The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

[Beniboybling]

And its not really through greater understanding. its through affinity, he feels it he doesnt understand it better then other things.... he feels it better his understanding is equal, his bodies feel and ability to access it is better.

 

Ok so I should start argueing that Leia was Equal to her brother because of her Mental powers were equal or greater then his.

 

I should Argue that Corran Horn had equal Control to Yoda thanks to his ACHIEVED power with Tutaminis and also should argue that he is potentially one of the strongest people here in Alter because of his power achieved with the Mind Trick skill thanks to his affinity for it.

 

Heck I am almost sure that Leia should be above Kyp Durron if we want to start talking about achieved power with powers that people have an affinity for, because she had better Mind trick abilities as well and mental barriers then Kyp did and aguably equal or stronger Wave based TK.

 

 

Edit: see edit above why "some powers require knowledge and other raw power" is BS.

Neither Kun nor Force Blast is mentioned in this post, so apologies but I won't be replying.

 

This circumstantial evidence will get us nowhere, because its just that, circumstantial.

 

Heck I don't even really know how this is relevant anymore.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I certainly hope this current argument won't delay our discussion on the lightsaber duelist lists for too long...

[Beniboybling]

I certainly hope this current argument won't delay our discussion on the lightsaber duelist lists for too long...

Its a closed article as far as I'm concerned, a majority is a majority and even if we accept Sith Sorcery as inconclusive - which if its going to cause such a fuss I might just do - Kun still wins.

 

But yeah, further thoughts on Kenobi are encouraged, I'll re-review the evidence right now.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Its a closed article as far as I'm concerned, a majority is a majority and even if we accept Sith Sorcery as inconclusive - which if its going to cause such a fuss I might just do - Kun still wins.

 

But yeah, further thoughts on Kenobi are encouraged, I'll re-review the evidence right now.

 

Alright, further thoughts on Kenobi. I still believe that Saba isn't as powerful as Kenobi in Alter. Yes, she used the Force on her master, but I don't think this alone should place her above Kenobi, who has displayed greater variety and power in other areas of telekinesis besides attacking Force users than Saba has.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, further thoughts on Kenobi. I still believe that Saba isn't as powerful as Kenobi in Alter. Yes, she used the Force on her master, but I don't think this alone should place her above Kenobi, who has displayed greater variety and power in other areas of telekinesis besides attacking Force users than Saba has.

I admit your arguments are compelling...

 

But for a moment should we perhaps consider other candidates, namely Nomi Sunrider?

 

EDIT: I might add Odan-Urr and Thon to that list, namely Exar Kun's contemporaries.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I admit your arguments are compelling...

 

But for a moment should we perhaps consider other candidates, namely Nomi Sunrider?

 

EDIT: I might add Odan-Urr and Thon to that list, namely Exar Kun's contemporaries.

 

Of course they are.

 

I'm not sure about those names, though. But I don't have a lot of concrete information on them outside of some of the comics they appeared in.

[Beniboybling]

Of course they are.

 

I'm not sure about those names, though. But I don't have a lot of concrete information on them outside of some of the comics they appeared in.

Well if I recall many of them were strong nominations for this list originally. They all possess very potent abilities in terms of sever Force, Wall of Light, Battle Meditation etc. and I'm sure they have so accolades.

 

I just feel that if we are prepared to put Kenobi on this list, then we should consider these heavy weights first.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Well if I recall many of them were strong nominations for this list originally. They all possess very potent abilities in terms of sever Force, Wall of Light, Battle Meditation etc. and I'm sure they have so accolades.

 

I just feel that if we are prepared to put Kenobi on this list, then we should consider these heavy weights first.

 

Like I said, I don't have a ton of information on them at this time. But they are noteworthy candidates for sure.

[Beniboybling]

Like I said, I don't have a ton of information on them at this time. But they are noteworthy candidates for sure.

Wookieepedia is your friend.

[Aurbere]

Wookieepedia is your friend.

 

Do I have to?

[Beniboybling]

Do I have to?

[Trooperclay]

 

hahaha

[tunewalker]

Neither Kun nor Force Blast is mentioned in this post, so apologies but I won't be replying.

 

This circumstantial evidence will get us nowhere, because its just that, circumstantial.

 

Heck I don't even really know how this is relevant anymore.

