The trouble with GSF: no variety in defenses

[Devrius]

In most MMOs there are 5 ways of mitigating damage:

- Meat tanks: a mass of hit points that out lives their opponent.

 

- Tanks: damage reduction stacking, usually have less hit points then meat tanks but much harder to do significant damage on.

 

- Out healing damage, a build that has enough DR/Hit points that their healing abilities allows them to keep themselves up while slowly bringing their foe down, attrition is the name of the game.

 

- Mobility: avoiding the damage all together by simply not being where the enemy is shooting/attacking.

 

- Dodge/Evasion: the passive ability to avoid attacks by virtue of being hard to hit.

 

In GSF only the last 2 work.

 

You can't really be a meat tank burst damage is king and with the right build and crew skill any ship can be melted in a matter of seconds, nor can you stack DR since there are weapons that bypass it completely, out healing damage? Not really an option (I don't have a problem with that though).

 

Which leaves us with mobility and evasion, which greatly benefit scouts.

 

The reason T2 scouts are so over powering is the fact that they have the best defenses (with an extra lock break no less), on top of the fire power to destroy "meat tanks" (Strikes) and the DR bypass for Tanks (Boy Bombers).

 

 

I really think DR needs to be looked at again, it makes no sense to have but 2 working defenses in GSF, if DR could be on par or at least competitive compared to Evasion I think we would see a game more balanced without the need to nerf T2 scouts.

 

 

One elegant way to achieve this I have seen a few times in the forums: make it so Armor Bypass is 50%, not a 100%.

 

This way those who can't stack Evasion would have a form of defense available to them, right now (and with the changes to Interdiction Mine even more so) stacking DR is a niche build.

 

Think about it, for many ships investing in defenses is a niche...

[mr_sim]

Or we could just remove a lot of armor bypass from the game.

[tommmsunb]

This isnt an mmo, this is an arcade shooter, but the fact remains that 4/5 of your dmg types exist, bombers are pure meat tanks that can heal themselves, scouts blend evasion and mobility, strikes blend mobility and meat tank, gunships blend evasion and mobility. Also FTR you forgot stealth classes for dmg avoidance.

 

I honestly think this is an LTP issue more than anything.

 

I also hate to sound elitist but from your previous posts you've demonstrated a few telltale signs of inexperience, I'd recommend not following the current rhetoric that these boards have put forth along the lines of "I cant do it now, it must be OP" and give yourself a bit more time to form opinions on this.

 

 

Also if you want some examples of pilots who do it right with meat tanking and damage reduction, talk to Kvikorma of ebon hawk, or aloriana of jung ma/ebon hawk/harbinger, I personally weigh all strikes I fight against Aloriana, i dont know kvikorma personally myself but I've flown against him and he certainly knows how to take shots.

 

Also sidenote, i have legitimately got my 20k medal off of aloriana before killing him on several occasions, he knows how to do it right.

[Devrius]

This isnt an mmo, this is an arcade shooter, but the fact remains that 4/5 of your dmg types exist, bombers are pure meat tanks that can heal themselves, scouts blend evasion and mobility, strikes blend mobility and meat tank, gunships blend evasion and mobility. Also FTR you forgot stealth classes for dmg avoidance.

 

I honestly think this is an LTP issue more than anything.

 

I also hate to sound elitist but from your previous posts you've demonstrated a few telltale signs of inexperience, I'd recommend not following the current rhetoric that these boards have put forth along the lines of "I cant do it now, it must be OP" and give yourself a bit more time to form opinions on this.

 

 

Also if you want some examples of pilots who do it right with meat tanking and damage reduction, talk to Kvikorma of ebon hawk, or aloriana of jung ma/ebon hawk/harbinger, I personally weigh all strikes I fight against Aloriana, i dont know kvikorma personally myself but I've flown against him and he certainly knows how to take shots.

 

Also sidenote, i have legitimately got my 20k medal off of aloriana before killing him on several occasions, he knows how to do it right.

 

Yeah only 600 matches, tell me how many thousands do I need before me lord acknowledges me? When will I be worthy?

 

In all seriousness if you had no point to make, why answer at all? Bored or to feel superior?

 

You could have at least mentioned what you thought about the 100% DR bypass, but no...

[Altheran]

Armor pen isn't as strong as people make it sound like.

 

Weapons with armor pen, unlike most other weapons do not have access to +16% hull damage. Only BLC can have both, but this one is abnormal.

