Are Tanks Obsolete Outside of Operations?

[robertthebard]

Ok, so this discussion has really been going in circles for me here, so here's my thoughts on the topic title:

 

No, they're not. Tactical FPs can be run w/out them, or healers for that matter, but I don't think anyone's really ready to kick heals to the curb at this juncture. In the early parts of the game, tanks aren't all that tanky anyway; don't get a taunt until mid 20s IIRC, so for that part of the game, it's really moot, the content is easily run w/out a dedicated tank since the reality is, there isn't much of a dedicated tank in that range. I'm sure we'll have a 3 DPS/Healer party talking about their cake walk in Mando Raiders, but seriously, that FP is easier with a tank when you have 4 bosses to contend with, let alone the guy with the dogs. So no, they fill a role that can, sometimes be filled by someone else, but there's always a case to be made that the same content would be easier with a tank.

Edited May 27, 2014 by robertthebard

[Warlocc]

Apparently tanks are simply obsolete in general. Queued for a non-Kuat flashpoint. Been 4 hours now.

[SW_display_name]

Apparently tanks are simply obsolete in general. Queued for a non-Kuat flashpoint. Been 4 hours now.

As DPS or Tank?

[Warlocc]

As DPS or Tank?

 

As a tank. I finally got one after I switched to DPS/Tank. I was put in as DPS.

[Halinalle]

I'm not saying "Don't queue", I'm saying "If queuing makes you so unhappy, why do you do it?"

 

If it doesn't actually make you unhappy, then why stress about it?

 

Why I don't like to queue/PUG with my tanks? Because in most groups people expect you, as a tank, to know everything about the FP/Heroic. Why I like to queue? Because it can be fun. For example the group I run almost all FPs when I leveled my main from 1 to 50. I knew two of the group members/guildmates from RL. We wiped as a group, we learned as a group, we succeeded as a group. Do you see the point? Why I don't play with them anymore, you ask. It's simple, they don't play anymore.

 

Problem with current players is that as tank if you do even one mistake (lose aggro on one standard mob) especially DPS will start to mock you and tell you how they could do it better. And if you haven't done the FP for very long time and you just want to check your surroundings before choosing optimal route for group, DPS usually starts pulling if it takes more than 2 seconds for you to pull.

Unfortunately the same applies to healers and their small mistakes too.

 

Well, then ,how about... making it everyone's problem ? I mean it already is, to an extent, because we have aggro dumps, but the way they work is incredibly obscure.

 

It's simple:

- Tank notices aggro change and taunts boss

- DPS notices that tank taunted -> use your threat drop now

 

Good luck ever gaining higher threat than tank during that fight.

 

Another idea: you could make guard super-overpowered in PvE too. Make the recipient transfer part or all of the threat they generate towards the tank. Bam! guard the healer = hold aggro on all the things without actually hitting them.

 

It's not really that difficult to kill stuff in correct order. Tank can handle those strongs/elites/champions just fine. You can as DPS easily kill standard (and even strong mobs after all standard mobs are dead). For example, Carnage Marauder: Gore -> Ravage = almost dead strong, standards die even before you can finish your Ravage.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Halinalle

[SW_display_name]

As a tank. I finally got one after I switched to DPS/Tank. I was put in as DPS.

Awesome.

[slafko]

Problem with current players is that as tank if you do even one mistake (lose aggro on one standard mob) especially DPS will start to mock you and tell you how they could do it better. And if you haven't done the FP for very long time and you just want to check your surroundings before choosing optimal route for group, DPS usually starts pulling if it takes more than 2 seconds for you to pull.

Unfortunately the same applies to healers and their small mistakes too.

 

Are you saying Progenitor tanks have not beaten the deeps and healers into submission over these two years?

 

You guys need to put your foot down and show them what's what. Majority of TRE deeps and healers know who the boss is and act accordingly. Most problems are caused by KDY Academy graduates, but that is to be expected.

Edited May 27, 2014 by slafko

[Halinalle]

Are you saying Progenitor tanks have not beaten the deeps and healers into submission over these two years?

 

Maybe we just don't want to get votekicked/ignored.

[slafko]

Surely, getting vote kicked and ignored by a group of baddies is not the end of world. Right?

[Kaarruu]

I play on The Progenitor also, and my experiences with the group finder seem to differ quite a bit from Halinalle's. I've never once had a truly awful group and ran into a really obnoxious person only once or twice.

 

Most groups are quiet, both in HM 55s and leveling FPs. Sometimes there's a clueless player but the rest have always been able to pick up the slack in those cases. A vote kick usually takes place when someone is deemed terminally AFK. A notable exception was a few days ago in my very first Red Reaper. Assassin tank, AP PT (me), Sorc healer and lightning Sorc. The deeps Sorc was rushy, started a pull before everyone had loaded in and it ended in a wipe. I noticed his ninjaesque tendencies when he Needed on Aim gear, saying he needed it for companions (funny, since none of the Inquisitor comps use Aim).

 

The tank decided to nip it in the bud and initiated a vote kick. Deeps Sorc pleaded to the group, promised to change his evil ways and offered to turn over his ill-gotten gains. We continued with the Sorc giving the Sin tank helpful instructions such as "attack them" and "go" along the way. The droid boss wiped us once with the Colorful Beam of Death (nobody mentioned the mechanics and I wasn't about to leave that droid unpunched). Sorc Zappy again commanded the tank to engage while Sorc Healy was en route from the rez point. Second try, droid got sufficiently punched and whaddyaknow, Zappy Needs on everything, including an Aim blaster.

 

The long-suffering Assassin again initiated a vote kick. Seeing how Zappy neither learns nor keeps his word, I decided it was best to part ways. We bid fond farewells as Zappy faded from view, questioning the group's sexual orientation as he went, now on the ignore list of not one but two FP tanks. The fun part? I won the roll for the blaster and will forever use it as my tanking mainhand.

 

More on topic, no, I wouldn't say tanks are obsolete. Tactical FPs are good to have around as an option, especially once the rewards become more worthwhile (2.8, I think), but the trinity still has its place. Heroics are easy enough for just about any kind of group to work if the players know what they're doing (I tend to avoid groups that scream for a specific role for planetary heroics).

 

Non-tactical flashpoints seem to mostly get wait-y for lack of tank. I actually got two nearly instant pops as a Sniper last night. I kid you not - didn't have time to move from the CZ-198 med droid to the corridor door. Yep, same tank queueing to get weekly done. I usually queue my Juggernaut as both damage dealer and tank, almost always get sent in as a tank and very quickly at that... and never once been kicked or flamed.