Seperatist or Republic?

[Beniboybling]

No, I didn't forget. I'm looking at this as if the Battle of Geonosis had just happened, and I had to pick a side.

 

The Trade Federation, which is now part of the Separatist movement, was the organization that invaded a planet. And now they're going to be given the power to be on the council of a government that rules thousands of systems?

 

Aw heck no.

 

So what if the Republic did nothing? The Trade Federation did something and I hate the fact that they did it. No way am I gonna be ruled by them, much less support them. The Trade Federation "wasn't aware" of what was going on at Naboo? There's no way I would believe that, and even if I did it would just prove how horrible of a government they would be if they let their lackies run around terrorizing worlds with no oversight.

 

Even if it's a lesser of two evils scenario, the Republic is definitely the lesser.

OK, we are making too many assumptions about how the Confederacy actually works here, which is unsuprising considering its undergone something of a retcon with TCW series. But anyway, lets clear things up:

 

The Trade Federation, the Techno Union and everyone else on the so called "Separatist Council" are not all members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems and having varying levels of allegiance. The InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Trade Federation in particular are neutral. The meeting on Geonosis, when you see all the mega-corps supposedly pledge their allegiance to the CIS was a mere business deal, all they were doing was agreeing to fund the CIS with battle droids etc. and throughout the war merely managed their interests.

 

There are also many different entities within these mega-corps with different branches of power, the Trade Federation for example was not just made up of Neimodians, they were just one faction trying to gain influence.

 

Anyway Separatist Parliament are responsible for the 'governing' on the Confedarcy, though Dooku's machinations often subvert their authority and altogether the Confederacy was a loose alliance not wanting or permitting a replacement central government. But we shouldn't just assume that all the mega-corps through their lot in with the CIS. They didn't, they played both sides, the Trade Federation that Warren is denouncing has a seat in the Senate.

 

Don't think staying with the Republic is dissociating yourself with the Trade Federation. Because you'd have a better chance of doing that in the Separatist Parliament, more likely you'd be force to get cudgy with them and be corrupted.

 

Note that the Trade Federation are not a wholly negative party, there are actually quite beneficial and necessary in the galaxy, opening up commerce and trade in backwater worlds and extending civilization across the galaxy. However under the Republic's governing its allowed to become corrupted and bloated, and this is exactly what the Separatist in part wanted to free themselves from. To quote a Separatist senator:

 

"This is a democracy, and unlike the Republic, corporation do not rule us."

 

Ironic? Maybe. But I think there is something to be said about a laissez-faire governing system preventing mega-corps from using the power of the Senate to exert their influence over other legislature and other systems. And the fact that half of the Senate were in the pockets of the mega-corps and that the Senate system allowed this.

 

Given that, we shouldn't just assume that with a Republic victory everything would be fine and dandy. The Republic certainly wouldn't address the Separatists' legitimate concerns after they've been demonized by propaganda nor should we assume that the mega-corps stranglehold over the Senate would change. It hasn't during the war after all.

 

All in all siding with the Republic is not siding against the Trade Federation and the other mega-corps anymore than siding with the Confederacy is - its the system of governing that is changing, not the powers of the mega-corps.

[Warren-Stride]

The Trade Federation, the Techno Union and everyone else on the so called "Separatist Council" are not all members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems and having varying levels of allegiance. The InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Trade Federation in particular are neutral. The meeting on Geonosis, when you see all the mega-corps supposedly pledge their allegiance to the CIS was a mere business deal, all they were doing was agreeing to fund the CIS with battle droids etc. and throughout the war merely managed their interests.

 

The Separatist Council was the legislative branch of the CIS.

 

Which means that Nute Gunray, the mastermind of the Naboo invasion, is making the laws of the CIS.

 

If they were not members of the CIS, then the senators aren't members of the Republic.

 

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

 

We all have different points of view. I'm just sharing mine.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Warren-Stride]

There are also many different entities within these mega-corps with different branches of power, the Trade Federation for example was not just made up of Neimodians, they were just one faction trying to gain influence.

