The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

[Beniboybling]

Don't worry I'm planning to reboot this when the time comes.

 

Honestly I think I'm taking on too many projects LOL.

[Aurbere]

Don't worry I'm planning to reboot this when the time comes.

 

Honestly I think I'm taking on too many projects LOL.

 

I know what you mean lol.

[cs_zoltan]

I think Vitiate should be above Luke on the most powerful force user ever list.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nah, just kidding. It was just a shameless bump

[Beniboybling]

I hand plans to reboot this project in the near future, but if anyone has further thoughts on the current article feel free.

 

For reference here is Aubere's analysis of Kenobi.

[Aurbere]

I don't really have much else to say on the Kenobi front. I used up most of my good stuff.

[Beniboybling]

OK I'm officially bumping this for final thoughts, specifically on Article 7 - Saba vs Kenobi - which I'll be doing a proper comparison of shortly, and generally any other final suggestions people might have on the Force User lists.

 

After that is said and done we can move on with lightsaber duelists, which I'll be conducting in a new thread.

[tunewalker]

OK I'm officially bumping this for final thoughts, specifically on Article 7 - Saba vs Kenobi - which I'll be doing a proper comparison of shortly, and generally any other final suggestions people might have on the Force User lists.

 

After that is said and done we can move on with lightsaber duelists, which I'll be conducting in a new thread.

 

I dont know about that one it could go either way to me.

 

That being said I personally think we need to re-examine Kun and Vader again.

 

Vader we already talked about having better control then Kun in the original analysis that you had (back on page 42 I think it was) and I dont recall how we judged their senses, but I do believe we gave Kun the edge in Alter, but I feel that was almost only done do to Kun's sorcery, which he had innate talent in. It would be like saying Corran Horn had equal control to Yoda because of their potential equal skill in tutaminis. It also completely unjudgeable as to even use sorcery you need innate talent in it and thus its just a really bad way to Judge Vader vs Kun i terms of "power" as clearly more innate talent is their rather then Raw power or even Knowledge and understanding of the force in general (clearly greater knowledge of sorcery is shown but not greater knowledge of the force as a whole).

 

As for their Alter skills with out the sorcery, it appears Vader has Kun beat in terms of scope and refinement. He has assuredly shown more refinement with the ability to TK and Telepathically assault people while utilizing his saber and I feel has shown greater Scope with the number of large things he has lifted and with an ability like alter enviroment. While Kun has knocked Force users over with waves, i have already talked about how waves and pushes even if you have some resistance to them will knock you off your feat. Him throwing force users off their feet with such abilities does not show an ability to truly break through all of their shields simultaneously, but does show him with enough power that their shields could not bring the damage low enough to not be ripped on their feet. This is a feat that to me (yes this is partially an opinion based off what I THINK takes more power) does not match Vader TK lifting an unwilling Jedi and chocking them or Moving Star fighters or TK picking up and throwing large animals.

 

For this reason I think Vader would have the advantage in Alter powers as because of affinity for and all the rest of the unknowns about how much of it is affinity (aka natural talent) and how much of it is Raw power or pure understanding of the Force (understanding of the force as a whole not just understanding of sorcery) we cant really use sorcery feats as a measuring stick of some ones power with The Force. If that makes any sense to any one, not sure how to say it clearer.

 

 

Basically like anything a character has a natural affinity for Force wise its always above and beyond the usual scope of their power or their knowledge/ understanding. Corran Horn Does better with Tutaminis and Illussions then he does with any other power, but is still skilled in every thing save for TK which is his weakest point, Streen is the same way with Telepathy and Alter Enviroment being above and beyond all his other abilities. Koon having no training in lightning yet instinctually knowing how to use it showing the ability to use an ability that his knowledge would normally not allow. So on and so forth. This is why I dont think we can use Kun's Affinity for Sorcery and feats from Sorcery, which dont have normal means of defense or normal means of calling upon any way thus comparing them to more conventional powers in terms of "power" is already difficult before you throw the affects ones affinity has on the strength of those powers in comparison to their usual foray of abilities.

 

Any way I think for that reason, Vader seems to have had the better TK showings, and they both seem to have similar showing of Telepathic assaulting. For that reason I think Vader needs to return just above Kun.

[LadyKulvax]

We have already debated this twice before and I see no new point in your argument, I seriously hope we aren't having this debate a third time.

 

And just to point out the claim that Sorcery is more innate talent than power is entirely ludicrous, please give me a valid reason why every Sith Sorceress Jane didn't go absorbing races and/or planets...

 

The answer is obvious, there is a massively clear requirement for power here.

Edited May 30, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Here is my analysis.

 

Anyway, allow me to expand on my conclusions.

