dark Sider from corrupting anything any further (Wall of Light, Sever force Any one)

 

Sith on the other hand are of course the exact opposite, they strive to change and control every thing around them, to alter the enviroment to suit their needs. This is why we see things like sorcery and why Lightning and the like is so common among them. They are also the first to usually resort to force powers in a fight, (See Maul vs Obi-wan and Quigon, Dooku vs Yoda, Palpatine vs Yoda, Vader vs Luke, and many more). The Dark Sider rarely looks inward or for spiritual enlightenment rather they look outwards as what they perceive as a problem with the universe and attempt to alter it. The Dark side again opposite the light often times degrades the users physical body, they could largely come from the lack of inner refelction and Control on the Dark Siders part. They are so focused on changing everything else, that they are allowing their bodies to literally be consumed

 

 

With this in mind I thought I would put together a short "tier list" if you will, I believe putting a full "Most powerful LIst" would ultimately be FAR to taxing and have WAY to many assumptions I am not ready to make especially with how mysterious the force can be. In addition I am going to be doing the Era's mostly seperate before combining them as a means to better understand where its going, note not all characters will be here, some arent here cus they end up to low, others are not here because I just dont know enough to really put them here. Still others are not here cus I forgot. The list is not comprehensive or anything of the like, it is mostly done to in some ways illustrate some of my confusion, and to have others help me Identify my confusion. If my confusion is largely from the top, well, that's the top not much up there is really going to change so them's the breaks. So lets begin oldest to newest.

 

Disclaimer: in this list I am not saying any one in a lower tier can not beat some on in a higher tier, given the proper set up they certainly can, in fact I would say up to AT LEAST 2 tiers down can compare to those 2 Tiers above given the write situations/ ability and specialty differences. Possibly 3 tiers at the lower tiers as the gap between A and B seem to be larger then all other gaps.

 

OR Tier

 

A Tier: Vitiate

 

 

Does any explination actually need to be given here, he is pretty much confirmed to be the most powerful being in the Old Republic.

 

 

B Tier: Exar Kun, HoT (Maybe)

 

 

As far as i have been able to gather and from every conversation I have seen, Exar Kun has pretty much always been known as being the most powerful person pre-vitiate, this would automatically make him stronger then Revan, the HoT is also up here with him but just maybe, there was a lot of circumstances within the battle he eventually had with the Emperor/ voice that knowing just how much under Vitiate he is, is difficult to judge, but here I am giving him the benefit of the doubt

 

 

C Tier: Revan, Nomi Sunrider (maybe), Barsen'thor (maybe)

 

 

Revan's preformance against Vitiate was undeniable, and the amount of influence he still has thousands of years later is very impressive, he is the Definer of this tier. Nomi is next because she was the next more powerful to Exar Kun during her time, but again the circumstances means its hard to judge just HOW close but again benefit of the doubt, is benefit of the doubt. SImilarly Baren'thor seems to likely be the next most powerful behind the HoT. The Act 1 usage of the healing ability likely limited his potential quite a degree, still he doesnt have the title of Barsen'thor for nothing.

 

 

D Tier: Nyriss, Traya, Malak, Satele(maybe), Malgus (maybe) Ulic Qel Droma

 

 

Ya this seems to be the "welcome to the dark side" Tier with how many are here. Traya as beni Said has been confirmed stronger then Meetra even though Meetra won (again lower tiers can beat higher since the tiers are not that largely seperated) Malak was Revan's number 2 for a reason, and it clearly was not his tactical abilities. Nyriss defeated Meetra though she was recieving help from Scourge, HOWEVER the battle is HIGHLY circumstantial, but the fact that Meetra had scourge helping i feel off sets that a little. Also Revan's "ease of defeat" of Nyriss is not neccisarily indicative of Revan being massively stronger. From everything I have read and my interpretation of the book (again as above trying to reconcile book, source book, and Games all at once while still keeping the point of the BOOK was trying to get across) Nyriss was caught entirely off gaurd. Meaning she literally had 0 gaurd up when she was struck by her own attack, and thus would have been no different then the gaurds she herself fried moments earlier. Her overconfidence killed her, saving nothing for defense just in case something went wrong meant that even trying to put up a defense after wards was just to slow, and to late. If she had taken a more balanced approach and engaged him in a saber duel, the battle may have been much closer and more intense. Ulic, Satele and Malgus are all just the next logical steps behind Nomi, and the Barsen'thor respectively.