 

After the Invasion of Naboo, the Trade Federation was only Neimodians. The other species involved split off to become the Metatheran Cartel.

[TheWhacko]

Yyyeah, I'd stick with the Republic, if only because of the fact that the CIS has a nasty habit of using known war criminals as their general staff and, you know, the chemical and germ warfare.

[Beniboybling]

The Separatist Council was the legislative branch of the CIS.

 

Which means that Nute Gunray, the mastermind of the Naboo invasion, is making the laws of the CIS.

 

If they were not members of the CIS, then the senators aren't members of the Republic.

 

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

 

We all have different points of view. I'm just sharing mine.

As I said, this is a retcon so quoting Wookieepedia is invalidated in light of recent sources. The Separatist Council is not the legislative branch of the CIS, that is the role of the Separatist Parliament, nor are they members of the CIS. The role of the Separatist Council is to maintain their business interests and investment in the war and the Confederacy.

 

This is not a point of view or an opinion, this is simply a fact. Here is what Dave Filoni has said:

 

Something that has really come to light in the Clone Wars series is that George sees it as Separatists, Republic, and then in the middle is big business, the corporations...They sit neutrally in the war, shipping arms to both sides.

 

...

 

In the EU its always been seen that the Trade Federation are Separatists, but that's not true. Obi-Wan Kenobi witnessed a business deal going on...those corporate leaders telling Dooku they are going to sell him arms and sell him droids to build an army. That doesn't mean that those corporations don't also have deals with the Republic to give them arms. But it got blanketed in all the media that it was very black and white.

 

--Taken from Clone Wars Season 4 Video Commentary

 

How else do you think the Trade Federation has a seat in the Republic Senate? And controlled many of the Senators? How else were the Republic able to make deals with the InterGalactic Banking Clan? They are neutral parties.

 

Again this isn't an opinion, joining the Separatists does not mean you will be ruled by corporations. The whole point of the Confederacy was to ensure that planets could rule themselves, the Federation have no authority over how your run your system. There only concerns are things related to trade and commerce etc.

 

On the other hand by being a member of the Republic you do run the risk of being "ruled" by the Trade Federation who exercised their monetary power to exploit impoverished systems into doing what they want.

 

I understand your perspective is a point of view, but you are incorrect concerning your assessment of the Confederacy, you don't really think people would secede from the Senate to escape the control of the mega-corps by joining a state run by megacorps? Again the Confederacy was a loose alliance with no central government.

[SNCommand]

No, I didn't forget. I'm looking at this as if the Battle of Geonosis had just happened, and I had to pick a side.

 

Personally I would have been very wary of siding with the Republic after the Battle of Geonosis, the Republic was the instigator in the conflict, and attacked a Confederate aligned world with the goal of rescuing Republic operatives caught on Confederate soil

 

I think I would also eventually side with the CIS as the galaxy would be better of with a Confederate victory, too much power is centralized in the Republic, too easy for a few people to oppress remote systems, in the Confederacy the members are much more autonomous, and it's far less chance of one individual seizing power after the conflict is over

[Beniboybling]

After the Invasion of Naboo, the Trade Federation was only Neimodians. The other species involved split off to become the Metatheran Cartel.

Yeah I understand that, I was merely explaining how the mega-corps are not always unified factions solely under the control of single individuals. A better example would be the numerous leaders within the InterGalactic Banking Clan.

 

I.e. the Core Five and the Chairman.

[Beniboybling]

Personally I would have been very wary of siding with the Republic after the Battle of Geonosis, the Republic was the instigator in the conflict, and attacked a Confederate aligned world with the goal of rescuing Republic operatives caught on Confederate soil

 

I think I would also eventually side with the CIS as the galaxy would be better of with a Confederate victory, too much power is centralized in the Republic, too easy for a few people to oppress remote systems, in the Confederacy the members are much more autonomous, and it's far less chance of one individual seizing power after the conflict is over

With an army of 192,000 clones and a fleet they just "happened" to have on hand.

