Can Jedi enjoy combat ?

[adormitul]

Most Sith are stupid evil but that's because most writers don't understand the subtleties and just imagine them as cartoon villains. The ones who've done it right are Darth Bane and to a lesser extent Darth Malgus in Deceived. They follow the code and they're interesting. Malgus of course grabs the Idiot Ball at Ilum but that's another discussion.

What about Darth Marr? Is he done right?

[Leaveshill]

What about Darth Marr? Is he done right?

 

Stupidly evil? Or stupid and evil? Because (Palpatine, example) isn't "stupid", after all he outwits the entire Republic almost single-handely. But he is stupidely evil indeed, especially in the final-scene where he goes berserk and gets kill in a way most people above 20 should be able to avoid (not starting to kill someone's son when he's behind you!!!)

But yes, MOST Sith are too blunt. As are most Jedi. It's too White/black, even though SWTOR does this much better than the films.

And some Sith are pretty "good". I actually enjoy some, like Thanaton. He's actually not that bad, he's just an arch-tradionalist. He's not evil by any means, but of course too conservative thoughts will cloud your mind. And as mentioned, Marr is well-made. And some "minor" sith like Rathari (S.W storyline) is well made. As are Paladius (S.I storyline), and Zash (S.I storyline); especially Zash, which isn't really evil at all. She does what she does to stay alive, which is legit.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Leaveshill

[DARTHOSIRUS]

Stupidly evil? Or stupid and evil? Because (Palpatine, example) isn't "stupid", after all he outwits the entire Republic almost single-handely. But he is stupidely evil indeed, especially in the final-scene where he goes berserk and gets kill in a way most people above 20 should be able to avoid (not starting to kill someone's son when he's behind you!!!)

But yes, MOST Sith are too blunt. As are most Jedi. It's too White/black, even though SWTOR does this much better than the films.

And some Sith are pretty "good". I actually enjoy some, like Thanaton. He's actually not that bad, he's just an arch-tradionalist. He's not evil by any means, but of course too conservative thoughts will cloud your mind. And as mentioned, Marr is well-made. And some "minor" sith like Rathari (S.W storyline) is well made. As are Paladius (S.I storyline), and Zash (S.I storyline); especially Zash, which isn't really evil at all. She does what she does to stay alive, which is legit.

Thanaton not evil? After what he did to the inquisitor for simply being associated with Lord Zash? I would say Thanaton is about as rotten as they come, not to mention a total hypocrite who used his so called belief of tradition to justify his actions. Thanaton gives the Spanish Inquisition a run for its money.

[adormitul]

Thanaton not evil? After what he did to the inquisitor for simply being associated with Lord Zash? I would say Thanaton is about as rotten as they come, not to mention a total hypocrite who used his so called belief of tradition to justify his actions. Thanaton gives the Spanish Inquisition a run for its money.

To be fair his power comes from fear if he overcomed his fear would be weaker so the fact that he chose to be frightened by the Inquisitor means chose not to become weaker.

[jovianus]

I never understood the whole pacifism element to the Jedi in the Old Republic, especially the ridiculousness in KotOR with the Mandalorians burning down the Republic while the Jedi dither around and meditate about whether they should get involved. I don't recall a lot of handwringing about it in the movies when the Jedi took command of the Army of the Republic.

 

The Jedi seem to be their own worst enemy when it comes to their members falling to the Dark Side, since rather than emphasizing healthy coping mechanisms and restraint, they harp on and on about total suppression of basic human (or alien) emotion. And then essentially force anyone who is having problems to bottle them up and hide them because they don't tolerate any deviation.

 

I mean, we find out that Revan and Co. didn't fall to the Dark Side because 'omg fighting for any reason makes you a complete monster!', he just had the bad luck to stumble onto the the Sith Emperor and got mind dominated

 

Thanaton not evil? After what he did to the inquisitor for simply being associated with Lord Zash? I would say Thanaton is about as rotten as they come, not to mention a total hypocrite who used his so called belief of tradition to justify his actions. Thanaton gives the Spanish Inquisition a run for its money.

 

I really think Zash should have been a member of the Dark Council from the start, in some kind of power play with Thanaton, or it should have been made explicitly clear that she was planning to kill him and take his spot or something. As it is, his entire vendetta against the Inquisitor basically boils down to 'Grrr, kids these days!' taken to psychotic levels. Which would be fine if he were just like the boss of a planet class quest line having it out for the uppity slave, but as the overarching enemy he comes across less like 'archnemesis' and more like 'holy ****, that crazy old man from next door is chasing me around with a shotgun.'

Edited January 2, 2015 by jovianus

[BenKatarn]

Jedi filth cannot enjoy anything. There is no passion, there is peace they say...

 

This is not entirely true trough. The first tenet of the Jedi Code is more about not letting your emotions interfere with your judgement. If a Jedi was not allowed to feel ANYTHING, they would just be emotionless zombies. If the Jedi did not act because of compassion, would they still be Jedi?

