MarcheseAMM Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Are you guys putting Vitiate>Caedus on the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 He does. I take full credit for finding the quote then sharing it with people on KMC. Where's it from? I'm remembering something similar in Dark Nest, but that might be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Where's it from? I'm remembering something similar in Dark Nest, but that might be something else. I forget exactly. I recall Jacen and Jaina running from Star Destroyer fire from space and Jacen absorbs the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 What are Christmas vouchers for? And yes I do still have my Caedus vs Sith Emperor write up (good times ) but I want primary source dangabit! Well, I could pick up the series, but I'm not sure I have the finances for it. The First National Bank of Aurbere is a bit dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I forget exactly. I recall Jacen and Jaina running from Star Destroyer fire from space and Jacen absorbs the fire. Guess I'll check Dark Nest. I was meaning to read it for other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) OK so I just finished SoR and defeated Shadow Revan etc. and can know understand peoples concerns over game mechanics. I think that's probably something we can begin to discuss now and perhaps reach consensus on. So two things I feel are important. 1. Which confrontation is canon? Solo or OPS? Solo would include a Republic or Imperial Hero, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, Jakarro and Theron Shan. Whereas OPS would include 8 Republic/Imperial heroes. Both are to be honest equally possible, as the event of each class being on Yavin 4 at the time of Revan's defeat being a possibility, if not canonical. But the involvement of the aforementioned group is equally possible canonically. 2. Revan's incapacitation feat, in which he binds Marr, Shan, Beniko, etc. canon or not canon? It is strictly a game mechanic that could be argued to be there solely for the purpose of the game, but is also there as a display of power. I also feel there are issues in regards to Revan's power level in general. Revan claims that divided they are weaker, and yet in combined form he is taken down by a much smaller and less powerful strike team. Is it therefore possible that Revan could have been drawing on the dark side nexuses that surround the temples to amplify his power? And if so should Foundry Revan be considered a more accurate depiction? Furthermore if Revan has experienced bodily death, does that mean that his shadow form is a quasi Sith spirit and beyond that of mortal capabilities? Edited January 4, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 OK so I just finished SoR and defeated Shadow Revan etc. and can know understand peoples concerns over game mechanics. I think that's probably something we can begin to discuss now and perhaps reach consensus on. So two things I feel are important. 1. Which confrontation is canon? Solo or OPS? Solo would include a Republic or Imperial Hero, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, Jakarro and Theron Shan. Whereas OPS would include 8 Republic/Imperial heroes. Both are to be honest equally possible, as the event of each class being on Yavin 4 at the time of Revan's defeat being a possibility, if not canonical. But the involvement of the aforementioned group is equally possible canonically. 2. Revan's incapacitation feat, in which he binds Marr, Shan, Beniko, etc. canon or not canon? It is strictly a game mechanic that could be argued to be there solely for the purpose of the game, but is also there as a display of power. I also feel there are issues in regards to Revan's power level in general. Revan claims that divided they are weaker, and yet in combined form he is taken down by a much smaller and less powerful strike team. Is it therefore possible that Revan could have been drawing on the dark side nexuses that surround the temples to amplify his power? And if so should Foundry Revan be considered a more accurate depiction? Furthermore if Revan has experienced bodily death, does that mean that his shadow form is a quasi Sith spirit and beyond that of mortal capabilities? 1. I always saw Solo mode as the more accurate representation. 2. The mechanics of that display make absolutely no sense from a canonical view. The binding is purely a game mechanic because you have to use something that is there purely for the game in order to free them, unless you believe Revan was just bleeding out spheres of pure Force energy that could then be collected and used to cancel out his hold over the team. I believe Foundry Revan or Revan Revan (Redundant, much?) to be him at his strongest. And I also believe that he benefited from the nexus on Yavin 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He doesn't die at the end of the ops version, it stands to reason both happened. Just not protags in the ops fight. As for the mechanics, it kind of makes sense? Revan was throwing immunity bubbles out, the same kind we saw him use on the foundry. Since Spirit!Revan can affect the physical plane, it's possible he was trying to aid them. People say game mechanics are there to enhance the game. Sorry but that's just stupid. Fights in novels are there to "enhance" the novel, the thing would be **** if the main character disarmed the villain in two