Bioware: Most of your players are pvp'ers.... figure it out!

[JediMasterSLC]

It is irrelevant. You are speaking from a time that is no longer relevant to the game. Maybe it's time you got out of the past, since you like to bring it up in every thread instead of moving on.

 

A time that is no longer relevant to the game? What does that even mean? Is the state of the game fundamentally different now than a year or so ago, when they were gonna make CC breaker reset on death, the competitive community spoke out on the forums about it, and they reverted the change?

[Reno_Tarshil]

A time that is no longer relevant to the game? What does that even mean? Is the state of the game fundamentally different now than a year or so ago, when they were gonna make CC breaker reset on death, the competitive community spoke out on the forums about it, and they reverted the change?

 

The game is indeed different from how it was a year ago. If you would get out of the past, you would realize this.

[JediMasterSLC]

The game is indeed different from how it was a year ago. If you would get out of the past, you would realize this.

 

Different with respect to the ability of feedback from the forums to effect dev decisions? Yeah no.

[robertthebard]

The game is indeed different from how it was a year ago. If you would get out of the past, you would realize this.

 

The problem is, if this is done, some of these arguments fall flat, and we can't have that, can we? Hell, he's even gone so far as to defend some of the changes, exhibiting the same behavior he condemns in everyone else. This must in fact mean that he believes the game is better for these changes than it was, meaning that it is fundamentally different, from his perspective, than it was a year ago, since these changes that he defends aren't a year old.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Different with respect to the ability of feedback from the forums to effect dev decisions? Yeah no.

 

It's not 1945 anymore, please try to get with the times.

[JediMasterSLC]

The problem is, if this is done, some of these arguments fall flat, and we can't have that, can we? Hell, he's even gone so far as to defend some of the changes, exhibiting the same behavior he condemns in everyone else. This must in fact mean that he believes the game is better for these changes than it was, meaning that it is fundamentally different, from his perspective, than it was a year ago, since these changes that he defends aren't a year old.

 

You still don't get it? There is nothing wrong with defending individual balance decisions! The problem is when you defend the overall mediocrity of the game.

[JediMasterSLC]

It's not 1945 anymore, please try to get with the times.

 

... you lost me bud.

[Reno_Tarshil]

You still don't get it? There is nothing wrong with defending individual balance decisions! The problem is when you defend the overall mediocrity of the game.

 

The game isn't Mediocre. The game is fun and enjoyable and I have no issue defending it.

 

... you lost me bud.

 

Good.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Reno_Tarshil

[Sangrar]

You still don't get it? There is nothing wrong with defending individual balance decisions! The problem is when you defend the overall mediocrity of the game.

 

there lies the problem, some people might think something is good while others is bad, and their opinions are not necessarily right or wrong as there is no real true uniform way to measure that without some form of bias. However despite this you are treating peoples opinions as if they are wrong because you think some things are mediocre while others do not see it. While your opinion should be considered and respected, the same applies to others as well.

[robertthebard]

You still don't get it? There is nothing wrong with defending individual balance decisions! The problem is when you defend the overall mediocrity of the game.

 

Wait, so now you're being an apologist about them too?

 

You see, speaking out against changes that you don't like isn't defending or being an apologist. You think they're good for the game, and for PvP, they probably were. So, to my eyes, when you go all Rambo about defending them, you are exhibiting the same behavior you accuse me of when I say that PvP doesn't need to have increased credit gains w/out any kind of overhead to go along with it. If I'm an apologist and a defender for doing the exact same thing you're doing with the changes that benefit you in PvP, how is it that you're not? You are defending game design, so I'd say the shoe fits, right?

 

Me liking the game in the state it was in when, after I declined an invite to the beta because I'm not a huge SWs fan, I decided to give it a look doesn't make me either an apologist or a defender, it just means that I like the game. I can understand why PvP doesn't make more money for dailies, considering the total lack of risk involved, credit wise, with PvP. I am, in your own words, defending an individual design decision, because I can see why it was made. It was made, btw to prevent scenarios just like this: http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt201/robertthebard/th_Borkedeconomy.jpg

 

I realize that if we suddenly stopped getting new players, it would totally support your position, making everything you say valid, but since you exhibit such hypocrisy, it's hard to take you seriously. On one hand, you accuse me of being an apologist and defender for speaking out against arbitrary increase in income in PvP w/out any sinks in place, and yet, defending nerfing classes specifically for PvP is an acceptable behavior. To me, if one is being a defender and an apologist, both are, since they are the same thing.

[robertthebard]

Oh this is just plain ridiculous. Reading through your past responses you seem to be an intelligent and sharp individual; this is just borderline flame bait.

 

I have a very hard time believing you take yourself here with this post seriously.

