Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

[Mallorik]

Out of curiosity, what existing MMO has all of the innovations you listed with none of the dumbed down features you don't want? If such a game exists for a true gamer, wouldn't they be spending their precious time there playing that game? And if such a game does not exist, what do you feel has to realistically happen for it to exist?

 

There is none, including wow. But I think you misread my post.

 

I said if a game is going to be a dumbed down theme park modern mmo then it should also have the quality of life innovations of modern mmos. I also said while I love the idea of the old "hardcore" mmo I don't have the time to play those anymore.

[GalacticKegger]

There is none, including wow. But I think you misread my post.

 

I said if a game is going to be a dumbed down theme park modern mmo then it should also have the quality of life innovations of modern mmos. I also said while I love the idea of the old "hardcore" mmo I don't have the time to play those anymore.

Points well taken. Today's devs face that exact quandary when trying to bridge gaps between too much & not enough, as well as simplicity vs. complexity, while also being back office secure and commercially successful. At issue I think is this: how much control over content and mechanics are MMO developers willing to give up to tinkerers and hobbyists?

 

In the "old days" hackers were few and far between. Today hacking is a $multi-billion industry. WoW for instance allows extensive use of addons. However, they also have a track record of accounts getting hacked by gold sellers. Probably a big reason why Bioware chose not to allow community access to their APIs.

 

Besides if today's games being dumbed down is a genuine concern, then why recommend the use of macros and addons that would dumb them down even further?

Edited February 21, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[CosmicKat]

Pariah would mean TOR was an outcast, or stands apart... I'll be honest, there isn't a good MMO on the market anymore, I played MMO's for nearly a decade, day in day out, like I actually played them, but there's not a good one currently available. I'm not speaking for everyone, but when a 30+ year Star Wars FANATIC/10+ year MMO freak (Me) cant bring himself to log in for more than 20 minutes a week in a Star Wars MMO, you failed.

 

It makes you wonder who they are making these games for doesn't it?

 

- They are subscription based and/or charge as you go... yet they make the entire game so short that any semi-regular player could "finish" them in a couple of months.

- They are using the internet to connect hundreds of thousands of players... yet they make the game 95% solo-only.

- They have the elements (players) to make them far more challenging and deep than solo RPG's... yet TOR is far easier than the solo Dragon Age:Origins and far less interactive and deep.

- They have continued revenue streams through subscriptions and Cash Shop purchases... yet can't seem to even match the size, frequency, and quality of $30 content expansions sold for solo games that have no ongoing revenue streams to pay for the development of those expansions.

- They keep trying to design console games for console gamers... on the PC?

- The MMO genre is the only gaming genre where each successive generation of game gets easier, shorter, faster, smaller, and has less features than those before it.

 

And most bizarrely...

 

- They seem to continually ignore the wants of the audience that plays MMO's in a futile attempt to appeal to people who don't play MMO's... and keep failing, and trying again, and failing, and trying again....

Edited February 21, 2014 by CosmicKat

[Lium]

It makes you wonder who they are making these games for doesn't it?

 

- They are subscription based and/or charge as you go... yet they make the entire game so short that any semi-regular player could "finish" them in a couple of months.

- They are using the internet to connect hundreds of thousands of players... yet they make the game 95% solo-only.

- They have the elements (players) to make them far more challenging and deep than solo RPG's... yet TOR is far easier than the solo Dragon Age:Origins and far less interactive and deep.

- They have continued revenue streams through subscriptions and Cash Shop purchases... yet can't seem to even match the size, frequency, and quality of $30 content expansions sold for solo games that have no ongoing revenue streams to pay for the development of those expansions.

- They keep trying to design console games for console gamers... on the PC?

- The MMO genre is the only gaming genre where each successive generation of game gets easier, shorter, faster, smaller, and has less features than those before it.

 

And most bizarrely...

 

- They seem to continually ignore the wants of the audience that plays MMO's in a futile attempt to appeal to people who don't play MMO's... and keep failing, and trying again, and failing, and trying again....