 

I gave Kun a TK edge because he is able to unleash powerful energy with greater ease. The feat in which he not only knocks down but incapacitates a dozen Jedi with little difficulty indicates that such a wave ripped through their barriers, only the full force could have incapacitated them in such a way. And in such a sense it strongly indicates that if he had wanted to he could have choked them out simultaneously (though I admit he may lack the technical ability to do so, the raw power is still there). Vader has never done this, and has fought many groups of Jedi.

 

Instead Vader seems only able to break through the barriers of single Jedi at a time, and when confronted by groups he engages them in lightsaber combat e.g. Ambush on Kessel. Though I won't deny that when perhaps given the time to gather his energies he may be capable of a feat of such a feat - but he cannot pull it off with such ease.

 

I made an admittedly tenuous comparison between Force Blast and Force Destruction which was a little scant, but I'd like to elaborate. Vader's usage of Force Destruction is theoretical and undocumented, but he should theoretically be possible of unleashing explosions of TK energy much akin to Darth Plagueis and Galen Marek that is capable of obliterating matter. However at the same time Vader is not on the same level as either of these Force Users, though we might theorise that he quite close to the abilities of Galen Marek.

 

Using him as a measuring stick we might say that Vader is capable of effectively tearing apart non-Force sensitive subjects with a concerted (rage induced etc.) effort. But not obliterating them, and certainly not with ease a la Plagueis.

 

In terms of Exar Kun he was capable of vaporizing individuals with the Force Blast, and was even able to obliterate the spirit of Freedon Nadd. We of course have to take into account the properties of Sith Magic, but we must remember that the only property worth mentioning is its ability to bypass conventional Force-based defenses. As an expression of raw Force Energy, which in many respects is what Force Destruction is, it has no notable advantages in terms of obliterating matter, physical matter - unprotected by Force shields. Namely non-Force sensitives which at the height of his abilities Exar Kun is capable of blasting into dust. Vader on the other hand, as far as we can conclude, simply is not.

 

EDIT: Yes Exar Kun has a natural affinity for Sith Sorcery. But that's as far as it goes. When wielding raw power, which is what the Force Blast is, the only thing aside from the affinity to harness it is the Force Energy to fuel it. Simply put Exar Kun's knowledge and affinity for Sith Sorcery doesn't make this raw power any more potent.

 

And I gave Vader the edge in terms of Mind Control and Force Shields for obvious reasons which I feel my intial analysis adequate summarizes. But as I go on to say, despite it being a 50/50 split in terms of abilities, Exar Kun takes the advantage in the more important, power orientated abilities. Whereas Vader in terms of technical mastery or otherwise areas that Vader has simply invested a lot of time into i.e. Force Shields, whereas Kun has not.

 

I stand by my conclusion, I think Exar Kun takes the cake here. Not by a huge margin, but he's still superior.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Anyway I tell a lie, there are actually two more important articles I have left over before we are done.

[Beniboybling]

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Saba Sebatyne

 

Control

 

Saba Sebatyne: managed to partially recover from several head wounds and lethal poisoning by entering a healing trance, she was also able to fight effectively whilst powering through these injuries in a display of Force valor.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: was also a powerful wielder of Force Valor, regulary using it to overcome severe injury in the face of adversity such as engaging Asajj Ventress while suffering from a cracked skull, possible concussion, a blaster wound and a corrosive chemical. He has endured physical and mental torture, explosions, beat downs etc. and still fought on. He was also a master of tutanimis, capable of deflecting projectiles of all kinds.

 

I'd declare them equal in this category, it should be noted that Kenobi has been show to be far more squishy in TCW and ROTS, however this is off-set by the fact that Saba is a Barabarel, who have an extremely tough hide and likely a higher pain threshold, whereas Kenobi as a human has more to overcome.

 

Sense

 

Saba Sebatyne: her abilities in Force sense were profound and she was able to detect the presence of Force sensitives over vast distances, as well as sense the disturbance in the Force caused by Darth Caedus at Mara Jade's Funeral. She was also skilled in Force meld and one of the key proponents of the technique.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: his abilities in this category were equally profound, possessing an incredible aptitude for sensing his surroundings, capable of taking into account all and every details without even looking, he also had a very powerful danger sense and was able to penetrate the concealment of Count Dooku.

 

It is very difficult to give an edge in this category, ultimately I would declare them equal as they both possess profound ability. Noting Saba was able to pierce a superior concealment spell than Kenobi, but to a lesser degree whereas Kenobi was able to see straight through and sense Dooku.

 

Alter

 

Saba Sebatyne: was a master of telekinesis and was able to direct objects with her mind and lift her master of the ground despite sporting serious injuries. She was also able to break through the Force barrier of said master.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: was also a TK master, developing the Force Push to an extremely high level to the point where he could match the output of Anakin Skywalker, though he was giving ground, he is also capable of repelling multiple projectiles and lifting large objects.