 

You do use the term a lot, I don't think it means what you think it does. But you do have one point, I don't take any of this, forum discussions, very seriously. Firstly, a lot of these discussions wouldn't last nearly this long if we were all sitting around a big conference table. Anonymity makes people believe they can push the envelope in ways they'd never imagine doing in a public forum. Secondly, this is a game, it is, by definition, not to be taken too seriously, it's for entertainment. However, over the last decade and a half, I have noticed that some people take them a lot more seriously than they should/is healthy. For example, in this thread, PvP is serious business, while the rest of the game is what, window dressing?

 

You see, I don't go to bed at night thinking of ways to "shout down the apologists/defenders". I don't spend several hours going through live streams of PvP matches to find the best possible example to post to demonstrate my superiority, and I surely don't wake up anticipating all the PvEers I'm going to have to try to shut down by either directly calling them trolls/defenders/apologists, or simply implying that they are baiting me because they disagree. My first thought in the morning is that I'd better feed my cat, so that when I sit down to game, I don't have to stop to feed her. Immediately followed by "Why did I forget to program the damn coffee pot", and "What's for dinner tonight", since I have to prepare my own meals.

[JediMasterSLC]

This game is objectively mediocre, with respect to the vast amount of money originally invested, and the gaming community as a whole's expectations of it (that it was going to be somewhat of a WoW killer). It is obviously not a game's obligation to completely live up to its hype, but SWTOR was on another level of letdown. Talk about SWTOR in forums and games outside of this one, and you'll get laughed at. This game has a TERRIBLE reputation in the gaming community compared to other games.

 

This game didn't just do poorly compared to the gaming community's expectations- but also EA's expectations. This can be demonstrated in several ways:

 

Large cutbacks to EA's staff following a large exodus of subscribers.

 

Promises of future content that were never realized (cross server Qs, "hundreds of planets", etc.).

 

The transition to F2P (you can talk all you want about how that was a good move for them- the point is that the only reason that this transition brought them more revenue than they would've received otherwise is because the number of subscribers dropped below a certain point. If the number of subs had remained the same or increased as one would reasonably hope, a transition to F2P would've been neither necessary nor profitable).

 

Your public denial of the objective mediocrity of this game is poisonous to its growth. When developers see in the forums that people are satisfied with the game, they became complacent. You need to learn the concept of bargaining. When you're looking at a potential purchase at a venue in which haggling is acceptable, and someone offers you a ... meh... decent price for it, you do not reply with "alright sure, sounds good!", even if you would be willing to part with that amount of money for it. Instead, you act dissatisfied with said price, and negotiate for a lower one. In the same way, it is unwise to express your complete satisfaction with the game on the forums, even if it is completely true. If they know that they don't have to increase their development efforts in order to retain subs, they will not do so. Assuming you would like for them to put more effort into the continued development of this game, I suggest you take my advice and ask for more out of them. This has nothing to do with PvE or PvP.

[codycroft]

lol the 'gaming community'. As if there was a monolithic bunch of basement dwelling nerds somewhere that voted lock step with each other on these matters. Makes me laugh.

[Reno_Tarshil]

This game is objectively mediocre, with respect to the vast amount of money originally invested, and the gaming community as a whole's expectations of it (that it was going to be somewhat of a WoW killer). It is obviously not a game's obligation to completely live up to its hype, but SWTOR was on another level of letdown. Talk about SWTOR in forums and games outside of this one, and you'll get laughed at. This game has a TERRIBLE reputation in the gaming community compared to other games.

 

This game didn't just do poorly compared to the gaming community's expectations- but also EA's expectations. This can be demonstrated in several ways:

 

Large cutbacks to EA's staff following a large exodus of subscribers.

 

Promises of future content that were never realized (cross server Qs, "hundreds of planets", etc.).

 

The transition to F2P (you can talk all you want about how that was a good move for them- the point is that the only reason that this transition brought them more revenue than they would've received otherwise is because the number of subscribers dropped below a certain point. If the number of subs had remained the same or increased as one would reasonably hope, a transition to F2P would've been neither necessary nor profitable).

 

Your public denial of the objective mediocrity of this game is poisonous to its growth. When developers see in the forums that people are satisfied with the game, they became complacent. You need to learn the concept of bargaining. When you're looking at a potential purchase at a venue in which haggling is acceptable, and someone offers you a ... meh... decent price for it, you do not reply with "alright sure, sounds good!", even if you would be willing to part with that amount of money for it. Instead, you act dissatisfied with said price, and negotiate for a lower one. In the same way, it is unwise to express your complete satisfaction with the game on the forums, even if it is completely true. If they know that they don't have to increase their development efforts in order to retain subs, they will not do so. Assuming you would like for them to put more effort into the continued development of this game, I suggest you take my advice and ask for more out of them. This has nothing to do with PvE or PvP.

