Bioware: Most of your players are pvp'ers.... figure it out!

[Sangrar]

Except that if 1.7 million people have unsubbed, then he can say with mathematical certainty that the majority of players have been dissatisfied with the game. Not including all the people currently subscribed that are barely satisfied enough with the game to keep playing.

 

the second part you really have no statistical evidence or proof about.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Except that if 1.7 million people have unsubbed, then he can say with mathematical certainty that the majority of players have been dissatisfied with the game. Not including all the people currently subscribed that are barely satisfied enough with the game to keep playing.

 

Nope. He still doesn't speak for those people unless he is an elected rep, which he has yet to provide documentation of such.

[Sangrar]

I brought up the past because it's affected SWTOR in present time. Still highly lacking in endgame and with a blow from ESO, how worse will it get with WildStar? The devs need to focus on the hardcore playerbases in order for SWTOR not to just survive and dwindle, but survive and thrive.

 

what blow from eso? Last I checked fleet still has way more than 140 people on it.

[robertthebard]

Why would a billion dollar corporation need overzealous defending to the point where you have to get other posters in trouble by moderation just for criticizing and/or questioning them?

 

Here's the real question, why do they feel the need to get themselves in trouble through moderation? I certainly never push the Report Post button unless it's sexually explicit, or trying to sell credits. I have, however, been banned from BSN for posting a link to the "My mom cancelled my WoW account" video in the 345,678th "I Hate the Ending" thread in the ME 3 forums. It seems to me that the detractors are faster to report "defenders" than vice versa. At least, from my own perspective, and, the reality is, I hated the endings too, but with 4 threads active on the front page at that time, #5 really wasn't needed.

[JediMasterSLC]

the second part you really have no statistical evidence or proof about.

 

Why would I need mathematical proof? I didn't say "a lot", or "a majority" of subscribers feel that way. I merely indicated that such people exist.

Edited May 18, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[robertthebard]

/Agree

 

Sangrar, I may not have any statistics on the ones not included who are barely satisfied, but many of those players have either left for ESO, waiting for WildStar, or just waiting for another game that can satisfy them more than below averagely. It's called bleeding subs, which SWTOR has been doing since launch.

 

I want this game to improve Sangrar, but in order for it to do so the devs NEED to start listening to the hardcore/competitive communities.

 

Oh, I think they're paying way too much attention to the "competitive" community; just look at FB and the OP nerfs, along with the upcoming nerfs to Juggs/Guradians. The "competitive" community is doing more than enough damage to the PvE aspects of the game, TYVM. I mean, come on, Spike now stuns instead of does it's knock down because the mobs started a petition on the forums? Getting knocked down was an inconvenience to them? In fairness though, it now has a fairly reliable stun, but really, the only reason to change that was because the "competitive" crowd couldn't compete with it, right?

 

So when the tank classes start feeling like they've been butchered enough, and the Ops players get tired of being pigeonholed into healer roles since their skills outside of that role are being whittled away by the "competitive" community and split, how much good is listening to the "competitive" community really doing?

[JediMasterSLC]

Nope. He still doesn't speak for those people unless he is an elected rep, which he has yet to provide documentation of such.

 

You're right: it's entirely possible that a significant fraction of those unsubs were completely satisfied with the game, but still unsubbed because.... umm, because....

[Sangrar]

You're right: it's entirely possible that a significant fraction of those unsubs were completely satisfied with the game, but still unsubbed because.... umm, because....

 

well here is an example of a guy who was satisfied with the game but unsubbed as he mainly played for the trooper story

[Capt_Beers]

Oh, I think they're paying way too much attention to the "competitive" community; just look at FB and the OP nerfs, along with the upcoming nerfs to Juggs/Guradians. The "competitive" community is doing more than enough damage to the PvE aspects of the game, TYVM. I mean, come on, Spike now stuns instead of does it's knock down because the mobs started a petition on the forums? Getting knocked down was an inconvenience to them? In fairness though, it now has a fairly reliable stun, but really, the only reason to change that was because the "competitive" crowd couldn't compete with it, right?

 

So when the tank classes start feeling like they've been butchered enough, and the Ops players get tired of being pigeonholed into healer roles since their skills outside of that role are being whittled away by the "competitive" community and split, how much good is listening to the "competitive" community really doing?