 

The fact that you dont know how its relevant is the problem.

 

 

But if we are going to use what they achieved including stuff they only achieved through affinity I suggest opening an article and suggestion about putting Leia on this list.

 

Control: She has arguably the Strongest Mental Barriers in the NJO being able to block Alema Rar from doing any kind of mind control to her, something Alema Successfully did to a distracted Luke Skywalker. In addition her abilities with Force Valor and physical Force enhancements were strong enough to keep up with and/or BEAT people much younger then her. Thus her Force speed being fast enough to not overcome her age and equal those younger people but also over take them. Several of these people were full fledged knights and 1 was the apprentice to Caedus thus had her own record of being faster then most her age.

 

 

Sense: Learning from Saba she could sense concealed targets on the other side of planets with no difficulty.

 

 

Alter: Again Stronger Mind Tricks then Master Luke himself in addition to this her TK was strong enough to hold the Falcon together upon re-entry and she had some of the strongest Wave based TK in the NJO. Not to mention her wall of Light ability that she used to prevent PALPS from enterying Anakin and her gifted use of Battle Melds.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Firstly I have been reading very closely what you have said, and I have tried my best to understand the full scope of your point and I feel that I do. But I reach a different conclusion. However this argument you are bringing up is brand new, of that I am sure.

 

Secondly I accepted the importance of understanding/knowledge long ago, and I'd appreciate it if you in turn paid close attention to the arguments I am making. To quote myself:

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself. Though that is a metaphorical estimate.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

Now I am sure if we both keep cool heads there will be no further communication issues on either end.

 

Now, to address this new point. Which, as you said, is totally exclusive of your arguments concerning the notion that affinity gives one knowledge and understanding of the subject. Indeed we are now talking about the properties of the powers itself - which again has nothing to do with Sith Sorcery being an innate power.

 

Anyway a valid point, but I also feel that there is a threshold if you will were TK powers become more dominated by raw dark side energy than kinetic energy. That is why I brought up Force Destruction, a dark side power defined in terms of an outburst of dark side energy, in this case taking on a red aura. And looking at Marek's expression of this power the energy is again visible, this time taking the form of a blue aura. We might also refer to Satele Shan blasting Malgus, again recall the blue aura. And I don't think this is aesthetic, I think there comes a point were a TK attack becomes so powerful than it surpasses the capabilities of the kinetic energy around it (air can only do so much) and draws far more heavily, almost exclusively, on the Force, manifesting as tangible Force energy.

 

So in that sense I'd say a TK attack capable of vaporizing opponents would be at least 80% Force Energy and therefore on the same level of potency as a raw blast of dark side energy.

 

Now yes I admit that it still not as pure as a raw blast of Force energy, which is opaque among other things. But we must remember that kinetic energy, or rather the energy exerted manipulating that energy, is not a pure waste product, its an near equivalent exchange - Force energy being trade for kinetic energy. So that 20% of kinetic energy isn't null and void, more like worth 10% if not more of Force energy. So we are dealing with 90% or higher here.

 

This is why I feel that a comparison can be made. But I admit in my initial analysis that its tenuous, they are not the same, and you have a fair point, no matter how you spin it. And we should take that into account. But I made the comparison because I did not want to dismiss what in the end is a valid demonstration of Kun's power, he may be only able to tap into power of such levels with sorcery, but is still all him.

 

And even then, Vader hasn't vaporized anyone with a Force Wave, we see him using Force Waves in the Ghost Prison, there bodies aren't even torn apart a la Sidious, not injuries of that kind. Regardless of fact that a Force Blast will always have an edge over any TK attack, the fact that Vader isn't even on that level makes it irrelevant.

 

Basically I feel he still gets the edge, though I am willing to admit the comparison is inconclusive.

 

Ok now that I am awake... first thing is first.

 

 

No, I do not believe the Force properties change as the level of the wave goes up. Different properties would suggest a different power. Remeber when air particles move fast enough they would let off heat, this would allow you to "see" these air particles as the air around might glow from said heat. In this picture http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/herold08/media/Star-Wars---Darth-Vader-And-The-Ghost-Prison------digital---Cypher-Empire5-Page8.jpg.html It looks like electrical sparks, which if we all know how Lightning in Real Life is created its Electrical discharge from excited Air particles. This just means he has added enough energy to the air particles to cause them to become unstable and let off electrical discharges.