[Warren-Stride]

The Separatist Council is not the legislative branch of the CIS, that is the role of the Separatist Parliament, nor are they members of the CIS. The role of the Separatist Council is to maintain their business interests and investment in the war and the Confederacy.

 

The "neutral parties" whose leaders were personally guarded by General Grievous on Utapau? The people who aren't members of the CIS, and yet once they're killed on Mustafar the CIS dissolved almost instantly?

 

Regardless of whatever recton has happened, there's no retconing the movies. And the most important members of the CIS are obviously Count Dooku, Greivous, and the Separatist Council.

 

Nute Gunray might be "neutral" but his life's goal is also to kill a Republic senator and he didn't seem particularly happy that the Chancellor got away when

on Utapau.

 

Also, the Separatist Council had bounties placed on their heads by the Republic. Nute Gunray seemed to be wanted by the Republic government, and he was arrested on sight on Rodia.

 

I don't think the members of the Separatist Council were very 'neutral.' Rectons can say what they want, but actions speak louder than words.

[Beniboybling]

The "neutral parties" whose leaders were personally guarded by General Grievous on Utapau? The people who aren't members of the CIS, and yet once they're killed on Mustafar the CIS dissolved almost instantly?

 

Regardless of whatever recton has happened, there's no retconing the movies. And the most important members of the CIS are obviously Count Dooku, Greivous, and the Separatist Council.

 

Nute Gunray might be "neutral" but his life's goal is also to kill a Republic senator and he didn't seem particularly happy that the Chancellor got away when

on Utapau.

 

Also, the Separatist Council had bounties placed on their heads by the Republic. Nute Gunray seemed to be wanted by the Republic government, and he was arrested on sight on Rodia.

 

I don't think the members of the Separatist Council were very 'neutral.' Rectons can say what they want, but actions speak louder than words.

I think you need to consider that the Republic viewed trading with the Separatists, who I'm not sure they even acknowledged as a legitimate government, as treason. And this is why the mega-corporations who effectively committed treason by trading with them had to play it very carefully, and why those directly associated with the Separatists were wanted men. But that doesn't change the fact they were neutral, and didn't make laws for Separatist systems.

 

For example:

 

• The Trade Federation claimed Nute Gunray to be a "radical" who did not represent their interests, and through that facade continued to trade with the Republic and had a seat in the Republic Senate.
   
   
  
• The Techno Union 'dissolved' Baktoid Armor Workshop publicly who were involved in the Naboo Crisis, but in reality secretly merged it with the secret company Baktoid Combat Automata and Baktoid Fleet Ordance.
  

The Republic didn't want the megacorps playing neutral, they wanted them to trade only with the Republic and saw their affiliation with the Separatists as treasonous, which is why they put bounties on those directly involved. But just because the Republic wanted them captured, does not mean they were members of the Separatists. It was just business.

 

And of course, if the Separatist Council was destroyed the Confederacy would not longer have its resource backing.

 

Remember this is coming directly from George Lucas himself, try and find loop holes if you like but the fact is that the Separatist Council were not actual members of the Confederacy and were not in charge of legislature. They also had a great deal of control and influence over the Republic Senate, arguably more than over Separatists worlds.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Warren-Stride]

Remember this is coming directly from George Lucas himself, try and find loop holes if you like but the fact is that the Separatist Council were not actual members of the Confederacy and were not in charge of legislature. They also had a great deal of control and influence over the Republic Senate, arguably more than over Separatists worlds.

 

What business were they doing with the Republic? What arms were they selling? How did they have control of the senate?

 

To me it sounds like the corporations are selling battle droids, tanks, and warships to the CIS, and "arms" to the Republic. Then the CEOs of the corporations are personally protected by Grievous because they're traitors, and yet the Republic still lets them sit in the Senate.