 

I don't know of a single competitive PvPer that agreed with the Op KD removal. I have no idea why they changed Spike but it's actually a buff to Sins. If you Spiked someone with Hold the Line up nothing happened to them since they are immune to physics. It will now stun them since it's a stun instead of a KD.

[Ukonius]

I'm fairly certain that BioWare are well aware of what the metrics are in their own game. Just like in every MMO, serious PvP'ers are a highly vocal minority. It's the same in every game. What're you? New?

 

 

 

^ This

[Sangrar]

Yet compare those guys to the million+ that unsubbed. Big difference. They are the majority, he's not. It's only common sense.

 

you misunderstand, the guy I quoted was talking about people unsubbing due to not being satisfied, that guy unsubbed because while he was satisfied he only played for the class story.

[Capt_Beers]

well here is an example of a guy who was satisfied with the game but unsubbed as he mainly played for the trooper story

 

That guy's opinion means less than nothing on this forum. He was clearly looking for a single player game.

[robertthebard]

There's a problem with that philosophy: anytime someone makes an argument that the other person doesn't like or can't provide a good response to, they could just claim "this is ridiculous, I'm done wasting my time with you". Anyone who has ever done competitive debate will tell you that an argument that goes answered is conceded, and considered as functionally true for the rest of the debate.

 

I can fix this really fast: The two points you "won" in the example were me not picking up the flamebait left for another poster. I don't really think that refusing to respond to flamebait is a loss, but you're certainly free to see it as a win, I wouldn't go all chest beating about it, but hey, what do I know, I'm just being level headed about obvious trolling. In case you didn't know, which it's likely that you don't, flame baiting is trolling as defined by the ToS. Refusing to respond to it does exactly one thing, neutralizes the troll, which is why we now have you claiming victory in an internet discussion, so, in the immortal words of Cmdr Shepard, "Congratulations?".

[Wylf]

You don't play an MMO with a singleplayer view in mind.

 

I. You mean "I don't play an MMO with a singleplayer view in mind.". Because other people most certainly do. Especially in a game which is heavily storydriven, like SWTOR.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I. You mean "I don't play an MMO with a singleplayer view in mind.". Because other people most certainly do. Especially in a game which is heavily storydriven, like SWTOR.

 

This. I play this MMO as a solo player first.

[JediMasterSLC]

Oh, I think they're paying way too much attention to the "competitive" community; just look at FB and the OP nerfs, along with the upcoming nerfs to Juggs/Guradians. The "competitive" community is doing more than enough damage to the PvE aspects of the game, TYVM. I mean, come on, Spike now stuns instead of does it's knock down because the mobs started a petition on the forums? Getting knocked down was an inconvenience to them? In fairness though, it now has a fairly reliable stun, but really, the only reason to change that was because the "competitive" crowd couldn't compete with it, right?

 

So when the tank classes start feeling like they've been butchered enough, and the Ops players get tired of being pigeonholed into healer roles since their skills outside of that role are being whittled away by the "competitive" community and split, how much good is listening to the "competitive" community really doing?

 

I don't see how they could be paying too much attention, considering that they couldn't pay any less attention to it. The spike change was certainly not endorsed by the competitive community lol. Anyway, it was a buff, because it can now be used on BH's that have hydraulics active.

 

The focused defense duration nerf is a good change for solo ranked, and will be mostly a nonfactor in group ranked (the players of which have not complained about jugs). The competitive community, as far as I've seen- myself included- have been very supportive of dps ops getting buffed into PvP viability. They certainly aren't the ones who QQ about them. The competitive community has also been vocal in speaking out against tank tunneling currently being the best strategy in group ranked, so we're certainly not trying to get tanks nerfed (I myself have proposed that pvp tank gear stats be increased, and defense chance be made more effective). Do you have any idea of what you're talking about? The competitive community agrees with you in virtually all of your complaints.

 

And what's FB lol.

Edited May 19, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Capt_Beers]

I. You mean "I don't play an MMO with a singleplayer view in mind.". Because other people most certainly do. Especially in a game which is heavily storydriven, like SWTOR.

 

People can play this game however they like but at the end of the day it's a multiplayer game. So I'm glad he enjoyed it but he isn't a valuable customer since he only wanted a single player game. He isn't going to stick around. He already left. So I don't see how he is relevant to the discussion.