 

I think I'd have to give Saba the edge in this category, both of them can lift and direct large objects but Saba's ability to break through the Force Shields and grip a Jedi Master outstrips Kenobi's abilities. An ability that Kenobi himself has fallen prey too to the likes of Darth Maul and Count Dooku. And while his ability to hold out against Anakin was impressive, it speaks more of a technical mastery, a greater ability to manipulate air currents than Anakin.

 

Overall we have draws in terms of Control and Sense, and a edge for Saba in terms of TK. Altogether I'd have to give the edge to Saba, and I feel it is well deserved given her reputation and performance against others e.g. Welk.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Here is my analysis.

 

Anyway, allow me to expand on my conclusions.

 

I gave Kun a TK edge because he is able to unleash powerful energy with greater ease. The feat in which he not only knocks down but incapacitates a dozen Jedi with little difficulty indicates that such a wave ripped through their barriers, only the full force could have incapacitated them in such a way. And in such a sense it strongly indicates that if he had wanted to he could have choked them out simultaneously (though I admit he may lack the technical ability to do so, the raw power is still there). Vader has never done this, and has fought many groups of Jedi.

 

Instead Vader seems only able to break through the barriers of single Jedi at a time, and when confronted by groups he engages them in lightsaber combat e.g. Ambush on Kessel. Though I won't deny that when perhaps given the time to gather his energies he may be capable of a feat of such a feat - but he cannot pull it off with such ease.

 

I made an admittedly tenuous comparison between Force Blast and Force Destruction which was a little scant, but I'd like to elaborate. Vader's usage of Force Destruction is theoretical and undocumented, but he should theoretically be possible of unleashing explosions of TK energy much akin to Darth Plagueis and Galen Marek that is capable of obliterating matter. However at the same time Vader is not on the same level as either of these Force Users, though we might theorise that he quite close to the abilities of Galen Marek.

 

Using him as a measuring stick we might say that Vader is capable of effectively tearing apart non-Force sensitive subjects with a concerted (rage induced etc.) effort. But not obliterating them, and certainly not with ease a la Plagueis.

 

In terms of Exar Kun he was capable of vaporizing individuals with the Force Blast, and was even able to obliterate the spirit of Freedon Nadd. We of course have to take into account the properties of Sith Magic, but we must remember that the only property worth mentioning is its ability to bypass conventional Force-based defenses. As an expression of raw Force Energy, which in many respects is what Force Destruction is, it has no notable advantages in terms of obliterating matter, physical matter - unprotected by Force shields. Namely non-Force sensitives which at the height of his abilities Exar Kun is capable of blasting into dust. Vader on the other hand, as far as we can conclude, simply is not.

 

EDIT: Yes Exar Kun has a natural affinity for Sith Sorcery. But that's as far as it goes. When wielding raw power, which is what the Force Blast is, the only thing aside from the affinity to harness it is the Force Energy to fuel it. Simply put Exar Kun's knowledge and affinity for Sith Sorcery doesn't make this raw power any more potent.

 

And I gave Vader the edge in terms of Mind Control and Force Shields for obvious reasons which I feel my intial analysis adequate summarizes. But as I go on to say, despite it being a 50/50 split in terms of abilities, Exar Kun takes the advantage in the more important, power orientated abilities. Whereas Vader in terms of technical mastery or otherwise areas that Vader has simply invested a lot of time into i.e. Force Shields, whereas Kun has not.

 

I stand by my conclusion, I think Exar Kun takes the cake here. Not by a huge margin, but he's still superior.

I do not believe Sorcery shows raw power at all truthfully, and affinity for CAN overcome usual raw power. See Corran Horn example, his power with Tutaminis vastly outstripping his power with any other ability.

 

As far as TK goes, I figured we werent talking pure raw power if we were talking pure Raw power and Refined power had nothing to do with it Leia would be on the list and Anakin would be here not Vader, Galen would also be above the emperor, as though their knowledge of the force was weaker their connection was stronger thus their "raw power" was greater, but my understanding of the list was Raw+ refined. As in who was "the most powerful" not who has the "greatest connection". To that end refinement is as much "power" as scale. And to me pushing down a group of unknowns with enough force to knock them unconcious is not as good as moving starships with ease or even TK levitating a jedi off the ground and chocking them out. TK waves and pushes that knock out Jedi are much more common then truly ripping through the barriers and thrashing people about from what I have seen I do believe you are right that the Barriers were largely ineffective, but I do not believe they were 100% pierced, I am much more inclined to believe it was more like an 80% pierce so they got hit with the large brunt of it, but not enough to actually kill them.

 

Further More Vader's application is much wider showing greater Refinement of his power.