 

 

E Tier: Meetra Surik, Bastilla Shan

 

 

Most saw Meetra coming here, but many likely didnt see Bastilla coming. Meetra was very close in power wise to Revan according to both the games and the source books, but so was Bastilla he respected both of these fine women, but Bastilla proved to be weaker then Malak, Meetra was known to be weaker then Traya and proved to be weaker then Nyriss, however as i said previously the tiers are extremely close especially Tier C-F in all Honesty.

 

 

F Tier: Nihilus, Sion, Scourge, (I am sure others I dont know)

 

 

Again logical after Meetra Surik, While they were powerful with in the one ability each specialized in, Nihilus was less then alive he didnt have power of his own, and I suspected if he did not continue to feed he would have eventually died. Sions dark healing is largely just his ability to stay angry, but his ability to do much else beyond just live is truly a poor shell of a man, but credit to where it is do, they were both VERY strong and deserve a spot on the list. And Scourge was a powerful and needed ally of Meetra and Revan, just never got the impression he was on either of their levels, but strong enough to make it here.

 

 

 

I would have liked to put Nox, and the Second Wrath as well, unfortunately the opponents they cannonically face (the ones in their actual Class story) are to unknown by me for me to do either justice.

 

 

Establishing Character:

 

 

Tier B: Darth Vader

 

 

Vader is the character I am using as the "bridge between eras" he is one of the most explored characters in Star Wars and has been compared to people through out eras every where. Here he lands on B tier, because in nearly every comparison between him and Kun it has become a near dead heat. Saber ability, physical and TK vs Sorcery. All that's ever really agreed on is its often to close to comfortably call, and either winner is never definitive.

 

 

 

PT Tier

 

A Tier: Yoda (maybe)

 

 

The reason for the Maybe here is some may argue to create a "special Tier" for him and Sidious (who him and LUke I am not bothering placing since every one basically already knows) and while I might do so for Sidious and have Luke as a "Double S" I am unsure if that is neccisary from Yoda. The RotJ novel suggest Sidious was even more powerful then he was against Yoda, and because of that it may have been at that time that Sidious finally hit S tier and may have just been a High A Tier up until that point. Its still kind of speculation, but I Didnt want to go and make another tier for one character.... call me lazy .

 

 

B Tier: Mace Windu

 

 

Second only to Yoda, and another character often compared with Vader. They both have their own variation on a saber form in addition to being masters of all seven forms. They both have impressive displays of speed, and strength, and both have impressive TK displays. They are very close to call and are compared for a reason. Also yes, more speculation happens when crossing era's its unavoidable

 

 

C Tier: Anakin Skywalker

 

 

From most sources especially the RotS novel Anakin is the third strongest on the council, its no wonder he is on the same Tier as Revan, both Prodigies of their time, and both having very similar outlooks on tactics and the like

.

 

D Tier: Dooku

 

 

What was that, dark side tier... oh ya..... A man who's only rivals were thought to be Windu and Yoda until his defeat by Skywalker, this is not one to be taken lightly

 

 

 

E Tier: Obi-wan, Kit Fisto, Darth Maul, Some other PT masters

 

 

Another character that like Meetra was called an match for a person in C tier, this is a common accurance from what I have seen. Many are aware that Anakin was more powerful, but Obi-wan's knowledge skill and ability along with his close proximity in power to Anakin allowed him to be very much equals of Anakin. Maul is here cus Obi-wan is here, and Fisto obviously the longest survivor of Palpatines attack I believe for a reason. Other masters are likely here to, but ya to much speculation for me to exactly say who.

 

 

F Tier: Savage, Ventress, Other Pt Masters

 

 

Ventress and Savage were power houses, but I felt as the Clone wars went on others did surpass them, but never very largely. (also Dark side tier 2?????)

 

 

 

NJO Tier

 

A Tier: Caedus

 

 

Again often compared to Vitiate and the book covers do straight call him more powerful then Vader, and its not hard to see why, he will bassically help define the NJO list

 

 

B Tier: Jaina, Kyp Durron (maybe)

 

 

Look at "the real most powerful" thread, Jaina is again often compared to vader and is incredibly close, in addition her eventual defeat of her brother, though the battle was close and it was clear that Caedus was ultimately stronger, is indicative of her power and she would only grow from there. Kyp Durron was the only one considered on par with the Skywalkers, and for a time was Jaina's master. He is the strongest Master as far as I know.