 

I'm not sure that makes much sense. And even if it does, it's obvious that the corporations are heavily favoring the CIS, and only faking the neutrality to avoid being exterminated by the Republic, which the CEOs obviously fear.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

What business were they doing with the Republic? What arms were they selling? How did they have control of the senate?

 

To me it sounds like the corporations are selling battle droids, tanks, and warships to the CIS, and "arms" to the Republic. Then the CEOs of the corporations are personally protected by Grievous because they're traitors, and yet the Republic still lets them sit in the Senate.

 

I'm not sure that makes much sense. And even if it does, it's obvious that the corporations are heavily favoring the CIS, and only faking the neutrality to avoid being exterminated by the Republic, which the CEOs obviously fear.

...the Republic reluctantly ignored the treasonous acts of entities like the Federation and the InterGalactic Banking Clan, as those megacorporations were vital to the Republic's economy.

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia, source from Star Wars: The Clone Wars: New Battlefronts: The Visual Guide.

 

Granted a seat in the Senate, the Trade Federation soon became enormously powerful. The cartel moved swiftly and ruthlessly into the new Free Trade Zone, crafting agreements with impoverished sectors that effectively handed over their representation and votes in the Senate. Other Rim sectors preserved their political independence but not their economic self-determination, becoming virtual thralls of the Federation. Within two generations, the Trade Federation controlled enough of the Senate votes to hamper competitors, influence courts, and stall legislation it opposed.

 

--Taken from the Essential Guide to Warfare.

 

And yes pretty much. The corporations while actively committing "treason" (at least in the Republic's books) could not be persecuted by the Republic lest they want their economy to fall apart nor could the mega-corps break away entirely from the Republic without it cutting into their profits. And to be honest I'd question how much they really cared about the Confederacy and its victory over the Republic, they actively schemed to keep the war going so that they could profit, and the Republic ultimately was the source of their power. All they get from the Confedarcy is free trade.

 

Considering them as a neutral party really makes a whole lot more sense, Dooku makes a speech about Republic corruption and the Senate being controlled by the mega-corps and bureaucrats etc. and invites Senators to join to join him. The mega-corps see a chance to profit from the inevitable war and provide them with arms. Just business.

 

But anyway, yeah, the Trade Federation has strong ties with the Confederacy no doubt but lets just be clear that they are not making any laws over what is a coalition of independent systems with no central government. And by being independent and not having a central govt. the megacorps can't control you through Senate corruption.

 

Of course this is just one perspective, I just want to get the facts straight.

 

P.S. If the Republic could exterminate the mega-corps they would have done so, lets face it nobody believed that they had no affiliation with the Separatists, but they couldn't because they were vital to the economy.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Scutum]

Personally I would have been very wary of siding with the Republic after the Battle of Geonosis, the Republic was the instigator in the conflict, and attacked a Confederate aligned world with the goal of rescuing Republic operatives caught on Confederate soil

 

I think I would also eventually side with the CIS as the galaxy would be better of with a Confederate victory, too much power is centralized in the Republic, too easy for a few people to oppress remote systems, in the Confederacy the members are much more autonomous, and it's far less chance of one individual seizing power after the conflict is over

 

I fail to see how attacking a planet that is building war droids and has your people captured and about to be executed without even consulting you is "instigating". I can understand being somewhat wary when your government suddenly whips out a clone army, but when the war started just as suddenly and it's obvious that the droids were built beforehand as well it shows just how desperate the republic was. The droid army build-up happened BEFORE the clone army was unleashed, so what would have happened if the did NOT have the army? They would have been held at gunpoint and forced to give in to separatist demands, which under Palpatine would have meant an empire for him anyway.

 

And on the idea of centralized power yes it does make it more possible for an autocratic force to rise, but it is also more efficient than a loose organization such as the Confederate States of America and the Articles of Confederation in the earliest part of independent US history. In both cases it was incredibly difficult for the head of state to both gather taxes, soldiers, and making it all work since some states had different currencies, and on a galactic scale imagine how many different currencies and laws you would have to deal with.