 

Like I said just a few posts above yours. Why aren't you playing TSW, EVE or Darkfall?

 

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

 

But that's my point. They exist. And what really grinds my gears are people that are constantly criticizing the SWTORs and the WoWs for being too easy and for appealing too much to casuals when the games these hardcore players claim to want are out there waiting for them, if they dare to play them.

 

Stop trying to make theme park games into something they are not or were never meant to be. They have a completely different target audience. "

Edited February 21, 2014 by Lium

[CosmicKat]

Like I said just a few posts above yours. Why aren't you playing TSW, EVE or Darkfall?

 

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

 

But that's my point. They exist. And what really grinds my gears are people that are constantly criticizing the SWTORs and the WoWs for being too easy and for appealing too much to casuals when the games these hardcore players claim to want are out there waiting for them, if they dare to play them.

 

Stop trying to make theme park games into something they are not or were never meant to be. They have a completely different target audience. "

 

I understand your argument but with the sole exception of WoW, every blatant "themepark" MMO has been a bust. They have a completely different target audience, and that audience is "WoW players" who have never shown any interest in anything but WoW.

 

If you are making a game for that audience and get it, fine. If you don't get it, and have no plausible chance at ever getting it, why not shift the focus to the people you didn't aim for originally?

[Lium]

I understand your argument but with the sole exception of WoW, every blatant "themepark" MMO has been a bust. They have a completely different target audience, and that audience is "WoW players" who have never shown any interest in anything but WoW.

 

If you are making a game for that audience and get it, fine. If you don't get it, and have no plausible chance at ever getting it, why not shift the focus to the people you didn't aim for originally?

 

Because shifting the focus has also proven to be a bust. As gamers, we have the power to dictate the market. It's called supply and demand, and we consistently vote with our feet and speak with our wallets. Those theme park games you said have been a bust actually bring in more money and are more popular than the hardcore sandbox games I listed.

 

If more people were actually playing TSW, EVE, and Darkfall instead of trying to make games like SWTOR more like them, you'd see way more sandbox games on the market that had a much higher degree of difficulty and challenge because they would be proven successful.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's a reason SWG went with the CU and the NGE. It's because the game was hemorrhaging subscribers due to the popularity of WoW. SOE didn't just wake up one morning and say, "Hey, let's completely change the way the game works and give it a totally new identity," for no reason. That right there is your perfect example of shifting focus to a completely different audience. And look what happened.

 

The truth is MMOers are like locusts. We go to one game, consume all of its content in a couple months or so, then move on to the next game and do the same thing there. All while lamenting how modern day games have been dumbed down and are too easy while seriously difficult games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall that require dedication and hard work to make your character powerful are literally daring you to try them.

 

I swear to god the MMO that you claim you want exists. There are three of them in fact. If you want a change of pace, go there. Get your teeth kicked in and get your Shawhank Redemption on repeatedly in both PvE and especially PvP. That's where that content is. SWTOR was never meant to be like that.

[CosmicKat]

...

 

The truth is MMOers are like locusts. We go to one game, consume all of its content in a couple months or so, then move on to the next game and do the same thing there. All while lamenting how modern day games have been dumbed down and are too easy while seriously difficult games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall that require dedication and hard work to make your character powerful are literally daring you to try them.

 

.

 

That's a common excuse but the reality is that if it's possible to entirely consume any MMO in a couple of months, then that MMO is a terribly designed MMO. A good solo RPG should hold your interest for longer than that.

[DarthTHC]

That's a common excuse but the reality is that if it's possible to entirely consume any MMO in a couple of months, then that MMO is a terribly designed MMO. A good solo RPG should hold your interest for longer than that.

 

I don't know, maybe it's a decent pattern / business model.

 

The locusts descend on an MMO and devour it, but in so doing they hopefully generate enough revenue to cover initial development.