 

 

C Tier: Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne, Joiner Lomi Plo, Mara Jade

 

 

This is based on how these guys compare to each other and how Kyle and Saba Compared to Caedus. Kyle with the help of 4 people who by the standards of the NJO wont even make this list faired very well against Caedus, such a preformance i felt meant Kyle would need to AT LEAST be on par with Revan to face some one who is supposedly on par with Vitiate with such success. Saba and Corran make it here as well as both are actually considered slightly STONGER then Kyle on the council. Saba had the "stupid defeat" similar in respect to things like Boba and Jango, or Sidious. She was shoved hard by Caedus into an exploding droid, but she had enough defense against this more powerful opponent to quickly recover and move so as not to be killed. That alone is indicative of power. Corran was Kyle's better during much of their early training days as Corran was second only to Gantoris and then second only to Kyp in most everything except TK and first in both Illusions and Tutaminis, and Kyle only caught up with the Valley of the Jedi Incident. When Kenth was killed it was Corran they suggested take over not Kyle even though the 2 are similar mentally, Kyle was not considered to my knowledge. (obviously kyp was not cus the circumstance was partially his fault for the Sun Crusher incident and his unpopular decisions during the Vong war) Saba was not considered as skilled a Duelist as Kyle or Corran, but she was considered a more powerful force user leveling her out with these 2. Lomi is largely how well she preformed against Luke and how well her subordinate preformed against Saba. Mara Jade's preformance against Caedus basically makes this a mandatory spot for her, there is no way she is going lower.

 

 

 

D Tier: Kenth Hamner, Welk (Joiner), Lumiya

 

 

Next logical choices with Saba being above them, they were extremely close and very powerful NJO Force users for Kenth and Welk. Lumiya similarly was a very powerful Force user of her time and only the best of the order were capable of taking her on

 

 

E Tier: Kam Solusar, Leia Organa Solo (maybe)

 

 

Kam Solusar was never a push over and had as far as i know had some training before coming to Luke's academy. His skills even grew, but he was later considered to be extremly close to the masters above, but they were still considered to be stronger. Leia after training under Saba advanced very quickly and easily became one of the Orders strongest Knights. Defeating people younger and more physically fit then her on a fairly constant basis, some speculated that she was becoming closer and closer to her true potential, and was really letting that shine. She was said to be the match of any knight in the order. Though its possible she is lower, I am giving her the benefit of the doubt here as many of her later feats as well as the claim of "reaching her true potential" and "Match of any Knight in the order" were very telling of her climb in power.

 

 

 

F Tier: Alema Rar, Tahiri Veila, Jaden Korr

 

 

These ones round out the list, Jaden was a Prodigy among the NJO knights, unfortunatly not much is known about him after his battle with the Ragnos ghost. Alema Rar and Tahiri were both just under Leia and while they could fight close with her, the higher masters such as Saba and Corran, and Kyle were known for making these 2's abilities into childs play, however they could do similar to the average knights of the NJO.

 

 

 

As with all the tiers, there are probably people that belong that probably werent listed, some of this is usually accepted, like the A Tiers. and even teh B Tiers, I am just finding myself confused by the C tier issues with Saba, Corran and Kyle. I dont know how to reconcile Kyle being on par with or weaker then Corran and Saba, with his preformance against Caedus with, Caedus being on par with Vitiate, with Corran and Saba and Kyle supposedly no match for Revan.

 

But there you go. That is the mess that is my veiw of Star Wars so am I missing some,thing, was I miss informed, or is it just the weight I put on sources or basic theory and way I oganize thoughts that is the difference..... In the end... What is the difference of veiws?

 

 

Edit: new information about Windu and Dooku put them on the same level, working to rectify small issues with this and likely issues ith OR and NJO. Information gathering is much appreciated. Though I am glad people understand a little better, and I am also glad I am beggining to understand others a little better.

 

Edit 2: after some information on Dooku and Windu, I have decided not to move them. they are near equals that is true, but I think this more comes from how close the tiers really are. And just goes to show that.

 

 

Edit 3: i largely agree with Rayla and new light has shown that Malak should be down in Tier F along side Sion, as he was not truly Revan's number 2, that was Meetra. However the current debate is largely about Revan vs Exar Kun, and I will continue to watch that with much interest. Thus far I agree with Rayla, how ever I dont feel the need to to move either Kun or Revan up a spot. While I WHOLLY agree with what Rayla has said, this to me is again a matter of how close the Tiers really are. Also to me the quote "as strong with the Dark Side as Palpatine" from Luke is questionable. We know Palpatine was the strongest Dark Sider, so it would be impossible for Kun to match that strength, HOWEVER it would not be impossible for him to match that Malouce. This could be another one of those interpretation things. Interested to see where it goes.