 

When developers see a bunch of whiny entitled forum goers who bash their every word they become even less likely to care about you. This game is great and not mediocre and has had a vast improvement to it since launch.

[robertthebard]

This game is objectively mediocre, with respect to the vast amount of money originally invested, and the gaming community as a whole's expectations of it (that it was going to be somewhat of a WoW killer). It is obviously not a game's obligation to completely live up to its hype, but SWTOR was on another level of letdown. Talk about SWTOR in forums and games outside of this one, and you'll get laughed at. This game has a TERRIBLE reputation in the gaming community compared to other games.

 

This game didn't just do poorly compared to the gaming community's expectations- but also EA's expectations. This can be demonstrated in several ways:

 

Large cutbacks to EA's staff following a large exodus of subscribers.

 

Promises of future content that were never realized (cross server Qs, "hundreds of planets", etc.).

 

The transition to F2P (you can talk all you want about how that was a good move for them- the point is that the only reason that this transition brought them more revenue than they would've received otherwise is because the number of subscribers dropped below a certain point. If the number of subs had remained the same or increased as one would reasonably hope, a transition to F2P would've been neither necessary nor profitable).

 

Your public denial of the objective mediocrity of this game is poisonous to its growth. When developers see in the forums that people are satisfied with the game, they became complacent. You need to learn the concept of bargaining. When you're looking at a potential purchase at a venue in which haggling is acceptable, and someone offers you a ... meh... decent price for it, you do not reply with "alright sure, sounds good!", even if you would be willing to part with that amount of money for it. Instead, you act dissatisfied with said price, and negotiate for a lower one. In the same way, it is unwise to express your complete satisfaction with the game on the forums, even if it is completely true. If they know that they don't have to increase their development efforts in order to retain subs, they will not do so. Assuming you would like for them to put more effort into the continued development of this game, I suggest you take my advice and ask for more out of them. This has nothing to do with PvE or PvP.

 

That's a hell of a lot of text for you to try to tell me what I can and cannot find fun. I find this game to be fun, what your "gaming community" has to say matters a damn to me, so long as I'm having fun, I'll be around. When that ceases to be the case, I won't move to forum PvP trying to tell people they can't have fun playing, I'll just move on.

[JediMasterSLC]

When developers see a bunch of whiny entitled forum goers who bash their every word they become even less likely to care about you.

 

You don't understand- for the most part, the devs themselves are not blamed (at least, not by myself and other educated members of community). We know that they can only work with the time and resources allocated to them; the biggest problem is that they are allocated insufficient time and resources from the higher-ups. The mediocrity of the game can, in part, be attributed to bad development decisions- like the decision to purchase an unfinished game engine and attempt to complete it themselve). But for the most part, it is due to EA's decisions- i.e. pushing the game to be released too early, firing a large fraction of employees in response to people unsubbing due to lack of content (instead of hiring more people to pump out more content faster and attract those subs back), and again, just continuing to not provide the remaining devs with enough resources to make this game GOOD (even though the game is making them hundreds of millions of dollars a year).

 

There's another thing- it doesn't matter if BW thinks we are whiny. It only matters if they do what we want: pump out more, better content, faster. Informing them that we expect more, and are prepared to protest with our wallets if we do not get more, is a much more effective way of effecting this result than letting them know that we're all perfectly happy the way things are. It's not greedy, its ambitious.

 

This game is great and not mediocre and has had a vast improvement to it since launch.

 

Damn, that assertion just makes all my arguments go away. BW plz nerf this guy he's too gud.

Edited May 20, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[JediMasterSLC]

That's a hell of a lot of text for you to try to tell me what I can and cannot find fun. I find this game to be fun, what your "gaming community" has to say matters a damn to me, so long as I'm having fun, I'll be around. When that ceases to be the case, I won't move to forum PvP trying to tell people they can't have fun playing, I'll just move on.

 

If you like the game so much, why are you constantly in the forums, instead of playing it? I wouldn't have any problem with you if you just did that. I guess the nuances of my posts continue to go over your head.

[Reno_Tarshil]

You don't understand- for the most part, the devs themselves are not blamed (at least, not by myself and other educated members of community). We know that they can only work with the time and resources allocated to them; the biggest problem is that they are allocated insufficient time and resources from the higher-ups. The mediocrity of the game can, in part, be attributed to bad development decisions- like the decision to purchase an unfinished game engine and attempt to complete it themselve). But for the most part, it is due to EA's decisions- i.e. pushing the game to be released too early, firing a large fraction of employees in response to people unsubbing due to lack of content (instead of hiring more people to pump out more content faster and attract those subs back), and again, just continuing to not provide the remaining devs with enough resources to make this game GOOD (even though the game is making them hundreds of millions of dollars a year).

