The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

[Beniboybling]

Well I don't have a lot of information on them so I'll base it on what i know. They are very much alike, but I think Plo would win. First he is a "veteran" of two war with 400 years of experience and he has more useful force abilities that he can exploit in this duel, enough to tip the balance in his favour.

Waaah? Plo Koon is 400 years old!?

[ShadowMudkip]

Waaah? Plo Koon is 400 years old!?

 

That's what I was thinking.

[Aurbere]

Waaah? Plo Koon is 400 years old!?

 

Theoretically. But nothing conclusive.

[Aurbere]

Any more final argument?

[Beniboybling]

I have no final argument.

[Aurbere]

I have no final argument.

 

'Kay.

[ShadowMudkip]

None from me. Though I would REALLY like Koon to win.

[ShadowMudkip]

Uh Oh Aubere don't forget about your battlezone!!

[tunewalker]

I will put in final arguements in a bit probably. Give me some time its just a lot of things going on.

[Aurbere]

I will put in final arguements in a bit probably. Give me some time its just a lot of things going on.

 

Whenever you're ready, Tune.

 

Not rushing you or anything.

[tunewalker]

Whenever you're ready, Tune.

 

Not rushing you or anything.

 

So sorry i still havent gotten to this things have been kind of crazy

[Aurbere]

So sorry i still havent gotten to this things have been kind of crazy

 

Take your time. No rush.

[Aurbere]

While we're waiting for Tune to make his argument, how does everybody feel if I post an exhibition thread to demo a 4-way match? Edited April 11, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

While we're waiting for Tune to make his argument, how does everybody feel if I post an exhibition thread to demo a 4-way match?

4-way match eh? Will that be a 2 v 2 or an all out brawl?

[Aurbere]

4-way match eh? Will that be a 2 v 2 or an all out brawl?

 

All out brawl. I'll try a 2v2 if people want one.

[tunewalker]

Ok final arguement. Sorry I know i have been gone from this for some time.

 

First I want to again talk about physical strength vs physical strength here. Plo Koon was second only to anakin in Djem So masters of his era, and was able to fight off against Savage. As Beni pointed out before the only people who have been able to deflect his blows that were weaker then Fisto did so by redirecting them. This means Plo matching him blow for blow in a power centric duel means he has more then enough strength to fight droma.

 

 

We know droma has Dark Rage..... but what has he done with it? What super feat of strength has he achieved with it outside of beating jedi using Djem So, something Koon did in his own era and could do to any one save for The Chosen One. I see nothing strength wise that Droma did that Koon isnt potentially capable of, so for me giving the physical edge to either is impossible. The era's are to wide and they accomplished similar tasks in a similar way. Either could have been just as successful as the other.

 

 

This is where we talk about force powers. While I feel Droma may have more raw power, this is where we talked about Pushes and the like. A Force Push can not be completely negated with out the active use of a power. If you are caught off gaurd with one, you will be thrown on your rump and it will hurt. You may argue that passive shields lessen the blow, but they do not negate the blow entirely. Obviously Koon will be just as vunerable to this as Droma, but Koon has shown a greater willingness to do so in combat.

 

We also cant assume that Droma is going to change his pattern to match Koon. He doesnt do so on combat for a reason. Combat is very reflexcive and as such much of what some one does is as well. They do what they know and what they are comfortable doing. Yes manuevering and positioning is based on mentality and awareness of the battle, but the rest of the combat is the body is trained to respond to situations in certain ways. In this regard Koon's relative ease with which he can chain force based attack (pushes or TK hurling objects both in sight and out of sight) gives him the slight edge. In a contest of Djem SO vs Djem So where the physical capabilities and skill of the combatants are to close to call the contest is decided on mentality and force powers.

 

The mentality is again so close to call, while Droma MAY be more powerful in the force, its Koon's greater affinity for using it in combat that gives him the tiniest edge he needs to come out on top. Just one rock to a shoulder can weaken Droma enough that the next crashing blow from the Kel Dor master can bring him down. Of course the same could be said for droma against Koon, but Droma isnt as likely to do so mid combat, by the time he starts he will already be behind and playing the catch up game, and thats the inheraint problem. Djem So is about dominating the duel, the first person to get the edge in this contest is going to be the winner, because once the enemy is on the back foot they will not let them recover. This also fits even better into Koon's application of Djem So, he isnt about speed he is about power and most importantly TIMING. Finding that right moment or creating that right moment with his force abilities and then taking that split second advantage and making it work for him in grand ways.

 

In the end I think its going to be the combination of Koon's mentality and his greater affinity for chaining Force based attacks into his saber sequences that will give him the W here.

[Beniboybling]

Concerning dark rage, I think you would be unwise to ignore it, we don't need a set of feats to make it relevant. Dark Rage or Force Rage is a power that involves channeling the dark side fueled by powerful emotions to bolster your physically capabilities, strength, speed etc. Droma has already demonstrated a predisposition to outbursts of rage and in an intense physical-orientated duel where Koon's telekinetic attacks are probably pissing him off I very much expect Droma will apply it. No we don't have any specific examples of its effects in regards to Ulic but we do have examples:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzdCdRPESps&t=4m37s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g&t=0m8s

 

 

etc. etc. you get the idea, immense and overwhelming displays of power. And as a powerful and talented Sith Lord I see no reason why Ulic cannot built up similar levels of strength. Now as I said before Koon's duel with Savage is inconclusive. The fight only went on for a few seconds and Koon failed to push Savage onto the back foot, he fared no better than Adi Gallia, who though ultimately overwhelmed by his strength manage to hold out. For all we know Savage could have flown into a rage and battered him down, or simply overpowered him in time.