 

After the locusts have devoured the content, they move on, but some percentage stays behind and keeps playing. That's what happened here. It was over 2,000,000 then under 400,000, now something slightly over that in subscribers and way over that in F2P + Preferred.

 

If the initial surge covers development and then enough stick around for the long haul, that seems like a business model that could be profitable.

[Arkerus]

That's a common excuse but the reality is that if it's possible to entirely consume any MMO in a couple of months, then that MMO is a terribly designed MMO. A good solo RPG should hold your interest for longer than that.

 

By what standards? Your standards? Oh ok. Just checking. Sorry, but you don't get to decide what a terrible game is for the rest of us. I happen to thoroughly enjoy this game.

 

And as for your comment above. ..

 

This game is a casual mass market game. That's the audience. Time for you to get over it. It's not a console game on the pc. It's a pc game. That premise is ridiculous.

 

Failing? Lol. I'd like to be the manager in charge of tor right now. They are making money. Not as much as wow but a lot nonetheless.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Arkerus

[CosmicKat]

I don't know, maybe it's a decent pattern / business model.

 

The locusts descend on an MMO and devour it, but in so doing they hopefully generate enough revenue to cover initial development.

 

After the locusts have devoured the content, they move on, but some percentage stays behind and keeps playing. That's what happened here. It was over 2,000,000 then under 400,000, now something slightly over that in subscribers and way over that in F2P + Preferred.

 

If the initial surge covers development and then enough stick around for the long haul, that seems like a business model that could be profitable.

 

This game has the advantage/crutch of an IP with a cult following. Many of that number are here only because it is Star Wars. They'd still be here if it was 1999 Everquest meets UO hardcore and they'd still be here if it was The Angry Lego Birds Sims:Star Wars Edition.

 

Yes there are "locusts". Many of these people play anything and everything and then leave no matter what. Designing a game for that ultra-casual crowd makes little sense. They'd try it anyway and leave anyway, regardless of how good or bad the game is. Many are looking for something more along the lines of "oldschool" UO, EQ, CoH, DAoC, etc. and not finding it. They make more sense to cater to, since they have shown the willingness to subscribe longterm. One player subscribing for one year equals 6 casual locusts.

[CosmicKat]

By what standards? Your standards? Oh ok. Just checking. Sorry, but you don't get to decide what a terrible game is for the rest of us. I happen to thoroughly enjoy this game.

 

And as for your comment above. ..

 

This game is a casual mass market game. That's the audience. Time for you to get over it. It's not a console game on the pc. It's a pc game. That premise is ridiculous.

 

Failing? Lol. I'd like to be the manager in charge of tor right now. They are making money. Not as much as wow but a lot nonetheless.

 

It's not a terrible game. It is a terribly designed product for the purposes of holding subscribers, which was the initial goal of its design.

[Arkerus]

This game has the advantage/crutch of an IP with a cult following. Many of that number are here only because it is Star Wars. They'd still be here if it was 1999 Everquest meets UO hardcore and they'd still be here if it was The Angry Lego Birds Sims:Star Wars Edition.

 

Yes there are "locusts". Many of these people play anything and everything and then leave no matter what. Designing a game for that ultra-casual crowd makes little sense. They'd try it anyway and leave anyway, regardless of how good or bad the game is. Many are looking for something more along the lines of "oldschool" UO, EQ, CoH, DAoC, etc. and not finding it. They make more sense to cater to, since they have shown the willingness to subscribe longterm. One player subscribing for one year equals 6 casual locusts.

 

They got you playing a game you consider 6/10.

[DarthTHC]

This game has the advantage/crutch of an IP with a cult following. Many of that number are here only because it is Star Wars. They'd still be here if it was 1999 Everquest meets UO hardcore and they'd still be here if it was The Angry Lego Birds Sims:Star Wars Edition.

 

Yes there are "locusts". Many of these people play anything and everything and then leave no matter what. Designing a game for that ultra-casual crowd makes little sense. They'd try it anyway and leave anyway, regardless of how good or bad the game is. Many are looking for something more along the lines of "oldschool" UO, EQ, CoH, DAoC, etc. and not finding it. They make more sense to cater to, since they have shown the willingness to subscribe longterm. One player subscribing for one year equals 6 casual locusts.