 

Edit 4: Obviously this list is not something done by the community, but I am using the community to help shape my own view... thank you community for sharing such wonderful insight with me.

 

 

Edit 5. Looking over info and further reflection has me adding Darth Marr to F tier as well as moving Satele, and Malgus down to F tier as well. Bastilla drops off the list as she is weaker then Malak who in the earlier update was moved to F tier. HoT moves to D tier. Barsen'thor Moves to E tier, Second Wrath is also added to E tier.

Edited December 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Interesting thoughts, but your tiers are a bit flawed. But that's OK, that can easily be resolved.

 

I'll get to that later if you want.

[tunewalker]

Interesting thoughts, but your tiers are a bit flawed. But that's OK, that can easily be resolved.

 

I'll get to that later if you want.

 

If you wish as I said with the Tiers, they were largely hastily thrown together and just their to illustrate some of the idea. I am more then aware there are likely flaws, but that is PART of what I am trying to re-establish. The base view points however, are much harder to re-establish or change/ highly unlikely for me to every truly change. (the ones at the top) and because of this pure "feats" are very difficult to judge. Its why I often ask "who did they do it to?" as they can more often then not be more telling then the feats themselves at least for me as some times its harder to establish what is really "power" or "skill" or what have you when the Force itself is such a mystery and that mystery (again for me at least) is actually part of the point.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read, and I do look forward to others views as well as yours, any help people can give to have a greater understanding of YOUR view points will be interesting. The parts that cant be changed... and the parts of which there is lee way. In a way people now have a "how to approach a debate" with me , because now you know how I weigh different things. From sources to what I find "impressive" for feats.

[Silenceo]

Interesting read, though I feel as if there should almost be tiers within tiers, but that is way too complicated!

[tunewalker]

Interesting read, though I feel as if there should almost be tiers within tiers, but that is way too complicated!

 

Tierception https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BivYMz7Ft4

[Selenial]

Your OR tiers are all over the shop, no offence, and I think a more flat comparison is needed on some of them, especially HOT vs Revan.

And really everything about Revan on this list... And Surik... And Bastilla... And Satele... And a lot of people Really, but that's understandable since you're an NJO guy.

 

Oh, and Dooku > Mace, but yeh.

[Aurbere]

Oh, and Dooku > Mace, but yeh.

 

Saving this if I win the Kaggath.

[tunewalker]

Your OR tiers are all over the shop, no offence, and I think a more flat comparison is needed on some of them, especially HOT vs Revan.

And really everything about Revan on this list... And Surik... And Bastilla... And Satele... And a lot of people Really, but that's understandable since you're an NJO guy.

 

Oh, and Dooku > Mace, but yeh.

 

There is a reason why the HoT has a (maybe) next to him . he is only that high do to "benefit of the doubt".

 

If you start quoting source books that I place on lower priority and as "less true" then the Novels themselves... well I refer you to the top, but if you have quotes from the Revan Novel that show all of these to be untrue please let me know. That's the point.

 

Same with the Dooku> Mace, is there a quote for that, or is that speculation? would you said Dooku> Vader???? I find that very hard to believe. are you argueing Mace is given to much credit when compared to Vader?

 

Remember that part of the disclaimer with the tiers is that several of the tiers are extremely close to one another so Surik is STILL considered "Near Revans Equal" which as far as I know is cannonically true.

 

 

Edit: also Remember again the top, "flat comparisons" I try to avoid as much as possible, unless its a pure battle as that leads into speculation of what actually takes power and what doesnt. I am trying to give every character as much benefit of the doubt as I can, thus the lists are largely formed by people of that single era, only when crossing era's do I try to use a well known an well established character such as Vader or Caedus to set up a baseline, then use that baseline to form the rest. The OR was the original Baseline with Vader, and Caedus largely being establishing characters for jumps to other era's.

 

I would very much like to hear the info on the OR, thats the point... to come to learn.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Dooku has a lot of quotes putting him equal to or above Mace. Same with Anakin, actually.

[tunewalker]

Dooku has a lot of quotes putting him equal to or above Mace. Same with Anakin, actually.

 

May I see some so I know what you are talking about. I am largely going by the Quote from the Movie interviews which stated Windu as "the second baddest dude in the galaxy" (which of course was excluding Sidious, but as far as I am aware was not ever excluding Dooku or Anakin). These are the where I could missing information. This is me reaching out for that info ... I am knowledge hungry.