 

Further more as far as I understand it all of these people hit by this while not dismembered in any way were all killed by it. Second if I recall correctly Galen DID NOT disintigrate those people in the book but dismembered them and it was shown as disintigration for a less disturbing visual. Also look at the second panel of that shot, he clearly hits and kills over 3 dozen people in just what we see on screen. Further more as we can see in the original shot the people we see in Panel 2 are ONLY in his frontal around 45 degree arc. He hits everyone in his Frontal 160 degree arc, but he is still expending energy for the other 200 degree back that hits no one and is back there, in addition to energy spent on the upwards arc where again no one is. Even in the panel with the 3 dozen people he is killing there is a lot of empty space. If we were to just take the arc that killed 36 people and concentrate that onto a single person it would be enough to disintigrate them. If we were then to take the rest of the arc it would be enough to disintigrate 3 or 4 people in succession with ease.

 

To go even further, you suggest that those 12 knights had their barriers 100% ripped through by Kun thus they all took the full brunt of his attack other wise they would not have been knocked unconcious. If this is the case then his TK feat is weaker then Vader's knocking 12 people unconcious does not in any way equal killing MORE THEN 36 people.

 

If it is closer to how I believed it was that those 12 knights barriers defended them enough that it didnt kill them and instead just knocked them unconcious then we are again looking at Vader with the greater scope by showing him thrashing Force Sensitives around and or blowing all the way through their barriers and Chocking them out. Either way Vader wins.

 

 

Thats the thing, without sorcery (or even with it now) Vader has both greater showing of Scope and greater showing of refinement in all the powers that Vader and Kun share. Last I checked we did try and compare people using those parametters because its the most clear way to see power with out any kind of confusion as to what or how much power it takes for a TK ability vs a Force Lightning ability and so forth.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[ZahirS]

Were the hell is Anakin Skywalker, not Vader...Anakin

[LadyKulvax]

Actually he killed and incapacitated the Jedi and this wasn't some channelled or heavily focused attack either, he brushed past Ulic whom seemed to believe that they didn't stand a chance and then Kun stretched out one hand and ragdolled all of them with a Force Wave, he didn't exactly seem to be putting much effort at all into his attack.

 

But again, Kun has done much more, like y'know effortlessly bypassing the defenses of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy Odan-Urr and dominating him even toying with him.

 

But I certainly do find it humorous that you not only call foul on anything to do with Kun in Jedi Academy but also call foul on his mastery of Sorcery, what next? anything that Vader doesn't have knowledge of, Kun isn't allowed to have as a valid argument?

 

The nerfbatting here is ludicrous, we get it, you think Vader is more powerful and you will attempt to invalidate anything that suggests Kun > Vader.

 

This debate has been had again and again but when you don't nerfbat Kun the winner is clear, something you refuse to acknowledge.

[tunewalker]

Actually he killed and incapacitated the Jedi and this wasn't some channelled or heavily focused attack either, he brushed past Ulic whom seemed to believe that they didn't stand a chance and then Kun stretched out one hand and ragdolled all of them with a Force Wave, he didn't exactly seem to be putting much effort at all into his attack.

 

But again, Kun has done much more, like y'know effortlessly bypassing the defenses of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy Odan-Urr and dominating him even toying with him.

 

But I certainly do find it humorous that you not only call foul on anything to do with Kun in Jedi Academy but also call foul on his mastery of Sorcery, what next? anything that Vader doesn't have knowledge of, Kun isn't allowed to have as a valid argument?

 

The nerfbatting here is ludicrous, we get it, you think Vader is more powerful and you will attempt to invalidate anything that suggests Kun > Vader.

 

This debate has been had again and again but when you don't nerfbat Kun the winner is clear, something you refuse to acknowledge.

 

Not nerf batting. Sorcery is being over blown, and Academy is not Kun as a person its Kun as an Entity which specifially have already been stated to be disallowed for these lists. There is no Nerf batting, hell originally we put Vader above Kun.... there was a reason and it wasnt nerf batting.