 

Another issue with such a loose system is that it can lead to potential conflict within, since the main government has no real authority in telling the member planets what to do. The Republic may be unfair sometimes to non-member planets, but at least there is not as much potential galactic war. If there is conflict between two or more systems in the Confederacy, how can the central government claim the authority to put an end to it?

 

As for the fate of the galaxy after a Separatist victory, I'm not entirely sure. I'm not entirely sure that the Separatist style of governing is superior to the Republic, all I believe is that the Separatists are the most sure fire way of eliminating the problems within the Republic which to be quite honest is beyond saving. Like Dooku said, the Republic cannot be fixed, its time to start over, it needed to be torn down and started anew and the Jedi with it. Metaphorically speaking of course. I'm not advocating an extermination of the Jedi, just a change in their role in the galaxy.

 

But we should remember that the Separatists are not quite a state, but a movement. They were all members of the Republic once and don't all totally believe the Republic should be destroyed, they merely demand change, and are willing to leave the Republic and turn against it to achieve this. If peace between the Republic and the Separatists were made and diplomacy was allowed to resume, with the threat of war being all too real the Senate might have reconsidered making drastic reforms to the political system and exterminating corruption.

 

Or at the very least, achieve a coexistence.

 

 

The Separatists aren't all the idealists people are making them out to be, and Dooku said a lot of things that were also meant to support his master's plan just as much as winning the war. His propaganda is of course going to put the Republic in an un-fixable light, but that does not mean it's the complete truth. No matter what is said, it's true that the Republic was in desperate need of fixing, but splitting the galaxy is not going to suddenly change that. Imagine if some of these idealists went to someone like Padme or Organa and stated their grievances, since either one would listen and bring it to public attention, especially effective for Padme since she is known throughout the galaxy for the Naboo incident.

 

With the support of the separatists still in the Republic as well as the common citizens who were dissatisfied it's most likely that an offensive against the blatant corruption in the senate could have been mounted. While it's difficult to do so, it is still possible to create change even in the face of corruption as long as republican tradition still exists, which it would since Palpatine would not have an excuse to seize power. Since the war had already started however, leaving the Republic to go with the separatists simply robs Palpatine's opposition of another voice, leaving only those who want or don't mind him in power.

 

Ending the war as soon as possible is the only way to prevent such drastic actions, and siding with the Republic is the only way to preserve a more efficient united galaxy.

[Beniboybling]

It seems a valid claim to me, the mega corporations have a stranglehold over the Senate and now the Chancellor is using the war effort to centralize power, meanwhile effectively martial law is being imposed slowly yet surely. Perhaps its not beyond saving, but drastic measures need to be taken to fix it, and I don't believe you can operate within the system without being corrupted by it, or else having your voice stifled by others.

 

Indeed, anyone who spoke out in support of the Separatist ideals in the Senate were demonized and had to be very careful in how they voiced their opinions lest them be accused of being Separatist sympathisers. So you'd be incorrect in assuming that their was support for the Separatists in the Senate, or at the very least it was silenced.

 

Negotiations with the Separatist however did happen on several occasions, though they were frowned upon by many members of the Senate, so you cannot accuse the Separatists of not being open to negotiations. I do agree however the peace talks should be encouraged and that peace between the Republic and the Separatists would have been the most viable option. However I strongly disagree that a total Republic victory would have lead to change.

[Sadishist]

The Republic may be corrupt, but its underlying principles remain. I would join Mon Mothma and Bail Organa in fighting the corruption of the Senate and the Chancellor. It may not be a battle that can be won, but then:

 

"Some fights must be fought whether you believe you can win them or not."

 

It's certainly better than siding with the guys that condone genocide and chemical warfare.

 

In fiction, maybe. In real life however, no one wants to play the hero since "good guy armor" doesn't exist.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Sadishist

[Aurbere]

In fiction, maybe. In real life however, no one wants to play the hero since "good guy armor" doesn't exist.

 

The fight doesn't have to be won, so long as it is fought.