Jedi = Sociopath | Sith = Psychopath ?

[Sadishist]

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

First line of Jedi Code. Their teachings is to embrace sociopath-ism?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Sadishist

[Jandi]

Of all the stupid **** I've seen in here over the years...

[StarSquirrel]

Of all the stupid **** I've seen in here over the years...

 

While I'm not quite as offended, yeah what this guy said.

 

Sith are psychopaths for sure, what else would explain their tempers, murderous rampages, wildly conflicting emotions... unless they're all women on their periods perhaps? *shakes head*

 

No, no, no. Jedi are taught not to allow their emotions to control them. It isn't that they don't have any to begin with.

 

Anakin, Marek, Luke, Naomi Sunrider, Jacen, Jaina, Bastila, Revan, ect... all had significant others who they loved as well as these options in particular all showed other emotions as well. Many flirted or outright fell to the darkside whent hey let the emotions take over.

 

Sith, however experience something more akin to substance-induced psychosis as a result of overexposure to the Darkside.

Edited January 22, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

/sigh - sociopaths have emotions.

 

Also sociopathy and psychopathy are the same things. Nor are they philosophies that one can embrace but personality disorders that one is born with. Nor is it possible that a Jedi could be a sociopath, I suggest you do some research.

 

Also Star, I wouldn't say that all Sith are psychopaths, or even close.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Jandi]

Also Star, I wouldn't say that all Sith are psychopaths, or even close.

 

No, they aren't indeed. They have psychotic impulses that are most likely caused by the inherent corrupting effects of drawing on the dark side but psychotic impulses have nothing at all to do with sociopathy.

[Beniboybling]

No, they aren't indeed. They have psychotic impulses that are most likely caused by the inherent corrupting effects of drawing on the dark side but psychotic impulses have nothing at all to do with sociopathy.

Perhaps, though psychosis is usually defined in terms of insanity e.g. paranoia, hallucinations, delusions etc. So I'd only say that in regards to more unstable Force users like Lord Cronal, though he is proof it can have that effect.

[AlexDougherty]

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

First line of Jedi Code. Their teachings is to embrace sociopath-ism?

 

Sociopaths have emotions, What they don't have is empathy, they get angry/happy/sad/etc, but they don't care if other people do, literally they have no emotional attachment to other people.

 

As someone else said Sociopath is the same as Psychopath, Sociopath is the American termanology, Psychopath is both the original termanology and the European termanology (we still use it).

[Beniboybling]

Sociopaths have emotions, What they don't have is empathy, they get angry/happy/sad/etc, but they don't care if other people do, literally they have no emotional attachment to other people.

 

As someone else said Sociopath is the same as Psychopath, Sociopath is the American termanology, Psychopath is both the original termanology and the European termanology (we still use it).

Exactly, and Jedi philosophy revolves around empathy so its simply impossible.

[AlexDougherty]

Perhaps, though psychosis is usually defined in terms of insanity e.g. paranoia, hallucinations, delusions etc. So I'd only say that in regards to more unstable Force users like Lord Cronal, though he is proof it can have that effect.

 

Yes, but this has nothing to do with being a Sociopath/Psychopath, a Sociopath has no emotional attachments to other people, or any real definition of right or wrong, that's all.

 

They are not necessarily bad people, they don't necessarily commit crimes, it's just that when they do the reasons are generally "there was no reason not too". It's all about whether the benefits outweigh the risks for Sociopaths, because they have no real concept of right, just what's socially acceptable/illegal, and once they think the benefits outweigh the risks (not just the obvious ones btw), they do it with no regret (because they have no real concept of right or wrong).

 

Sociopaths/Psychopaths are good at pretending they understand right and wrong, and are excellent at mapping social/emotional responses in other people, and can even convince themselves that they get it, but because they lack empathy, they never really deep down consider other people important, thus never really get why hurting them (real or emotionally) is bad, therefore can't understand truely when something is wrong (they just remeber examples and try to extrapolate). I know all this sounds like how children learn right from wrong, but the point is Sociopaths/Psychopaths never go beyond this stage.