 

Nor does Koon have his own form of dark rage to call upon, he's a Jedi, he doesn't used powerful emotions and he doesn't rely on overwhelming aggression. Its highly probably that Ulic is the stronger duelist.

 

Anyway you make good points about TK, but I feel this advantage is negated by Droma's remarkable speed and agility. As you said Koon isn't about speed but timing, but this makes him rather slow and deliberate. Its going to be quite obvious when he's about to throw a Force Push, or launch a projectile, which makes it easy for Droma to doge it.

 

We should also take into account that while no, Droma does not have advanced Force Abilities which he applies regularly, this is only because he dedicates himself totally to martial ability, something Koon does not do. And honestly I feel a greater dedication to this field, as opposed to spreading oneself out, will make Droma the superior duelist.

 

Ultimately I feel that when it comes down to it, Droma will be able to evade Koon's telekinetic attacks and then respond with an overwhelming counterattack. Even if Droma is injured it will only serve to fuel his dark rage and eventually Koon will tire and be overpowered as Droma combines strength with skill to take him down.

[tunewalker]

Concerning dark rage, I think you would be unwise to ignore it, we don't need a set of feats to make it relevant. Dark Rage or Force Rage is a power that involves channeling the dark side fueled by powerful emotions to bolster your physically capabilities, strength, speed etc. Droma has already demonstrated a predisposition to outbursts of rage and in an intense physical-orientated duel where Koon's telekinetic attacks are probably pissing him off I very much expect Droma will apply it. No we don't have any specific examples of its effects in regards to Ulic but we do have examples:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzdCdRPESps&t=4m37s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g&t=0m8s

 

 

etc. etc. you get the idea, immense and overwhelming displays of power. And as a powerful and talented Sith Lord I see no reason why Ulic cannot built up similar levels of strength. Now as I said before Koon's duel with Savage is inconclusive. The fight only went on for a few seconds and Koon failed to push Savage onto the back foot, he fared no better than Adi Gallia, who though ultimately overwhelmed by his strength manage to hold out. For all we know Savage could have flown into a rage and battered him down, or simply overpowered him in time.

 

Nor does Koon have his own form of dark rage to call upon, he's a Jedi, he doesn't used powerful emotions and he doesn't rely on overwhelming aggression. Its highly probably that Ulic is the stronger duelist.

 

Anyway you make good points about TK, but I feel this advantage is negated by Droma's remarkable speed and agility. As you said Koon isn't about speed but timing, but this makes him rather slow and deliberate. Its going to be quite obvious when he's about to throw a Force Push, or launch a projectile, which makes it easy for Droma to doge it.

 

We should also take into account that while no, Droma does not have advanced Force Abilities which he applies regularly, this is only because he dedicates himself totally to martial ability, something Koon does not do. And honestly I feel a greater dedication to this field, as opposed to spreading oneself out, will make Droma the superior duelist.

 

Ultimately I feel that when it comes down to it, Droma will be able to evade Koon's telekinetic attacks and then respond with an overwhelming counterattack. Even if Droma is injured it will only serve to fuel his dark rage and eventually Koon will tire and be overpowered as Droma combines strength with skill to take him down.

 

What did i say about power scaling.... Dark rage for one does not mean Dark rage for all, We need his feats not others feats, we can not assume anything.

[Beniboybling]

What did i say about power scaling.... Dark rage for one does not mean Dark rage for all, We need his feats not others feats, we can not assume anything.

Dark rage grossly bolsters a Force wielders physical capabilities beyond anything a Jedi of near equal power can achieve. Koon lacks this ability and so lacks that physical edge.

 

Its a power that gives him an edge in physical combat, to ignore it out of hand is just plain silly.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Anyway you make good points about TK, but I feel this advantage is negated by Droma's remarkable speed and agility. As you said Koon isn't about speed but timing, but this makes him rather slow and deliberate. Its going to be quite obvious when he's about to throw a Force Push, or launch a projectile, which makes it easy for Droma to doge it.

 

Ventress didn't, and she's faster than Ulic.

[tunewalker]

Dark rage grossly bolsters a Force wielders physical capabilities beyond anything a Jedi of near equal power can achieve. Koon lacks this ability and so lacks that physical edge.

 

Its a power that gives him an edge in physical combat, to ignore it out of hand is just plain silly.

 

You are assuming they are equal when he isn't under the effects of Dark Rage, I am assuming while under the effects they are equal, while not under the effects Koon has a slight advantage.

[Beniboybling]

Ventress didn't, and she's faster than Ulic.

That is true, but I probably should have specified that its the projectiles Ulic will be dodging not the Force Pushes dealt at close range. However those Ulic is much more capable of enduring.

[Beniboybling]

You are assuming they are equal when he isn't under the effects of Dark Rage, I am assuming while under the effects they are equal, while not under the effects Koon has a slight advantage.

Equal in what exactly? I'm not sure telling me what and what I don't assume is going to get us anywhere...

[tunewalker]

Equal in what exactly? I'm not sure telling me what and what I don't assume is going to get us anywhere...

 

Strength, your statement clearly showed you saying Ulic and Koon are equal strength with out Dark Rage, and that rage on top of it puts Droma ahead.

 

 

Edit "Dark rage grossly bolsters a Force wielders physical capabilities beyond anything a Jedi of near equal power can achieve."

Right here you are clearly assuming Koon and Ulic are near equal power in Force Bolster pre Dark Rage, but with out feats to back that up, we cant assume that.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

That is true, but I probably should have specified that its the projectiles Ulic will be dodging not the Force Pushes dealt at close range. However those Ulic is much more capable of enduring.

 

Fair enough, I agree. He does seem a bit slow in that regard. Mostly because most of his screen time where he did projectile-throwing was in the earlier TCW episodes, before the animation got really good.

 

Anywho, I'll think about this and make a decision on Monday.