 

If there was truely no emotion for a Jedi, would they form bonds with one another, become friends with each other, care about others? They are not nihilistic. They have things and people that matter to them, but the point of the first tenet is that all of this must not be allowed to cloud the Jedi's judgement and have them lose sight of the bigger picture. A Jedi can enjoy combat, but the point is that they should keep their emotions in check and not lose themselves entirely in their passions, because that will eventually lead to the Dark Side, and as we all know, for a Sith there "is only passion".

Edited January 2, 2015 by BenKatarn

[RodneyMcNeely]

Jedi aren't pacifists. They spend a huge majority of their time TRAINING FOR COMBAT. I don't see one being good at what they do if they don't enjoy what they do.

 

Not to get too "real-worldy" but I've been doing amateur MMA for a while (by "amateur" I mean I know full well at 40 that I'm never going to be anything more than a dabbler). And my hubby and I are seriously looking into some Krav Maga instruction for the fun of it.

 

While I absolutely enjoy the rush of sparring (whether I'm winning or losing), I'm not a violent person. The hardest thing for me to learn to do was commit to hitting another person, even in a training situation. My fear went out the window as my control improved, and I think this is one of the tenets involved in Jedi lore.

 

By seeking greater control and perfection in all things (including battle) the Jedi exorcises the fear and negativity that leads to truly dark actions. The more I've trained, the more I've found serenity in the middle of the chaos of a sparring match, to the point that my instincts and intellect come together in truly amazing ways. One of the first things I learned was to control my breathing so I wouldn't tire as quickly. Interestingly enough, once you learn to get your respiration under control without thinking about it, your panic goes out the window. And your judgment in the middle of what's going on gets immensely clearer.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I can see a follower of the Light completely surrendering to the rush of combat without becoming a violent creature given over to base impulse. There's a HUGE difference between a psychopath/sociopath reveling in the feel of the kill and a truly empathic warrior dropping an enemy because the well-being of everyone else depends on it.

 

Edited January 2, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely

[Leaveshill]

Thanaton not evil? After what he did to the inquisitor for simply being associated with Lord Zash? I would say Thanaton is about as rotten as they come, not to mention a total hypocrite who used his so called belief of tradition to justify his actions. Thanaton gives the Spanish Inquisition a run for its money.

 

Well, Thanaton isn't evil. He looks at you(Inq) and sees;

a young former slave(which he also was, and he's ashamed and therefore want to destroy you as you are a "memory of his shame"

Also;

He hated Zash, as she broke the law (Skotia), and now he sees the Inq, that boldly murders his own Master after a few months(maybe a year, maaaybe). Which is unacceptable, not just that a slave is rising to power so quickly, but this slave is murdering and causing mayhem, even within his own order.

Also; keep in mind that the Inq ignores Sith tradition (you can't agree when Thanaton claims that loyalty for your superiors is "the key". The war with Thanaton couldve been avoided. Just ask for a chance to serve "the glorious Thanaton", then say that he can give your lordship to one of his own. He'd be flattered that the Inq is so humble and wanting to serve, that he'd likely accept him instead. Probably.

Also;

He wanted to murder Zash after Skotia, but he was stopped by the Council. Now, on the other hand, nobody is in the way to stop him and he intends to destroy you.

Thanaton also does believe blindliny in tradition, that's why he gives up the Silencer (super-weapon), because he thinks that the Force is the only weapon needed. He's not evil, he's just too fed up with tradition.

I actually enjoyed Thanaton. Serving him would've been a great pleasure.

 

Wipe out the infidels!

[Rhyltran]

Well, Thanaton isn't evil. He looks at you(Inq) and sees;

a young former slave(which he also was, and he's ashamed and therefore want to destroy you as you are a "memory of his shame"

Also;

He hated Zash, as she broke the law (Skotia), and now he sees the Inq, that boldly murders his own Master after a few months(maybe a year, maaaybe). Which is unacceptable, not just that a slave is rising to power so quickly, but this slave is murdering and causing mayhem, even within his own order.

Also; keep in mind that the Inq ignores Sith tradition (you can't agree when Thanaton claims that loyalty for your superiors is "the key". The war with Thanaton couldve been avoided. Just ask for a chance to serve "the glorious Thanaton", then say that he can give your lordship to one of his own. He'd be flattered that the Inq is so humble and wanting to serve, that he'd likely accept him instead. Probably.

Also;

He wanted to murder Zash after Skotia, but he was stopped by the Council. Now, on the other hand, nobody is in the way to stop him and he intends to destroy you.

Thanaton also does believe blindliny in tradition, that's why he gives up the Silencer (super-weapon), because he thinks that the Force is the only weapon needed. He's not evil, he's just too fed up with tradition.

I actually enjoyed Thanaton. Serving him would've been a great pleasure.

 

Wipe out the infidels!