 

Edit:

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

May I see some so I know what you are talking about. I am largely going by the Quote from the Movie interviews which stated Windu as "the second baddest dude in the galaxy" (which of course was excluding Sidious, but as far as I am aware was not ever excluding Dooku or Anakin). These are the where I could missing information. This is me reaching out for that info ... I am knowledge hungry.

 

Edit:

 

Here's some Dooku quotes.

 

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order’s most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

“Hm.” Yoda stirred again with his stick. “Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?” He nodded. “Best of all, Dooku would be!” His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one they looked away. “Our great student!” Yoda’s ears flexed, then drooped. “Our great failure.”

- Yoda

 

Basically, these quotes suggest Dooku is on Mace's level or above him.

 

I can dig up more, but those were some I could pull out right away.

[tunewalker]

Here's some Dooku quotes.

 

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order’s most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

“Hm.” Yoda stirred again with his stick. “Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?” He nodded. “Best of all, Dooku would be!” His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one they looked away. “Our great student!” Yoda’s ears flexed, then drooped. “Our great failure.”

- Yoda

 

Basically, these quotes suggest Dooku is on Mace's level or above him.

 

I can dig up more, but those were some I could pull out right away.

 

This actually makes my head hurt a little. Because this would to me put Mace and him on the same Tier, but that would also mean anakin would have to be above him in that tier, obviously Obi-wan and Fisto would move up as well. The problem is then the comparisons between Vader and Windu... are people just giving Windu to much credit. The RotJ Novel and Shadow's of the Empire Novel always seemed to Suggest that Vader was stronger then he ever was Clone wars or Other wise. Does this mean that overall.... the PT jedi are weak?

 

By the claims of the Emperor we KNOW Anakin is more powerful

 

This quote puts Windu and Dooku on the same level.... the only way I see to rectify this is dropping Windu down to the same tier as Dooku and not moving anyone else, other wise it doesnt line up with RotJ and Shadows of the Empire with Vader.... would that be accurate to you? If so... wow I did not realize how RIGHT I was about how it is difficult to judge a character by their "feats", which means even using Vader as an Establishing character for comparison to the OR is nearly impossible, but assuredly very impractical.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

This actually makes my head hurt a little. Because this would to me put Mace and him on the same Tier, but that would also mean anakin would have to be above him in that tier, obviously Obi-wan and Fisto would move up as well. The problem is then the comparisons between Vader and Windu... are people just giving Windu to much credit. The RotJ Novel and Shadow's of the Empire Novel always seemed to Suggest that Vader was stronger then he ever was Clone wars or Other wise. Does this mean that overall.... the PT jedi are weak?

 

By the claims of the Emperor we KNOW Anakin is more powerful

 

This quote puts Windu and Dooku on the same level.... the only way I see to rectify this is dropping Windu down to the same tier as Dooku and not moving anyone else, other wise it doesnt line up with RotJ and Shadows of the Empire with Vader.... would that be accurate to you? If so... wow I did not realize how RIGHT I was about how it is difficult to judge a character by their "feats"

 

You're getting ahead of yourself here. Just because Dooku is an equal to Mace does not hurt Windu's status at all. He's still in Yoda's league as a duelist, same as Dooku.

 

The issue with Dooku is that he does not often show his power, but what we have seen shows that he can easily perform incredible feats with little effort. Same as Windu.

[tunewalker]

You're getting ahead of yourself here. Just because Dooku is an equal to Mace does not hurt Windu's status at all. He's still in Yoda's league as a duelist, same as Dooku.

 

The issue with Dooku is that he does not often show his power, but what we have seen shows that he can easily perform incredible feats with little effort. Same as Windu.

 

The issue is with Anakin and Vader. Anakin by the Emperor himself was confirmed stronger then Dooku. But Vader by all acounts of RotJ and Shadows of the Empire is stronger then Anakin. Thus Anakin must be above dooku, but can not be above Vader. Moving Dooku to the same level as Vader defeats this purpose. The only way to rectify it without ruining The Vader> Anakin> Dooku when it comes to "power" is not possible if Windu= Dooku and Windu= Vader, the First 2 must be true, the third is speculated, as such the likely movement is Windu.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

The issue is with Anakin and Vader. Anakin by the Emperor himself was confirmed stronger then Dooku. But Vader by all acounts of RotJ and Shadows of the Empire is stronger then Anakin. Thus Anakin must be above dooku, but can not be above Vader. Moving Dooku to the same level as Vader defeats this purpose. The only way to rectify it without ruining The Vader> Anakin> Dooku when it comes to "power" is not possible if Windu= Dooku and Windu= Vader, the First 2 must be true, the third is speculated, as such the likely movement is Windu.