hits and decapitated him, but unleashing a wall of light or calling on two sides of the force makes for interesting reading. Same goes for the films, Palpatine shooting lightning was stupid back during those times, and he could have used Luke's lightsaber to kill him faster, but lightning made it dramatic and "enhanced" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 He doesn't die at the end of the ops version, it stands to reason both happened. Just not protags in the ops fight. As for the mechanics, it kind of makes sense? Revan was throwing immunity bubbles out, the same kind we saw him use on the foundry. Since Spirit!Revan can affect the physical plane, it's possible he was trying to aid them. People say game mechanics are there to enhance the game. Sorry but that's just stupid. Fights in novels are there to "enhance" the novel, the thing would be **** if the main character disarmed the villain in two hits and decapitated him, but unleashing a wall of light or calling on two sides of the force makes for interesting reading. Same goes for the films, Palpatine shooting lightning was stupid back during those times, and he could have used Luke's lightsaber to kill him faster, but lightning made it dramatic and "enhanced" it.Its not a question of enhancing, its a question of it being there purely for the purposes of the game. If a game mechanic can be defined in such a way, it should be considered non-canonical. For example, Marek's ability to disintegrate his targets in game is merely there to make the game T rated, because in reality all Marek was capable of was blowing them into fleshy, bloody pieces, not that there is much difference. If feel we should begin by defining what this power actually was from an in-lore perspective, if we can't, its non-canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Its not a question of enhancing, its a question of it being there purely for the purposes of the game. If a game mechanic can be defined in such a way, it should be considered non-canonical. For example, Marek's ability to disintegrate his targets in game is merely there to make the game T rated, because in reality all Marek was capable of was blowing them into fleshy, bloody pieces, not that there is much difference. If feel we should begin by defining what this power actually was from an in-lore perspective, if we can't, its non-canon. Well there was a cinematic of him actually doing that, so... But that's completely different anyway. Force pull to take people Into the middle, force wave sends them out, force whirlwind keeps them in place. Sends out force destruction while he's in his mini bubble. Then Light!Revan starts throwing out protection bubbles to save the people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 He doesn't die at the end of the ops version, it stands to reason both happened. Just not protags in the ops fight. As for the mechanics, it kind of makes sense? Revan was throwing immunity bubbles out, the same kind we saw him use on the foundry. Since Spirit!Revan can affect the physical plane, it's possible he was trying to aid them. People say game mechanics are there to enhance the game. Sorry but that's just stupid. Fights in novels are there to "enhance" the novel, the thing would be **** if the main character disarmed the villain in two hits and decapitated him, but unleashing a wall of light or calling on two sides of the force makes for interesting reading. Same goes for the films, Palpatine shooting lightning was stupid back during those times, and he could have used Luke's lightsaber to kill him faster, but lightning made it dramatic and "enhanced" it. Except I'm pretty sure those spheres are projected from Dark Revan, and I'm also pretty sure that the two were not occupying the same body at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Except I'm pretty sure those spheres are projected from Dark Revan, and I'm also pretty sure that the two were not occupying the same body at the time. Nope, they just appear. The spheres coming from Revan are force destruction spheres. Much faster, and they hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Nope, they just appear. The spheres coming from Revan are force destruction spheres. Much faster, and they hurt. Well how does Spirit Revan project Dark Side energy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Revan conversation without me... what??? Also yes, Spirit Revan was aiding the strike team on the TOS OPS: "I am with you. Be strong... I am doing all that I can...." --Spirit Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Force pull to take people Into the middle, force wave sends them out, force whirlwind keeps them in place. Sends out force destruction while he's in his mini bubble. Then Light!Revan starts throwing out protection bubbles to save the people... This. Revan's display of Force Destruction here was pretty insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Alright, let's say that Force Destruction phase is actually canon. Why wasn't the present player character affected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Alright, let's say that Force Destruction phase is actually canon. Why wasn't the present player character affected? This seems to be among the most likely possibilities: 1.) Revan was a ***** and wanted the Wrath to experience his powers first-hand. - or - 2.) Spirit defended the Wrath from the attack, hoping he will be