 

You claim he hated Zash because she broke the laws and didn't follow tradition. Then you acknowledge later in your post he intended to do the same by murdering you. This does make him out to be evil or at the very least psychopathic. He's being hypocritical at this point, not thinking rationally, and breaking his own form of honor/logic which isn't that surprisingly considering that he runs from his own Kaggath. The last part I bolded sums up his personality which only further serves to paint him as a psychopath. Thanaton is not a good guy nor is he some perfect example of a morally grey entity. He's insane. Using "tradition" as his manipulative tool to do as he pleases. Not much different from most Sith to be honest.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Altheran]

Jedi definitely feel emotions. They just put them under control instead of ltting them drive them to actions.

 

As such they can enjoy combat. They will probably discipline themselves to not enjoy "real combat" and not slaugther ennemies, but combat as a sport is probably okay for them and I'd bet some of them are really enjoying themselves when training/sparring with others Jedi.

 

It's almost the the same difference that when someone isn't picking fights for the sake of fighting but is enjoying dueling in fencing, boxing, or even things like tennis.

 

---

 

Now, off-topic about Thanaton :

 

 

For me, all Thanaton puts behind "traditions" is only a facade.

 

Remember the comic about Thanaton released before launch ? Remember what Zash attempted to do to you ?

Don't you see any ressemblance ?

 

The reason why he want to kill Zash and you so badly is because both of you know a secret he doesn't want other people to know, the very secret that allowed him to enter the Dark Council... ...despite traditions dictating he should die.

 

You and Zash are life threateners to him. If it reached the ears of any of the Dark Council that you know "this" secret, or if any of you revealed it... ...the Dark Council would dispose of him right away, especially considering that he's weak for a dark councellor (or rather was before his position granted him access to great powers), and that they depised him all time long.

 

Edited January 3, 2015 by Altheran

[Leaveshill]

You claim he hated Zash because she broke the laws and didn't follow tradition. Then you acknowledge later in your post he intended to do the same by murdering you. This does make him out to be evil or at the very least psychopathic. He's being hypocritical at this point, not thinking rationally, and breaking his own form of honor/logic which isn't that surprisingly considering that he runs from his own Kaggath. The last part I bolded sums up his personality which only further serves to paint him as a psychopath. Thanaton is not a good guy nor is he some perfect example of a morally grey entity. He's insane. Using "tradition" as his manipulative tool to do as he pleases. Not much different from most Sith to be honest.

 

But Nox broke the law by murdering his master. Hence he wanted to kill him as I murdered my master "for power". Had he proved that he acted in self-defence and also showed how she's now possessing Khem, then he might not have made all this problems. He's actually not using tradition to manipulate, he even cancelled the program (silencer) for his traditonal views that the Force beats anything.

And yes, he does run from his own Kaggath. But who wouldn't run if beaten? That's not honorable, but I'm not claiming that he's the honor-sith of the year either. Just that I don't find him too evil. From his point of view, Nox is a murdering, reckless, lowborn sith that does nothing but create chaos.

But yes, he's sort of insane. He's at least very fanatic

[Leaveshill]

Jedi definitely feel emotions. They just put them under control instead of ltting them drive them to actions.

 

As such they can enjoy combat. They will probably discipline themselves to not enjoy "real combat" and not slaugther ennemies, but combat as a sport is probably okay for them and I'd bet some of them are really enjoying themselves when training/sparring with others Jedi.

 

It's almost the the same difference that when someone isn't picking fights for the sake of fighting but is enjoying dueling in fencing, boxing, or even things like tennis.

 

---

 

Now, off-topic about Thanaton :

 

 

For me, all Thanaton puts behind "traditions" is only a facade.

 

Remember the comic about Thanaton released before launch ? Remember what Zash attempted to do to you ?

Don't you see any ressemblance ?

 

The reason why he want to kill Zash and you so badly is because both of you know a secret he doesn't want other people to know, the very secret that allowed him to enter the Dark Council... ...despite traditions dictating he should die.

 

You and Zash are life threateners to him. If it reached the ears of any of the Dark Council that you know "this" secret, or if any of you revealed it... ...the Dark Council would dispose of him right away, especially considering that he's weak for a dark councellor (or rather was before his position granted him access to great powers), and that they depised him all time long.

 

And again; Thanaton stopped the Silencer project because of his Sith belief. He's very much a tradionalist.

And we don't know about how he got into the Dark Council. We assume that he murdered his master, but we don't know this.

He got the Title of Darth as a young man due to knowing one of the Emperor's secrets, yes. But we don't know this. We don't know anyhing about Thanaton, really. Nobody knows about this except the Council members themselves, as they need to keep it hidden that they actually know. Zash has no clue what-so-ever about what's going on between Thanaton and the Dark Council.

Also, Thanaton isn't as weak as people think.He does study a lot of Force rituals, and he was a great leader after he got "shamed" because of his master being a heretic. Leading lots of battles to victories, but he was despised because of his Master.

 

Also, Zash tries to kill you for her own life. Which is acceptable, I don't hate her for it. But she gets a stay in the Rakata-mind prison for it. Hue hue.

 

Thanaton wants to kill you for being "what's wrong" with the empire; powerful figures that cares nothing about anythin but themselves. Murdering their masters and discarding rules all over the place. It's OK. Especially since you're supposed to be like "You're supposed to respect your master. Until you can kill them, right, my lord?!"