 

Ultimately Kun and Vader are extremely close in the "raw power" portion of it and since this "most powerful" list is supposed to take into account both Raw and Refined power with both being extremely close in the "raw" catagory the refined is the deciding factor, a catagory Vader trumps Kun in by a fair margin, in every power neither has "affinity" for showing Vader has a greater "mastery" and "understanding" of the force in general. (yes Kun has a better understanding of Sorcery, but again this is where that affinity comes from, we wouldnt say Koon has greater mastery of the force then Yoda or a greater understanding then Yoda because Koon can use Electrical Judgement and Yoda cant. Its his affinity for it that grants him that understanding same with Kun's affinity for it sorcery granting him the understanding. Does it take power for those blasts? yes, but that doesnt mean it takes any more power then he has already displayed in his TK feats since the TK waves and Blasts have different properties its very likely that you can cause larger distruction with equal power with the blasts, AkA some one does a full powered TK Push and knocks some one out, same person uses same amount of energy on Force Blast and disintigrates the target. The power is more concentrated after all so not to far fetched there, all-in-all its fairly speculative all we know is its not gaurdable and uses DS energy and Kun had an affinity for the technique.)

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Alright, here is my comparison of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Saba Sebatyne - thoughts are encouraged, thanks to Aurbere for doing an analysis of Kenobi's abilities.

 

Control

 

Saba Sebatyne: managed to partially recover from several head wounds and lethal poisoning by entering a healing trance, she was also able to fight effectively whilst powering through these injuries in a display of Force valor.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: was also a powerful wielder of Force Valor, regulary using it to overcome severe injury in the face of adversity such as engaging Asajj Ventress while suffering from a cracked skull, possible concussion, a blaster wound and a corrosive chemical. He has endured physical and mental torture, explosions, beat downs etc. and still fought on. He was also a master of tutanimis, capable of deflecting projectiles of all kinds.

 

I'd declare them equal in this category, it should be noted that Kenobi has been show to be far more squishy in TCW and ROTS, however this is off-set by the fact that Saba is a Barabarel, who have an extremely tough hide and likely a higher pain threshold, whereas Kenobi as a human has more to overcome.

 

Sense

 

Saba Sebatyne: her abilities in Force sense were profound and she was able to detect the presence of Force sensitives over vast distances, as well as sense the disturbance in the Force caused by Darth Caedus at Mara Jade's Funeral. She was also skilled in Force meld and one of the key proponents of the technique.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: his abilities in this category were equally profound, possessing an incredible aptitude for sensing his surroundings, capable of taking into account all and every details without even looking, he also had a very powerful danger sense and was able to penetrate the concealment of Count Dooku.

 

It is very difficult to give an edge in this category, ultimately I would declare them equal as they both possess profound ability. Noting Saba was able to pierce a superior concealment spell than Kenobi, but to a lesser degree whereas Kenobi was able to see straight through and sense Dooku.

 

Alter

 

Saba Sebatyne: was a master of telekinesis and was able to direct objects with her mind and lift her master of the ground despite sporting serious injuries. She was also able to break through the Force barrier of said master.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi: was also a TK master, developing the Force Push to an extremely high level to the point where he could match the output of Anakin Skywalker, though he was giving ground, he is also capable of repelling multiple projectiles and lifting large objects.

 

I think I'd have to give Saba the edge in this category, both of them can lift and direct large objects but Saba's ability to break through the Force Shields and grip a Jedi Master outstrips Kenobi's abilities. An ability that Kenobi himself has fallen prey too to the likes of Darth Maul and Count Dooku. And while his ability to hold out against Anakin was impressive, it speaks more of a technical mastery, a greater ability to manipulate air currents than Anakin.

 

Overall we have draws in terms of Control and Sense, and a edge for Saba in terms of TK. Altogether I'd have to give the edge to Saba, and I feel it is well deserved given her reputation and performance against others e.g. Welk.

 

actually I have to agree with this, it was hard to call for me, but when you put it out like this, I can definately see it, and this goes kind of to the refined thing I was talking about to a degree, I personally feel Saba (from what i have read about other TK exploits) may have more refined TK in other areas as well. (pinning multiple non-force sensitives to the floor, useage of occasional projectiles in combat so on and so forth.)

[Aurbere]

Completely disagree, but the decision has been made. Can't say I didn't try, right?

[Beniboybling]

Tutanimis has a lot of technical aspects to it that Corran clearly had an affinity for, I can assure you the only technical aspect to the Force Blast was the ability to harness raw dark side energy. It is a very simple if not crude power, you just focus your energy and unleash it. Any technical mastery/affinity is offset by Vader's own technical mastery over TK.

 

I'm not sure what the rest of your point is really getting at. The fact of the matter is that it seems that Vader is incapable of summoning enough Force energy to incapacitate multiple Jedi because he is not powerful enough. Go figure?

 

I mean seriously wut? Galen Marek has more strength in the Force than Sidious?

 

EDIT: I think your definition of raw power is flawed, the definiton of power is:

 

the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way

 

Note, to do something. Connections to the Force are all about potential, Anakin may have had a stronger connection to the Force than Sidious but his ability to apply himself was inferior to that of Sidious.