 

Not if the box costs 4x the monthly subscription fee. This game did it. GW2 charged for the box, too, so the locusts paid for development. I'm pretty sure ESO is charging for the box.

 

I see a pattern...

[Lium]

Like I said, those games exist whether you choose to look at them or not. They are not perfect, but no game is. However, they are specifically targeted for an audience that wants a more challenging, high risk/high reward sandbox game.

 

And I'm not just talking out of my rear. I play both SWTOR and TSW because I love them both and they both fulfill different gaming needs for me. I'm really not trying to be hyperbolic. The elements you claim to want are on the market right now if you want to try them out.

[CosmicKat]

They got you playing a game you consider 6/10.

 

Those of us playing it aren't the problem.

 

The 1.5 million who quit, and the unknown others who never tried it, are.

[CosmicKat]

Not if the box costs 4x the monthly subscription fee. This game did it. GW2 charged for the box, too, so the locusts paid for development. I'm pretty sure ESO is charging for the box.

 

I see a pattern...

 

Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons Online, SW:TOR, Everquest 2, etc... all attempted to emulate the WoW model. All forced into F2P to survive. I see a pattern.

[DarthTHC]

Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons Online, SW:TOR, Everquest 2, etc... all attempted to emulate the WoW model. All forced into F2P to survive. I see a pattern.

 

But they aren't surviving on F2P so your statement is incorrect. F2P doesn't help anything survive.

 

They had to go to micro-transactions to survive.

 

Plus of those you listed that I played, they follow the pattern I noted - locusts pay for the box and thus development costs, the percentage that stay behind keep the game rolling for as long as they do.

[CosmicKat]

But they aren't surviving on F2P so your statement is incorrect. F2P doesn't help anything survive.

 

They had to go to micro-transactions to survive.

 

Plus of those you listed that I played, they follow the pattern I noted - locusts pay for the box and thus development costs, the percentage that stay behind keep the game rolling for as long as they do.

 

Well yes, Free 2 Play is Newspeak that means micro-transactions, which is Newspeak meaning "transactions that are more than a subscription would be".

[DarthTHC]

Well yes, Free 2 Play is Newspeak that means micro-transactions, which is Newspeak meaning "transactions that are more than a subscription would be".

 

I don't know about that last part either. Of course, I never really tried it. I wonder if one could get a decent experience out of this game by going Preferred and spending under $15/month. I would have to think yes, though, because apparently something north of 1.5 million people do it regularly enough for EA to call them active players.

[CosmicKat]

I don't know about that last part either. Of course, I never really tried it. I wonder if one could get a decent experience out of this game by going Preferred and spending under $15/month. I would have to think yes, though, because apparently something north of 1.5 million people do it regularly enough for EA to call them active players.

 

I've played under both. Depends what you do.

 

If all you want to do is class stories and non-endgame... you can easily do all of it without ever paying a cent. Only differences you'll see are slightly slower XP gain (you'll still easily overlevel if doing all quests) and some quest rewards unavailable (generally all vendor trash anyway). They give away way too much.

 

If you are Roleplayer... You will one day open your emote list to "nod" at someone. You'll find you can't do that (or 90% of all other emotes) without paying extra. Then you'll look on the Cartel Market to buy it. Then you'll discover you can't buy it, but you can buy a Gambling Bag with a 0.034% chance of getting that emote. Then you'll think "that's insane" and you'll look on the GTN. It will either not be there, or the price will be higher than the credit limit of a Preferred player. You'll find dozens upon dozens of little things like this, and the annoyance-o-meter will be at 11.

[Mallorik]

Points well taken. Today's devs face that exact quandary when trying to bridge gaps between too much & not enough, as well as simplicity vs. complexity, while also being back office secure and commercially successful. At issue I think is this: how much control over content and mechanics are MMO developers willing to give up to tinkerers and hobbyists?