 

I think you're looking at this in too much of a rigid sense. It's not like the gap between any of them is that large.

 

I'll elaborate later if need be, too tired right now.

[tunewalker]

I think you're looking at this in too much of a rigid sense. It's not like the gap between any of them is that large.

 

I'll elaborate later if need be, too tired right now.

I know, neither is the difference in the tiers . Probably no more then a 15% difference from top to bottom, but thank you for letting me know that Windu and Dooku are actually confirmed on the same level. That is very interesting. Edit tells what would change and why.

 

Edit: that being said, maybe the NJO needs some tinkering to... the problem is Kyle's preformance against Caedus and him as far as I am aware being weaker then Saba and Corran..... maybe I dont need to rectify it as much as I think, and both Dooku AND Windu move to C Tier......

 

 

Edit: I also think the issue I may have is hte "far younger and more powerful" does he mean Far more powerful as well, or just more powerful and far younger... its hard to tell.

 

Edit: EH... why am I caring, the Tiers were never definitive any way, it was just a way to illustrate how close in power some of those top masters are to begin with. Even the ToP NJO Masters are close to the top PT and TOP OR masters. They should all be considered strong enough that the outcome is their unique abilities not some arbitrary "list or power" not until you get to people far out of the league but for those like Dooku, Corran, Vitiate, Revan, Meetra, just about any one on the Tiers at all, A-F "power" shouldnt be the focus, as much as style....

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

Dooku has a lot of quotes putting him equal to or above Mace. Same with Anakin, actually.

 

Dooku had those quotes but practice doesn't display them. Dooku fought Windu and quickly used his own droids as a distraction while he fled. Dooku claimed he had matters elsewhere but that's just Dooku's personality. If he can continue to finish/win a fight he will. If he can't he makes excuses and flees. Dooku has enough pride/class that he can remain stoic in the face of defeat. Fact of the matter is.. Dooku ran from Windu.

 

Not to mention Windu had an opportunity to take down Dooku but didn't. That shatterpoint also revealed he would have ended the war had he chosen to do so. In short, he foresaw Dooku's defeat at his hands had he have engaged him. Dooku being Windu's equal was speculation mostly by Yoda and other members of the academy because the two are the order's best duelist. Sometimes things like this can't be decided unless they were to actually fight. When they did.. Windu proved the better.

 

As for Vader? Vader was 80% of Sidious according to Lucas himself. Vader is likely above Windu. It's not that the PT Jedi are weak. Their tiers would mean more than most of TOR's tiers. Yoda was more powerful than any Jedi in the old republic. The PT Jedi were considered the golden age of Jedi. Vader had no equal aside from Palpatine during the rebellion era.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Selenial]

Dooku had those quotes but practice doesn't display them. Dooku fought Windu and quickly used his own droids as a distraction while he fled. Dooku claimed he had matters elsewhere but that's just Dooku's personality. If he can continue to finish/win a fight he will. If he can't he makes excuses and flees. Dooku has enough pride/class that he can remain stoic in the face of defeat. Fact of the matter is.. Dooku ran from Windu.

 

Honestly a terrible example that people cling to.

 

Actually think about it. Dooku had lost the battle and was in danger of being overrun. He could beat Windu, but he also might not. Even Dooku knows that no one will win a duel 10/10 times, I'm sure that Kenobi could even get a lucky strike on him and kill him. Dooku vs Mace being so close means that Dooku only has a slightly higher chance of victory than loss.

 

Weigh it up, and you see why he fled.

 

He wins; Windu dies a few months early. Great.

He loses; He dies, the Seperatist war machine collapses and the Sith fail. He could get captured and interrogated, and if he gives it up, Sidious would torment him until he died of old age, torturing him like Sifo Diyas. He also gives up his chance at unlimited power and ruling the galaxy.

 

That's the reason Dooku never went front line killing like Grevious, he had too much to lose.

[LadyKulvax]

TOR Tier:

 

A tier: Sith Emperor, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus.

 

B tier: Revan.

 

C tier: Meetra Surik, Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Ulic Qel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider, Darth Traya, Darth Malgus.

 

D tier: Darth Malak, Aleema Keto, Darth Sion.

 

Not complete by any measure but these are my suggestions.