 

Now of course I'm prefixing this word with the word "Force" so I meaning one's capacity to act with the Force. And the word raw referring to the notion that its unfettered by refined aspects such as knowledge, understanding etc.

 

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

 

But anyway, 100% piercing one Jedi is IMO inferior to 80% or whatever piercing a dozen Jedi, because of course we have to account for the fact that the power is spread or rather diluted across multiple subjects. And while yes lifting starships is indeed impressive I feel that if Vader were stronger he would not have shown shortcomings here.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Completely disagree, but the decision has been made. Can't say I didn't try, right?

Lol, this is just my detailed opinion, not a decision! For that we need a majority, this is just to help get a handle on the debate and lay out the situation in depth, if you see any points of contention feel free to point them out.

 

But yes, this is how see the matter. But I remain open-minded.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Lol, this is just my detailed opinion, not a decision! For that we need a majority, this is just to help get a handle on the debate and lay out the situation in depth, if you see any points of contention feel free to point them out.

 

But yes, this is how see the matter. But I remain open-minded.

 

Well, the issue I have is giving Saba the edge in Alter (I can let the Control argument go, considering Saba's recovery from severe wounds).

 

I would have to double check, but I am certain that Saba's master had been injured and defeated just prior to that, so I'm sure his Barriers would also be weakened. I also feel that using Count Dooku against Kenobi is simply unfair, as Dooku is, in my opinion, more powerful than Saba. But that's a different argument entirely.

 

What I feel is more important is that Kenobi is a more refined and technical master of the Force, with greater feats of telekinesis. To my knowledge, Saba hasn't manipulated out-of-control starfighters with ease.

 

Regardless, I also feel that his demonstration against Anakin Skywalker is also superior, as Anakin is, as I said before, one of the most powerful Force users in galactic history. In fact, I believe the Council thought he was the Order's most powerful member. Wrong, yes, and possibly me mis-remembering, but if it is true, then it does speak volumes, yes?

 

Anyway, I'll see if others have anything to say before I say more.

[tunewalker]

Tutanimis has a lot of technical aspects to it that Corran clearly had an affinity for, I can assure you the only technical aspect to the Force Blast was the ability to harness raw dark side energy. It is a very simple if not crude power, you just focus your energy and unleash it. Any technical mastery/affinity is offset by Vader's own technical mastery over TK.

 

I'm not sure what the rest of your point is really getting at. The fact of the matter is that it seems that Vader is incapable of summoning enough Force energy to incapacitate multiple Jedi because he is not powerful enough. Go figure?

 

I mean seriously wut? Galen Marek has more strength in the Force than Sidious?

 

 

Affinity is not true technical mastery (see Koon vs Yoda, just because Koon can use Electrical Judgement and Yoda can not does not Mean Koon has a greater understanding of the Light side then Yoda, its just his affinity that grants him knowledge that he wouldnt other wise have)

 

The power that is used I am not in dispute (see the feats preformed with Force Blasts likely take the same amount of energy used in Kun's Force Waves the energy type just being different and more concentrated causing more devistating concentrated results. IE with out assistance he doesnt wipe out multiple people with Force blasts only 1 at a time doing massive damage to that person and minor damage to the surrounding, vs TK waves damage being more spread out, energy used is the same though. Knowledge and understanding are both the same as well as his affinity for it grants him knowledge in that catagory beyond what he naturally would have. IE if Vader had Affinity for Sorcery his refinement with the Force in general + an Affinity for Sorcery would grant him access to more Sorcery then Kun because of the greater refinement, but with out that affinity for Sorcery he just has greater refinement in General aspects.)

 

The rest is you are talking pure Raw power, we Have already admmited Vader has greater Refinement and Understanding of the Force in general. (minus Sorcery which Kun only has do to Affinity thus a power granted to him beyond his actual level of understanding as is with all that have affinity for a power (either using it at a level beyond what their understanding should allow or being able to use it at all even though their understanding of the force isnt as advanced as others that cant use it, see Yoda vs Koon.) My point is if this was just "Raw Power" Then Leia, who has the same Raw power as her Brother Luke, Anakin who's Raw power was equal to or greater then Luke's and Galen who had Greater Raw power then the Emperor (IE Connection to the force) would all be much higher on this list, but my understanding is this list is a combination of "raw power" and "Refined Power" thus we can not decide solely based on the "Raw Power".

 

Does Kun have slightly more "Raw Power" then Vader...... maybe I still debate it because I still think the TK wave is getting to much credit, if he does then it is by a very small margin.

 

Does Vader have more "Refined Power" absolutely no doubt in any one's mind.

 

The fact that its so much closer with Raw then it is with Refined, TO ME means we should lean more towards favoring the one that is the Most definitive. The one that there is a clear and definable gap large enough to say one way or another with absolute certainty. For this case that would Vader, this is my prefrence go with what is more clear rather then what is more mercky.