 

In the end, +16% or ignore armor, does almost the same thing : increase hull damage. The only difference, is that one is flat, the other one is variable.

 

You can do the math yourself, both affect hull damage in the same way if DR is 13.7%. Above, armor pen wins, but under, extra damage wins.

Multiply that DR amount by 2 if armor pen were ignoring 50% only... For a total of 27.4%. Only few rare builds will attain this value. Armor pen risks to become very niche if reduced at 50%. Not that there are much more builds over 13% of DR, but there are a few more possibilities.

 

In my opinion, reducing armor pen to 50% on everything is a bad idea. That would mostly make the choice hardly competitive when compared to another talent.

So I think it should be tuned down to 50% when it's mandatory (Slug & Pods) but remain at 100% on others (Heavy & Concussion).

What ? I didn't mention Bursts ? That one already has the +16% talent. It can have something else instead.

[okiobe]

I've been thinking about a way to give strikes a defensive buff. What about a reflective shield similar to guardians in the ground game. It would block incoming damage and reflect a fixed amount back to the attacker. Put it on a 45 sec or so CD. This way they could block damage while also giving a surprise to a jousting scout. The reflected damage would not be avoidable by evasion. The devs could get more creative with the abilities to make each type unique and viable.

 

EDIT: It would also reflect missile/torpedo damage.

Edited May 14, 2014 by okiobe

[Devrius]

I've been thinking about a way to give strikes a defensive buff. What about a reflective shield similar to guardians in the ground game. It would block incoming damage and reflect a fixed amount back to the attacker. Put it on a 45 sec or so CD. This way they could block damage while also giving a surprise to a jousting scout. The reflected damage would not be avoidable by evasion. The devs could get more creative with the abilities to make each type unique and viable.

 

EDIT: It would also reflect missile/torpedo damage.

 

That would be wayyy too powerful, the idea is to make DR a bit better not shift the meta into Striker control.

[Kuciwalker]

Armor pen isn't as strong as people make it sound like.

 

Weapons with armor pen, unlike most other weapons do not have access to +16% hull damage. Only BLC can have both, but this one is abnormal.

 

In the end, +16% or ignore armor, does almost the same thing : increase hull damage. The only difference, is that one is flat, the other one is variable.

 

You can do the math yourself, both affect hull damage in the same way if DR is 13.7%. Above, armor pen wins, but under, extra damage wins.

Multiply that DR amount by 2 if armor pen were ignoring 50% only... For a total of 27.4%. Only few rare builds will attain this value. Armor pen risks to become very niche if reduced at 50%. Not that there are much more builds over 13% of DR, but there are a few more possibilities.

 

In my opinion, reducing armor pen to 50% on everything is a bad idea. That would mostly make the choice hardly competitive when compared to another talent.

So I think it should be tuned down to 50% when it's mandatory (Slug & Pods) but remain at 100% on others (Heavy & Concussion).

What ? I didn't mention Bursts ? That one already has the +16% talent. It can have something else instead.

 

This post is so ignorant I almost don't know where to start.

 

First, the +damage to shields option is frequently superior to the +damage to hull option, because most shots hit shields. So from the start this comparison is suspect.

 

Second, we see almost no DR-stacking in the meta precisely because 100% armor pen is ubiquitous. If DR stacking were a more viable build, we would see lots of ships with 34-39% DR. Even 50% armor pen is very, very valuable against a target like that.

 

Third, turrets exist. Turrets have IIRC 70% DR. Armor pen will still be very valuable purely for the sake of domination.

 

Fourth, charged plating.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Gavin_Kelvar]

In my opinion, reducing armor pen to 50% on everything is a bad idea. That would mostly make the choice hardly competitive when compared to another talent.

So I think it should be tuned down to 50% when it's mandatory (Slug & Pods) but remain at 100% on others (Heavy & Concussion).

What ? I didn't mention Bursts ? That one already has the +16% talent. It can have something else instead.

 

Agreed. I think it would also risk nerfing weapon so they can't do their intended job (protons and HLC come to mind since they pretty much exist to destroy armored targets as there are better dogfighting weapons).

[okiobe]

That would be wayyy too powerful, the idea is to make DR a bit better not shift the meta into Striker control.

 

Not really. If you are dumb enough to joust when its up then yes you deserve to die. But with strikes lower mobility and range it wouldn't really make them invulnerable. Once it runs out they can still die. It would also replace a shield component you you would have to choose.

Edited May 14, 2014 by okiobe