 

There's another thing- it doesn't matter if BW thinks we are whiny. It only matters if they do what we want: pump out more, better content, faster. Informing them that we expect more, and are prepared to protest with our wallets if we do not get more, is a much more effective way of effecting this result than letting them know that we're all perfectly happy the way things are. It's not greedy, its ambitious.

 

 

 

Damn, that assertion just makes all my arguments go away. BW plz nerf this guy he's too gud.

 

You tell them you're going to protest all you want but you can't honestly expect them to take unsub threats seriously? Want to send a message just take your money and leave, if enough people do it, they will get your message, whether they care or not is another story.

 

Also you cannot honestly expect people to not praise the things they enjoy. It's not healthy at all to just have negative issues with a game without allowing the positives to shine thru. I don't know what you're honestly trying to accomplish by trying to hide all the good things people have to say about this game.

 

Lastly, that's just my opinion on the game. I am entitled to share it with the forums as I see fit. You may not like it but you're just going to have to deal with it.

 

If you like the game so much, why are you constantly in the forums, instead of playing it? I wouldn't have any problem with you if you just did that. I guess the nuances of my posts continue to go over your head.

 

Wow another person who hasn't heard of Multi-tasking...

Edited May 20, 2014 by Reno_Tarshil

[JediMasterSLC]

You tell them you're going to protest all you want but you can't honestly expect them to take unsub threats seriously? Want to send a message just take your money and leave, if enough people do it, they will get your message, whether they care or not is another story.

 

Also you cannot honestly expect people to not praise the things they enjoy. It's not healthy at all to just have negative issues with a game without allowing the positives to shine thru. I don't know what you're honestly trying to accomplish by trying to hide all the good things people have to say about this game.

 

Lastly, that's just my opinion on the game. I am entitled to share it with the forums as I see fit. You may not like it but you're just going to have to deal with it.

 

You're making it sound like I said that you can never provide positive feedback (even I do that sometimes)....... Honestly, if you continue to fail to understand the nuances of my arguments (or just choosing to ignore them, I can't tell), I'm just not going to bother anymore. I'm sure you'd be devastated by that :/

 

Wow another person who hasn't heard of Multi-tasking...

 

I guess you took the point a little too literally.

[Reno_Tarshil]

You're making it sound like I said that you can never provide positive feedback (even I do that sometimes)....... Honestly, if you continue to fail to understand the nuances of my arguments (or just choosing to ignore them, I can't tell), I'm just not going to bother anymore. I'm sure you'd be devastated by that :/

 

 

 

I guess you took the point a little too literally.

 

Calling the game mediocre and informing players that they are not allowed to stand for mediocrity. Those were your words in multiple threads. You are the one who made it sound like players are not allowed to think for themselves with your words. That's all on you.

 

As for the second portion. You were suggesting that the player spend his time in game if he loved it so much instead of the forums. I simply pointed out that people can multitask. No need to get upset.

[robertthebard]

If you like the game so much, why are you constantly in the forums, instead of playing it? I wouldn't have any problem with you if you just did that. I guess the nuances of my posts continue to go over your head.

 

Wait, what? Now you're telling me how/where I should spend my time? I was standing at the shuttle to EC, waiting for one of the healers to get back from picking up their kids when I read and responded to your post. I realize that it's difficult for you to understand, but some of us have computers that can run more than one monitor, so when I have to go to the guild website to accept an application, and our op run is still on hold, I can browse here too. I know, it's hard to believe, isn't it?

[SithEBM-Reborn]

Calling the game mediocre and informing players that they are not allowed to stand for mediocrity. Those were your words in multiple threads. You are the one who made it sound like players are not allowed to think for themselves with your words. That's all on you.

 

As for the second portion. You were suggesting that the player spend his time in game if he loved it so much instead of the forums. I simply pointed out that people can multitask. No need to get upset.

So I guess the only non-trolly way of providing feedback on these forums is by blindly defending the game and EAware.

[Sangrar]

If you like the game so much, why are you constantly in the forums, instead of playing it? I wouldn't have any problem with you if you just did that. I guess the nuances of my posts continue to go over your head.

 

I personally have my game set to fullscreen(windowed) so I can easily go between forums and game uninhibited. By the way so mature trying to switch the conversation around on him.

[horrorfaneightys]

I have a tablet. I play the game on my computer whilst logged into the forums on the tablet.

[Sangrar]

So I guess the only non-trolly way of providing feedback on these forums is by blindly defending the game and EAware.

 

no, the non trolly way is to post your honest opinions without insulting other players, without throwing crap like "defender" or "drone" or "apologist", and to make some actual sense and with detail instead of going with a barely intelligible "fu bioware fix pvp this is all the cartel markets fault fu!!"