 

 

Edit: also any one want to talk about Zannah Over Bane, she did beat him using Force powers after all.

 

 

Edit 2: also according to Wookie in "Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison 5", Vader's TK waves were strong enough to kill dozens of people simultaneously, we are talking Plageus Level Waves here.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

'A dozen unknowns' twelve Jedi Masters and Knights, just because they didn't get given specific names makes it no less impressive, Vader's opponents on Kessel were basically unknowns too, does that mean Vader is weaksauce for not lolstomping them? of course not, lets not bring in these arbitrary restrictions on what equates to impressive.

 

Oh and Kun was very very well refined and has FAR more abilities under his belt outside of Sorcery than you give him any credit for.

 

Force Flight, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Force Wound, Force Horror, Force Shield & Force Drain.(off the top of my head)

 

I'd also like to bring up the fact that he sensed Ulic was in danger (before Ulic even attacked Coruscant) from halfway across the galaxy which shows incredible skill in Force Sense.

 

Oh and we love comparisons right? well this is not just about Sorcery, Exar Kun in the 2 years he was active as a Sith Lord was more powerful than the Sith Emperor was at the time and showed a comparable level of power and talent in Sorcery, the Emperor by this time was around a thousand years active...

 

Think about that for a minute.

 

Oh and how about: "The sheer presence of Exar Kun was sickening, Luke's mind was fighting and refusing to acknowledge that the Dark Side could be so deep and concentrated, so powerful in one being; it reminded him no it felt exactly the same as the sensation he had in the Emperor's presence.. the lull in his voice, the almost hypnotic words, the overwhelming feeling that the Dark Side itself had manifested itself into a single entity, but Luke could not allow this Dark Lord of the Sith to fully return to the physical."

 

Yep only comparable to Darth Sidious himself, not Vader.

Edited May 30, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

Well, the issue I have is giving Saba the edge in Alter (I can let the Control argument go, considering Saba's recovery from severe wounds).

 

I would have to double check, but I am certain that Saba's master had been injured and defeated just prior to that, so I'm sure his Barriers would also be weakened. I also feel that using Count Dooku against Kenobi is simply unfair, as Dooku is, in my opinion, more powerful than Saba. But that's a different argument entirely.

 

What I feel is more important is that Kenobi is a more refined and technical master of the Force, with greater feats of telekinesis. To my knowledge, Saba hasn't manipulated out-of-control starfighters with ease.

 

Regardless, I also feel that his demonstration against Anakin Skywalker is also superior, as Anakin is, as I said before, one of the most powerful Force users in galactic history. In fact, I believe the Council thought he was the Order's most powerful member. Wrong, yes, and possibly me mis-remembering, but if it is true, then it does speak volumes, yes?

 

Anyway, I'll see if others have anything to say before I say more.

 

Depending on definition of "power" its not wrong to call Anakin the Order's most powerful.

 

 

Greatest "Raw power" and or "connection to the Force" Yes Anakin was the most "Powerful"

 

Greatest Knowledge understanding + Raw Power..... we all know that goes to Yoda.

[tunewalker]

'A dozen unknowns' twelve Jedi Masters and Knights, just because they didn't get given specific names makes it no less impressive, Vader's opponents on Kessel were basically unknowns too, does that mean Vader is weaksauce for not lolstomping them? of course not, lets not bring in these arbitrary restrictions on what equates to impressive.

 

Oh and Kun was very very well refined and has FAR more abilities under his belt outside of Sorcery than you give him any credit for.

 

Force Flight, Force Stun, Force Whirlwind, Force Wound, Force Horror, Force Shield & Force Drain.(off the top of my head)

 

I'd also like to bring up the fact that he sensed Ulic was in danger (before Ulic even attacked Coruscant) from halfway across the galaxy which shows incredible skill in Force Sense.

 

Oh and we love comparisons right? well this is not just about Sorcery, Exar Kun in the 2 years he was active as a Sith Lord was more powerful than the Sith Emperor was at the time and showed a comparable level of power and talent in Sorcery, the Emperor by this time was around a thousand years active...

 

Think about that for a minute.

 

Oh and how about: "The sheer presence of Exar Kun was sickening, Luke's mind was fighting and refusing to acknowledge that the Dark Side could be so deep and concentrated, so powerful in one being; it reminded him no it felt exactly the same as the sensation he had in the Emperor's presence.. the lull in his voice, the almost hypnotic words, the overwhelming feeling that the Dark Side itself had manifested itself into a single entity, but Luke could not allow thisDark Lord of the Sith to fully rereturn to the physical."

 

Yep only comparable to Darth Sidious himself, not Vader.

 

Remember that Vader was still recovering when he Landed on Kessel as far as I am aware he was still a shell of his former self as Anakin and not even half as strong as he would become as Vader.