 

In the "old days" hackers were few and far between. Today hacking is a $multi-billion industry. WoW for instance allows extensive use of addons. However, they also have a track record of accounts getting hacked by gold sellers. Probably a big reason why Bioware chose not to allow community access to their APIs.

 

Besides if today's games being dumbed down is a genuine concern, then why recommend the use of macros and addons that would dumb them down even further?

 

Well first off a game that allows addons has no more exposure to hackers than one that doesn't, its just not how it works and that is not an opinion it is an absolute fact. The biggest reason there are far more wow accounts hacked than swtor is kind of obvious, why would anyone hack a swtor account? Selling gold in wow is a big money maker, swtor not so much. Personally im shocked and it makes me fell better about the future of swtor when I see gold seller spam on fleet lol. And 99.9% if any of those accounts aren't actually "hacked" they are stolen through password stealing scams like fake emails and using a gold selling service.

 

I don't really know why you keep saying the dumbing down of mmos is a big concern to me when Ive said atleast twice now directly to you that it was not.

 

And I don't consider macros and addons "dumbing down" a game anyway, just like I don't think power steering in a car dumbs it down or a touch screen on a cell phone dumbs it down. Daoc and Eq1 had macros and addons, neither of them were dumbed down even close to modern mmos, including swtor which has neither.

[Mallorik]

They got you playing a game you consider 6/10.

 

Yeah and if you look at her post she probably explains the exact reason why, its STAR WARS. I know if this game wasn't star wars I would have not even bought the box after playing in beta. How many people here would be playing this game if it wasn't star wars? you don't have to answer here just be truthful with yourself.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mallorik

[Smuglebunny]

If this game was not "Star Wars" It would be LONG since shut down. The embarrassment the developers of this game should be feeling is enormous. How will they get jobs in the future? Leave it off the resume I guess. With 2.7 I have decided to stop both paying for and playing the game. I have about 2 weeks of sub left then im done forever due to the absolute moron changes the devs are making. It sickens me that such a potentialy good game wasbuggered at every possible turn. By the most inhumanly moronic changes at every turn. Lets not forget in addition to how they make the game FAR FAR worst with each update they NEVER EVER EVER fix the bugs the STILL EXIST FROM LAUNCH LAUNCH LAUNCH?!!?!?!?!?!

 

It is in fact the pariah and full embarrassment of the MMO world.

I suggest shutting it down and making a new game.

 

The only power I have is to stop paying so. I am.

[Arkerus]

Yeah and if you look at her post she probably explains the exact reason why, its STAR WARS. I know if this game wasn't star wars I would have not even bought the box after playing in beta. How many people here would be playing this game if it wasn't star wars? you don't have to answer here just be truthful with yourself.

 

anyone who hates the gameplay but plays because its Star Wars needs to um...check themselves.

[Arkerus]

Well first off a game that allows addons has no more exposure to hackers than one that doesn't, its just not how it works and that is not an opinion it is an absolute fact. The biggest reason there are far more wow accounts hacked than swtor is kind of obvious, why would anyone hack a swtor account? Selling gold in wow is a big money maker, swtor not so much. Personally im shocked and it makes me fell better about the future of swtor when I see gold seller spam on fleet lol. And 99.9% if any of those accounts aren't actually "hacked" they are stolen through password stealing scams like fake emails and using a gold selling service.

 

I don't really know why you keep saying the dumbing down of mmos is a big concern to me when Ive said atleast twice now directly to you that it was not.

 

And I don't consider macros and addons "dumbing down" a game anyway, just like I don't think power steering in a car dumbs it down or a touch screen on a cell phone dumbs it down. Daoc and Eq1 had macros and addons, neither of them were dumbed down even close to modern mmos, including swtor which has neither.

 

When you constantly make the point that its a dumbed down MMO and then claim it doesn't matter to you...its directly contradictory.