able to free the others. Edited January 4, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) OK so my understanding of TOR game mechanics is that they often exaggerate abilities to make them larger and longer in scope for the purposes of the game, namely the fact that battles, especially boss battles, are exceptionally lengthy and the player needs something to keep them busy as a result of that. There is also general player immunity, they have exaggerated endurance powers and are immune/resistant to what "IRL" would normally incapacitate the target, e.g. being hit by a flying meteor. Feats have to be adapt to reflect this. Applying this to Revan, we have to take for example his meteor feat with a pinch of salt. Because the only reason so many meteors were thrown over such a large amount of time was to keep the player occupied. If it had been just a handful, it wouldn't have been enough to occupy the player in the scope of the marathon duel game mechanic. Same applies to the incapacitation feat, the only reason Revan was made to stun them for so long, was so the player could be kept occupied doing whatever he did with those orb thingies and ultimately the duration of the effect was entirely dependent on how long it took for the player to do this. I myself took ages lawls. Basically I only feel we can take as canon what cannot be justified my game mechanics in any way. For example, Revan did throw space rocks, because the game mechanics did not demand rocks for this AOE effect, it could have been anything. Revan also did incapacitate all of the strike team because it was not necessary for the mechanic to work, he could have stunned one or two at random intervals and it would have still worked. Edited January 4, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Incorrect, the meteor feat is canonically not game mechanics in the same context as every other attack in the game. It is scripted to the actual level itself, not to Revan's character, and should therefore be regarded as canon as the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Incorrect, the meteor feat is canonically not game mechanics in the same context as every other attack in the game. It is scripted to the actual level itself, not to Revan's character, and should therefore be regarded as canon as the map.Its scope and size is there solely for the purposes of the game, so its a game mechanic, I fail to see what value a "scripted" anything has. Since when are scripted attacks always canon, where is this stated? Edited January 4, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This seems to be among the most likely possibilities: 1.) Revan was a ***** and wanted the Wrath to experience his powers first-hand. - or - 2.) Spirit defended the Wrath from the attack, hoping he will be able to free the others. One is most likely because nothing indicates that the Spirit protected him, like a buff or something as far as I'm aware. More proof that Eval Revan is a massive moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 One is most likely because nothing indicates that the Spirit protected him, like a buff or something as far as I'm aware. More proof that Eval Revan is a massive moron. More like totally thinking he is the ****: "I should have known the Empire's lapdogs would find their way to Rishi, try to seek me out. You're wasting your time." "Theron Shan's fate doesn't matter. Neither does yours. I'm changing the fate of the galaxy itself." "I understand how you might see it that way from your narrow point of view. "Too bad you won't be around to see the results for yourself. Actually, I doubt I'll ever see you again. " "I suppose I shouldn't expect a mere soldier to understand the bigger picture." "You hide behind pointless chatter. Death will come for you, no matter how sarcastically you face it." "Then you are blind to the truth as well." "I'm not one of your pathetic bounties. Too much is at stake." "You're impossible." "You don't know what you're talking about." "You're so naive, Wrath. You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become." "Bring as many fools as you like. You won't stop what must be done!" "You understand nothing!" "You are all fools!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Alright, let's say that Force Destruction phase is actually canon. Why wasn't the present player character affected?Ant's explanations aren't particularly logical, but one explanation is that he just wasn't strong enough. That said it does bring the feat into question, as it could be argued that the only reason Revan incapacitated all the NPCs was to put the player in a position to interact with the orbs alone. It does seem pretty contrived. Edited January 4, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Guys, everything in these boss fights is scripted in some way. The only issue is determining is the event that occurred is a mechanic of the game or not. Revan throwing all of those asteroids is, especially when the scope of the battle is taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 That said it does bring the feat into question, as it could be argued that the only reason Revan incapacitated all the NPCs was to put the player in a position to interact with the orbs alone. It does seem pretty contrived. That makes probably less sense then Fay>Mortis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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