 

Affinity for sorcery, vs someone that needed to learn it with out affinity for (to my knowledge) yep thats comparable.... oh wait ..... see Yoda vs Corran Horn Tutaminis. Yoda 900 years, Corran Horn a couple months, no Affinity for vs affinity for.

 

You already know my response to Luke meeting with Kun, I dont feel like being a broken record.

 

 

Edit: dont know if you know this, but to my knowledge Vader has all of those abilities you just listed for Kun save for Drain and I think Flight, but replaces it with Alter Enviroment and Tutaminis, Force Protection (an even more advanced version of Force shield from my understanding) and Force Cloak.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Well, the issue I have is giving Saba the edge in Alter (I can let the Control argument go, considering Saba's recovery from severe wounds).

 

I would have to double check, but I am certain that Saba's master had been injured and defeated just prior to that, so I'm sure his Barriers would also be weakened. I also feel that using Count Dooku against Kenobi is simply unfair, as Dooku is, in my opinion, more powerful than Saba. But that's a different argument entirely.

 

What I feel is more important is that Kenobi is a more refined and technical master of the Force, with greater feats of telekinesis. To my knowledge, Saba hasn't manipulated out-of-control starfighters with ease.

 

Regardless, I also feel that his demonstration against Anakin Skywalker is also superior, as Anakin is, as I said before, one of the most powerful Force users in galactic history. In fact, I believe the Council thought he was the Order's most powerful member. Wrong, yes, and possibly me mis-remembering, but if it is true, then it does speak volumes, yes?

 

Anyway, I'll see if others have anything to say before I say more.

I can't find any evidence. However it should be noted that she only managed to grip him after he fell of the catwalk, it may have been the shock, or maybe he just let her, that allowed her to take hold of him.

 

I say that because there is another instance where she tried to grip him but apparently he "easily broke free" - that said Saba did just get stabbed in the abdomen which probably weakened her.

 

True enough for Dooku however, I just thought it was worth mentioning in general.

 

I don't doubt Anakin's powers, and I need no statement to believe that he was extremely powerful. But 1. Kenobi gave ground and 2. I feel that with a more refined and technical mastery over TK, he would have been able to use a Force Push without exerting as much Force Power - heck he clearly did else Anakin would have slapped him down.

 

But perhaps this requires a closer look, further comparable feats on Saba's end it would be appreciated.

[Beniboybling]

Affinity is not true technical mastery (see Koon vs Yoda, just because Koon can use Electrical Judgement and Yoda can not does not Mean Koon has a greater understanding of the Light side then Yoda, its just his affinity that grants him knowledge that he wouldnt other wise have)

 

The power that is used I am not in dispute (see the feats preformed with Force Blasts likely take the same amount of energy used in Kun's Force Waves the energy type just being different and more concentrated causing more devistating concentrated results. IE with out assistance he doesnt wipe out multiple people with Force blasts only 1 at a time doing massive damage to that person and minor damage to the surrounding, vs TK waves damage being more spread out, energy used is the same though. Knowledge and understanding are both the same as well as his affinity for it grants him knowledge in that catagory beyond what he naturally would have. IE if Vader had Affinity for Sorcery his refinement with the Force in general + an Affinity for Sorcery would grant him access to more Sorcery then Kun because of the greater refinement, but with out that affinity for Sorcery he just has greater refinement in General aspects.)

 

The rest is you are talking pure Raw power, we Have already admmited Vader has greater Refinement and Understanding of the Force in general. (minus Sorcery which Kun only has do to Affinity thus a power granted to him beyond his actual level of understanding as is with all that have affinity for a power (either using it at a level beyond what their understanding should allow or being able to use it at all even though their understanding of the force isnt as advanced as others that cant use it, see Yoda vs Koon.) My point is if this was just "Raw Power" Then Leia, who has the same Raw power as her Brother Luke, Anakin who's Raw power was equal to or greater then Luke's and Galen who had Greater Raw power then the Emperor (IE Connection to the force) would all be much higher on this list, but my understanding is this list is a combination of "raw power" and "Refined Power" thus we can not decide solely based on the "Raw Power".

 

Does Kun have slightly more "Raw Power" then Vader...... maybe I still debate it because I still think the TK wave is getting to much credit, if he does then it is by a very small margin.

 

Does Vader have more "Refined Power" absolutely no doubt in any one's mind.

 

The fact that its so much closer with Raw then it is with Refined, TO ME means we should lean more towards favoring the one that is the Most definitive. The one that there is a clear and definable gap large enough to say one way or another with absolute certainty. For this case that would Vader, this is my prefrence go with what is more clear rather then what is more mercky.

 

 

Edit: also any one want to talk about Zannah Over Bane, she did beat him using Force powers after all.