[JediMasterSLC]

People can play this game however they like but at the end of the day it's a multiplayer game. So I'm glad he enjoyed it but he isn't a valuable customer since he only wanted a single player game. He isn't going to stick around. He already left. So I don't see how he is relevant to the discussion.

 

This.

[JediMasterSLC]

I can fix this really fast: The two points you "won" in the example were me not picking up the flamebait left for another poster. I don't really think that refusing to respond to flamebait is a loss, but you're certainly free to see it as a win, I wouldn't go all chest beating about it, but hey, what do I know, I'm just being level headed about obvious trolling. In case you didn't know, which it's likely that you don't, flame baiting is trolling as defined by the ToS. Refusing to respond to it does exactly one thing, neutralizes the troll, which is why we now have you claiming victory in an internet discussion, so, in the immortal words of Cmdr Shepard, "Congratulations?".

 

I'll admit that those first 2 paragraphs were partially addressed specifically at Andryah. There were also some pertinent things in those 2 paragraphs, but I didn't really expect another person to respond to them. All you had to do was not quote those paragraphs in your response, and I wouldn't have mentioned it. Instead, you replied to them with "nothing to see here", a pathetic attempt to debase the points made within.

[robertthebard]

Those nerfs were due to players who can't L2P and because of a mechanic that fails to work with knockdowns. Usually the "combat team" listens to these much lesser-skilled players so please don't claim that those QQ'ers are in fact a part of the competitive community because they're not.

 

On the first part, we agree, it was a L2P issue, not sure about the mechanics thing, haven't actively observed it, but the QQ threads in the PvP forums are part of the count that justifies a topic title like this one. So either they count, or they don't. The reality, to me, is that if the competitive community did as much shouting down of their L2P crowd as what's being done here against people that like the game, it might be a better overall experience. They don't, however, because these QQ threads give them a chance to throw around their catch phrases, such as Carebear, or BioDrone, or apologist.

 

You do realize that this thread originated as a QQ thread, right? In fact, it spent a couple of hours with the first post reading "Deleted", and was then re-edited to what we have now. This of course leads to the first couple of pages being completely out of context if they didn't quote the original OP. Hell, it even linked to a poll that you had to cherry pick specific responses to support the topic title, because if you looked at the entirety of the poll, the topic title made 0 sense. New Planets nearly doubled the new PvP content section, and I believe there were 3 other PvE aspects that were higher. But if you cherry picked the results the OP wanted you to cherry pick, he looked like the title was valid.

 

So by all means continue to crusade in the QQ thread while talking about the QQers not being part of the competitive crowd. For those of us that have been here since the OP read what it originally read, you're not helping your case.

[JediMasterSLC]

On the first part, we agree, it was a L2P issue, not sure about the mechanics thing, haven't actively observed it, but the QQ threads in the PvP forums are part of the count that justifies a topic title like this one. So either they count, or they don't. The reality, to me, is that if the competitive community did as much shouting down of their L2P crowd as what's being done here against people that like the game, it might be a better overall experience. They don't, however, because these QQ threads give them a chance to throw around their catch phrases, such as Carebear, or BioDrone, or apologist.

 

You do realize that this thread originated as a QQ thread, right? In fact, it spent a couple of hours with the first post reading "Deleted", and was then re-edited to what we have now. This of course leads to the first couple of pages being completely out of context if they didn't quote the original OP. Hell, it even linked to a poll that you had to cherry pick specific responses to support the topic title, because if you looked at the entirety of the poll, the topic title made 0 sense. New Planets nearly doubled the new PvP content section, and I believe there were 3 other PvE aspects that were higher. But if you cherry picked the results the OP wanted you to cherry pick, he looked like the title was valid.

 

So by all means continue to crusade in the QQ thread while talking about the QQers not being part of the competitive crowd. For those of us that have been here since the OP read what it originally read, you're not helping your case.

 

We do not endorse the OP. Obviously, this thread's discussion has since departed from the original topic. Also, did FB mean Fly By? Because the competitive community did not agree with that change either (that was BW's pve balance idea).

[robertthebard]

We do not endorse the OP. Obviously, this thread's discussion has since departed from the original topic. Also, did FB mean Fly By? Because the competitive community did not agree with that change either (that was BW's pve balance idea).