 

And Yes the point is to compare what BOTH VADER AND KUN have, what neither have affinity for, this is the easiest form of comparison for "Power" as the difference between their abilities is purely connection to the force + UNdersanding of the Force and has no special circumstances what so ever. It is the purest form of comparison..

 

 

I am not going well Vader had cloaking and to my knowledge Kun didnt so Vader is better because Kun cant cloak, because that would be a stupid arguement. Same with Force Protection an even more advanced version of Force Shield that Kun didnt have, Still not using it because Kun didnt have it thus a fair comparison can not be made there.

 

Not using the endurance really because that can be attributed to his suit so again not a fair comparison.

 

The purest and greatest form of comparison is comparing what they have in common. What they both knew as the only difference between the 2 in those regards is their Power. And in a thread titled "the REAL most Powerful" I am under the impression that's what matters.

Edited May 31, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Okay why don't we do Zannah and then strip away her Sorcery, oh wait...

 

Kun specailised in Sorcery and Vader specailised in telekinetic combat, so just because Vader can't use Sorcery we should compare their TK and 'classic' feats... and ignore Kun's speciality, because that is fair and doesn't shift the goal posts at all

[Aurbere]

Were the hell is Anakin Skywalker, not Vader...Anakin

 

Vader is Anakin's prime, so that's who we're going for.

[tunewalker]

Okay why don't we do Zannah and then strip away her Sorcery, oh wait...

 

Kun specailised in Sorcery and Vader specailised in telekinetic combat, so just because Vader can't use Sorcery we should compare their TK and 'classic' feats... and ignore Kun's speciality, because that is fair and doesn't shift the goal posts at all

 

This is true, thus we may need to look else where, What about telepathy, or another power they both had but neither really specialized in. Its easier that way.

 

Also Look at my comparison between the Sorcery Kun used and Vader's TK wave, or even the comparison between Kun's blasts and his own TK wave. I Personally believe it would have taken him just as much energy to achieve what he did with his blasts as it took him to achieve what he did with his waves. The blasts being more concentrated energy and the Waves being wider and more dispersed. Over all energy is the same, just the nature and concentration of it being different.

 

 

Further more to be clear, I have stopped the whole "no use sorcery" arguement about 2 arguements back now for the most part, because I think I understand beni's point (and yours) on that matter, but thats where the point about the dispersed energy vs concentrated came into play pointing out that the blasts are kind of hard to quantify to begin with and could in fact potentially be no better then Kun's own TK feats any way do to the different nature of the energies causing different affects.

 

 

Edit: to be clear I am trying to look broader then Kun sorcery vs Vader TK or Vader TK vs Kun TK..... as their other powers the broader ones they also share are another much better indication of where they sit.

Edited May 31, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Honestly, I don't feel that Exar Kun vs. Vader is clear cut, but I do feel that Exar Kun is more powerful. I do believe that telekinesis falls in Vader's favor, but most of everything else goes to Kun. Nor do I feel that I need to elaborate since Rayla has done that and then some (not that I could do it any better).

 

So, yeah, that's how I feel. Now, can we move on?

[tunewalker]

Honestly, I don't feel that Exar Kun vs. Vader is clear cut, but I do feel that Exar Kun is more powerful. I do believe that telekinesis falls in Vader's favor, but most of everything else goes to Kun. Nor do I feel that I need to elaborate since Rayla has done that and then some (not that I could do it any better).

 

So, yeah, that's how I feel. Now, can we move on?

 

Everything else? could you elaborate? Last I checked Beni gave Vader the advantage in Control, they Tied in Senses and Vader had the advantage in Telepathy and Shield based Force powers, thus I dont know about this "every thing else" catagory that you speak of since as far as I am aware that catagory has been leaning in Vader's corner for a while. Thats the whole reason I am argueing this.

Edited May 31, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Everything else? could you elaborate? Last I checked Beni gave Vader the advantage in Control, they Tied in Senses and Vader had the advantage in Telepathy and Shield based Force powers, thus I dont know about this "every thing else" catagory.

 

Speaking about Alter, specifically.

[tunewalker]

Speaking about Alter, specifically.

 

Telepathy, Force based shields these are alter.

Edited May 31, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Telepathy, Force based shields these are alter.

 

Suppose I should ask if we are considering Kun's spirit feats as well. I feel that Rayla made some good points in why we should. So are we, did I miss anything about that?