I've edited that post, you'll find it helpful. Let me post it here for convenience:

I think your definition of raw power is flawed, the definiton of power is:

 

the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way.

 

Note, to do something. Connections to the Force are all about potential, Anakin may have had a stronger connection to the Force than Sidious but his ability to apply himself was inferior to that of Sidious.

 

Now of course I'm prefixing this word with the word "Force" so I meaning one's capacity to act with the Force. And the word raw referring to the notion that its unfettered by refined aspects such as knowledge, understanding etc.

 

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

Anyway I'd point out that Kun's incapacitation was a off-hand feat which he put little energy into. Whereas when he vaporised the Massassi it was clear that he was drawing on the very heights of his power. I don't know if he could do the same with TK, I think if in a rage induced fury he could very likely do something similar to Galen Marek.

 

But if he couldn't, I'd put that down to an inferior knowledge of TK, and therefore an inability to channel energies, energies which he has mastered and realised (not potential) in that particular way.

 

Building on by edit, raw power > technical mastery. Because technical mastery, knowledge etc. is merely an indication of one's ability to use the Force, because it implies gateways, gateways of power, have been opened and a greater level of one's potential has been reached. But ultimately it is one's demonstrations of the Force i.e. raw power, that takes precedence. Kun's superior raw power showings demonstrates plain and simple that despite the fact that he lacks technical refiniement in the field of TK, he can still exert his power on a superior level to Vader, he is more powerful.

 

Think about this carefully, it is simply not fair to undermine Kun on such grounds if he has the showings, we cannot degrade him because he paid more attention to sorcery - his knowledge of which and arugably his knowledge of the Force in general outstripping Vader's - anymore than we can gimp Vader for the opposite.

 

To take this further, if their raw showings i.e. simply put their applications of power, were equal, then I'd give the edge to Vader, because his superior understanding and refined mastery in the sphere of TK, indicates (and only indicates) that when push comes to shove, Vader could perform more powerful showings than Kun, because he has unlocked more of his potential than Kun. That's what is at the very crux of this list, how much of one's potential you have unlocked, and whose unlocked potential is the most potent. I hope this issue is now clear to you.

 

EDIT: Now if you want to argue that despite Kun's superior raw showings, Vader's technical mastery still indicates superior power, then fine, but I'm afraid I'd still disagree for the following reasons:

 

1. Evidence suggests Vader is simply not capable of these feats, he was inferior to Marek i.e. a being capable of vaporisation, and when up against multiple Jedi opponents he's had to wade in a fight, sometimes with disatrous results. This indicates shortcoming in his ability to wield the Force, shortcomings Kun does not have.

 

2. As Rayla pointed out, Kun has a great deal of technical mastery as well. He's master a wide set of feats and his knowledge of Sith Sorcery most likely vastly increased his understanding of the Force in general. It is after all not an exclusive field. And all in all Vader's technical mastery is reserved for TK and TK alone, not other spheres.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I can't find any evidence. However it should be noted that she only managed to grip him after he fell of the catwalk, it may have been the shock, or maybe he just let her, that allowed her to take hold of him.

 

I say that because there is another instance where she tried to grip him but apparently he "easily broke free" - that said Saba did just get stabbed in the abdomen which probably weakened her.

 

True enough for Dooku however, I just thought it was worth mentioning in general.

 

I don't doubt Anakin's powers, and I need no statement to believe that he was extremely powerful. But 1. Kenobi gave ground and 2. I feel that with a more refined and technical mastery over TK, he would have been able to use a Force Push without exerting as much Force Power - heck he clearly did else Anakin would have slapped him down.

 

But perhaps this requires a closer look, further comparable feats on Saba's end it would be appreciated.

 

Fair points.

 

I don't think Saba has anymore comparable feats. Then again, I'm no expert on her.

 

However, I would just like to take a moment to revisit the Force Valor argument. Specifically his feats on Ohma-Dun. Why? Well, it is certainly possible that the area of the Gungan Colony Massacre had become a Dark Side nexus. Similar massacres have created potent Force nexi in the past, so I have no reason to doubt it here.

 

Also, prior to the duel with Ventress and Durge, Kenobi was almost incapacitated by the "hemorrhaging" (as he put it) energy. So I feel that this would make his feats of Force Valor even more impressive. Anyone else feel the same?

[Beniboybling]

'A dozen unknowns' twelve Jedi Masters and Knights, just because they didn't get given specific names makes it no less impressive, Vader's opponents on Kessel were basically unknowns too, does that mean Vader is weaksauce for not lolstomping them? of course not, lets not bring in these arbitrary restrictions on what equates to impressive.

I couldn't agree more, in the case of unknowns we can't simply assume they are weak. Because they are unknowns. Again we are arguing from ignorance here, instead we have to take them at face value i.e. they are Jedi Knights/Masters so we must assume they are average Jedi Knight/Master level - not weak chumps.