 

Flash Bang, from AoE to single target, barring one tree in Ops(?). It affects me directly on my Sniper, but my Op is still low enough that I can find ways to PvE w/out some CC. Again, I'm fairly certain that this wasn't "balanced" for PvE, as I haven't seen any of the mobs starting threads about it being OP and needing nerfed. The OS/FlyBy nerf didn't affect me much at all. Yes, my grenades hit harder now, but really, I leveled all the way to 48 w/out it on a sniper and a GS, the nerf's effect on me was minimal, at best. When you start cranking out the rest of the nerfs that were done in the name of balancing PvP, though, it starts sending a clear message that the competitive crowd is being listened to, even when they should be ignored.

[Capt_Beers]

Flash Bang, from AoE to single target, barring one tree in Ops(?). It affects me directly on my Sniper, but my Op is still low enough that I can find ways to PvE w/out some CC. Again, I'm fairly certain that this wasn't "balanced" for PvE, as I haven't seen any of the mobs starting threads about it being OP and needing nerfed. The OS/FlyBy nerf didn't affect me much at all. Yes, my grenades hit harder now, but really, I leveled all the way to 48 w/out it on a sniper and a GS, the nerf's effect on me was minimal, at best. When you start cranking out the rest of the nerfs that were done in the name of balancing PvP, though, it starts sending a clear message that the competitive crowd is being listened to, even when they should be ignored.

 

The devs explicitly said Orbital was a PvE nerf. They wanted to discourage the stacking of Snipers in raids. And an instant cast 30m AoE mezz that is 2 seconds longer that the other 2 AoE mezzes (that are melee range) was clearly over tuned. And all ops retained the AoE flashbang.

[JediMasterSLC]

Flash Bang, from AoE to single target, barring one tree in Ops(?). It affects me directly on my Sniper, but my Op is still low enough that I can find ways to PvE w/out some CC. Again, I'm fairly certain that this wasn't "balanced" for PvE, as I haven't seen any of the mobs starting threads about it being OP and needing nerfed. The OS/FlyBy nerf didn't affect me much at all. Yes, my grenades hit harder now, but really, I leveled all the way to 48 w/out it on a sniper and a GS, the nerf's effect on me was minimal, at best. When you start cranking out the rest of the nerfs that were done in the name of balancing PvP, though, it starts sending a clear message that the competitive crowd is being listened to, even when they should be ignored.

 

Come on now, don't go making a fool out of yourself. The skill that makes flashbang AOE is a baseline operative passive skill, not something from a skill tree. Look it up/play the game if you don't believe me. BW seems to be nerfing AOE in general, for both pve and pvp, so I don't think either game mode can be blamed there. I agree with the nerf though: 30m instant aoe cc is probably bad. Why are you mentioning leveling in a balance discussion lol. Now tell us: what nerfs that you didn't like do you think were PvP-oriented? And do I really need to explain to you the merits of catering to the competitive community?

Edited May 19, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[robertthebard]

Come on now, don't go making a fool out of yourself. The skill that makes flashbang AOE is a baseline operative passive skill, not something from a skill tree. Look it up/play the game if you don't believe me. BW seems to be nerfing AOE in general, for both pve and pvp, so I don't think either game mode can be blamed there. I agree with the nerf though: 30m instant aoe cc is probably bad. Why are you mentioning leveling in a balance discussion lol. Now tell us: what nerfs that you didn't like do you think were PvP-oriented? And do I really need to explain to you the merits of catering to the competitive community?

 

Because I was answering the question you posted? As far as catering to the "competitive" community, I have seen that be the downfall of more than one MMO. No matter what, we're going to have "this needs nerfed" or "this needs buffed" threads due to people that simply can't play. The problem is, the majority of the "this needs nerfed" threads are going to be from where? The "competitive" community, whether all the members of that community agree or not, or would claim them if they could avoid it, that's where they come from because, as I said, the mobs in PvE aren't filling out exit surveys/writing petitions about how class x is OP and needs to be nerfed. Any nerf to PvE to cater to PvP is bad. My jugg, who has never set foot in a WZ, but has used ED to successfully kill an end boss in a HM FP when it managed to wipe my party shouldn't have to be nerfed because PvPers can't figure out how to beat 'em. Especially in Solo Ranked, you know, the people that are supposed to be the best of the best?