[Rhyltran]

Honestly a terrible example that people cling to.

 

Actually think about it. Dooku had lost the battle and was in danger of being overrun. He could beat Windu, but he also might not. Even Dooku knows that no one will win a duel 10/10 times, I'm sure that Kenobi could even get a lucky strike on him and kill him. Dooku vs Mace being so close means that Dooku only has a slightly higher chance of victory than loss.

 

Weigh it up, and you see why he fled.

 

He wins; Windu dies a few months early. Great.

He loses; He dies, the Seperatist war machine collapses and the Sith fail. He could get captured and interrogated, and if he gives it up, Sidious would torment him until he died of old age, torturing him like Sifo Diyas. He also gives up his chance at unlimited power and ruling the galaxy.

 

That's the reason Dooku never went front line killing like Grevious, he had too much to lose.

 

Lucky strike?

 

"In my experience there's no such thing as luck."

 

I think you're giving Dooku too much credit. He didn't fight on the front lines to avoid things like ambushes etc. In the clone wars cartoon series we see that Dooku doesn't mind all that much about getting his hands dirty and he has no issue engaging opponents and seeing the duel to a close (if he can win.) a good example of this is when he tried to fight Yoda after the battle of geonosis. He fought Obi Wan and Anakin and when Yoda showed up he tried to fight him as well, why? He honestly thought he could win. When he was losing, as he usually does when he loses, he fled.

 

This happened with his battle against Windu. In fact, he told Windu he surpassed him and even told him he'd kill him. Windu basically tells him "I don't think so" and presses the attack. Quickly Dooku decides to get out of there. It's the "Dirty Coward" trope. Which Dooku fits to a T. Then there's the shatterpoint book etc. Windu fully believes he can end Dooku if he can get himself in a confrontation with him. He has no question about it and Windu doesn't seem to be the overly confident type to me.

 

Don't forget that Windu was considered Dooku's level back when they knew each other back when they were in the academy. They were both masters of the highest level of Saber skills. Now Dooku has fallen to the dark side and Windu has Vaapad.

[tunewalker]

TOR Tier:

 

A tier: Sith Emperor, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus.

 

B tier: Revan.

 

C tier: Meetra Surik, Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Ulic Qel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider, Darth Traya, Darth Malgus.

 

D tier: Darth Malak, Aleema Keto, Darth Sion.

 

Not complete by any measure but these are my suggestions.

 

Interesting..... Why would you say Malak is under Traya, Malgus and Surik. He was Revan's Number 2... there had to be a reason. And With Exar Kun moving up to the same level as the Emperor, when crossing era's would you do the same with Vader, or are the Tiers close enough that staying in B Tier with Revan would be what would happen?

 

Recall all when I set up the tiers at the start characters up to 2 tiers bellow are still capable of beating those above.

 

It would be interesting to know why its that way for you.

[tunewalker]

Lucky strike?

 

"In my experience there's no such thing as luck."

 

I think you're giving Dooku too much credit. He didn't fight on the front lines to avoid things like ambushes etc. In the clone wars cartoon series we see that Dooku doesn't mind all that much about getting his hands dirty and he has no issue engaging opponents and seeing the duel to a close (if he can win.) a good example of this is when he tried to fight Yoda after the battle of geonosis. He fought Obi Wan and Anakin and when Yoda showed up he tried to fight him as well, why? He honestly thought he could win. When he was losing, as he usually does when he loses, he fled.

 

This happened with his battle against Windu. In fact, he told Windu he surpassed him and even told him he'd kill him. Windu basically tells him "I don't think so" and presses the attack. Quickly Dooku decides to get out of there. It's the "Dirty Coward" trope. Which Dooku fits to a T. Then there's the shatterpoint book etc. Windu fully believes he can end Dooku if he can get himself in a confrontation with him. He has no question about it and Windu doesn't seem to be the overly confident type to me.

 

Don't forget that Windu was considered Dooku's level back when they knew each other back when they were in the academy. They were both masters of the highest level of Saber skills. Now Dooku has fallen to the dark side and Windu has Vaapad.

 

That last part I am not sure doesnt still make them "equals" but does end up giving Windu an edge in combat... HOWEVER... I had earlier C tier Revan, and E tier Meetra, who from what I recall have been called, "equals, or near equals, in several sources and yet I placed them 2 tiers away (marking how close the tiers themselves are) this may be the same case with Dooku and Windu... which means the list doesnt move, at least not in my head, since after all this list is entirely arbitrary and not in any way fully constructed or anything, but its helping me a bit. I am getting to see several peoples points of view.

 

So many incosistencies through books that I can see why its difficult to reconcile them. People just different ways of reconciling them within their own head.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

That last part I am not sure doesnt still make them "equals" but does end up giving Windu an edge in combat... HOWEVER... I had earlier C tier Revan, and E tier Meetra, who from what I recall have been called, "equals, or near equals, in several sources and yet I placed them 2 tiers away (marking how close the tiers themselves are) this may be the same case with Dooku and Windu... which means the list doesnt move, at least not in my head, since after all this list is entirely arbitrary and not in any way fully constructed or anything, but its helping me a bit. I am getting to see several peoples points of view.

 

So many incosistencies through books that I can see why its difficult to reconcile them. People just different ways of reconciling them within their own head.

 

You are correct in that assessment. The last part of what I mentioned might mean that they indeed are equals just the vaapad advantage puts Windu > Dooku but doesn't mean for instance that Windu > Anakin. Still, I would still pick Windu as the more dangerous opponent here. When comparing characters I personally would rate them on how they do against the enemies they'd be facing. Windu/Dooku might be equal as followers of the Light but windu isn't going to be fighting Jedi. He's going to be fighting Sith. I'd argue Windu isn't at his full potential unless it's a sith he's battling in which case Windu is more powerful than Dooku.

 

Essentially I am in arguing in favor of your list. I think Vaapad would put him in an advantage vs Anakin as well considering he did win the Saber duel against Sidious thanks to his vaapad.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rhyltran

[LadyKulvax]

Interesting..... Why would you say Malak is under Traya, Malgus and Surik. He was Revan's Number 2... there had to be a reason. And With Exar Kun moving up to the same level as the Emperor, when crossing era's would you do the same with Vader, or are the Tiers close enough that staying in B Tier with Revan would be what would happen?

 

Recall all when I set up the tiers at the start characters up to 2 tiers bellow are still capable of beating those above.

 

It would be interesting to know why its that way for you.

 

Because Malak was not even on KotOR!Revan's level despite having a Star Forge amp and multiple Jedi to Drain Life off of to sustain him. Not to mention the prior fatigue Revan would have gained from fighting through 'a legion of Elite Sith Troopers, Combat Droids and Sith Lords'.

 

Not to mention Darth Malak wasn't even capable of standing up to Darth Revan let alone Revan Reborn, losing his jaw for his misplaced belief that Revan was being weak.

 

Alek didn't exactly show anything better, getting one shotted by Mandalore.

 

I think Vader and Revan would share a tier with Kun, Sidious, Sith Emperor and Caedus above them. Specters of the Past makes it clear that Kun and Sidious were the two greatest "focal points of the Dark Side" that Luke had faced by then. It's essentially confirmed in 3.0 that Sith Emperor is so far above everyone else of that time that no one else even compares. Caedus is essentially outright stated to be much more powerful than Vader.

[Rhyltran]

Because Malak was not even on KotOR!Revan's level despite having a Star Forge amp and multiple Jedi to Drain Life off of to sustain him. Not to mention the prior fatigue Revan would have gained from fighting through 'a legion of Elite Sith Troopers, Combat Droids and Sith Lords'.

 

Not to mention Darth Malak wasn't even capable of standing up to Darth Revan let alone Revan Reborn, losing his jaw for his misplaced belief that Revan was being weak.

 

Alek didn't exactly show anything better, getting one shotted by Mandalore.

 

I think Vader and Revan would share a tier with Kun, Sidious, Sith Emperor and Caedus above them. Specters of the Past makes it clear that Kun and Sidious were the two greatest "focal points of the Dark Side" that Luke had faced by then. It's essentially confirmed in 3.0 that Sith Emperor is so far above everyone else of that time that no one else even compares. Caedus is essentially outright stated to be much more powerful than Vader.

 

This is correct. As Kulvax mentions the star forge allowed Malak to drain the life of other force users not just to heal himself but he drew power from him. Despite drawing that much power from all those sources, despite using them to heal/sustain himself, despite all of this he was no match for Revan. What about before the star forge? He challenged Revan and lost his jaw and there was no implication that Revan even tried in that bout. Malak was Revan's friend and at the time all Revan had to draw on for apprentice's are those that followed him. He didn't have the greatest number of choices at the time. The real "empire" was elsewhere.

 

Just because Malak was the best Revan had doesn't mean that Malak is close to Revan's level.