 

 

-Edit, just read your reply to my other post, misunderstood the point you were making Beni, sorry

Edited January 22, 2014 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

-Edit, just read your reply to my other post, misunderstood the point you were making Beni, sorry

Yeah no worries, there is somebody on this thread who needs to understand what sociopathy is.

[Jandi]

Yeah no worries, there is somebody on this thread who needs to understand what sociopathy is.

 

I think the OP is too embarrassed to reply.

[StarSquirrel]

Also sociopathy and psychopathy are the same things. Nor are they philosophies that one can embrace but personality disorders that one is born with. Nor is it possible that a Jedi could be a sociopath, I suggest you do some research.

 

Also Star, I wouldn't say that all Sith are psychopaths, or even close.

 

Actually not in recent years. Psychopathy has taken on a much more specific definition usually being a hereditary issue (excuse my post about sith, that'd be incorrect they'd actually be sociopaths) while sociopath relates to environmental stresses. So yes, there is a difference. Link, Link

Edited January 22, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Kain_Turinbar]

To me the Sith are the sociopaths since they care only for themselves will do what benefits themselves no matter what the costs to everyone else.

 

The Jedi are the complete opposite and I don't see how a case can be made for them being sociopaths.

[divinecynic]

Now if someone wanted to argue that the Jedi Knight and Sage are psychopaths that might be a discussion. I mean look how many people you kill in the game Most serial killers come no where near those numbers Edited January 22, 2014 by divinecynic

[psandak]

Now if someone wanted to argue that the Jedi Knight and Sage are psychopaths that might be a discussion. I mean look how many people you kill in the game Most serial killers come no where near those numbers

 

That's game mechanics. Is there any RPG out there where the PC never defeats enemies through violence? Furthermore, 99% of confrontational conversations in this game have a, "surrender now and you'll be OK," choice

 

And in this game, like so many others, there is a war going on. Are all soldiers sociopaths/psychopaths for killing in the line duty?

[Beniboybling]

Actually not in recent years. Psychopathy has taken on a much more specific definition usually being a hereditary issue (excuse my post about sith, that'd be incorrect they'd actually be sociopaths) while sociopath relates to environmental stresses. So yes, there is a difference. Link, Link

Well that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

However, I still wouldn't define Sith as psychopaths or sociopaths. If I'm understanding this correctly sociopathy is something that is manifested via stunted brain growth or brain damage. Yet that would mean that all these Sith would have had to have had troubled childhoods or suffered brain damage at some point, yet we know that is not the case.

 

Could the dark side perhaps in somehow alter the brain? Perhaps. But it wouldn't be a theory supported by anything currently within Star Wars lore so I wouldn't be inclined to believe it.

[StarSquirrel]

Well that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

However, I still wouldn't define Sith as psychopaths or sociopaths. If I'm understanding this correctly sociopathy is something that is manifested via stunted brain growth or brain damage. Yet that would mean that all these Sith would have had to have had troubled childhoods or suffered brain damage at some point, yet we know that is not the case.

 

Could the dark side perhaps in somehow alter the brain? Perhaps. But it wouldn't be a theory supported by anything currently within Star Wars lore so I wouldn't be inclined to believe it.

 

Substance abuse (in this case use of the Darkside) can make one unstable, and inherently psychotic. The Darkside has a tangible effect on its users as we know (darkside corruption anyone?) so from observing the radical mood swings and behavioral shifts (random violence and accelerated tempers) that are also markedly different in fallen jedi from their previous behaviour, it stands to reason that sith can suffer from forms of substance-induced psychosis (in which case it would be sociopathy since it is environmental factors at the root).

 

This isn't a generalization of ALL sith, but many (especially in the SWTOR era) do appear to suffer from this.

[ScarletBlaze]

This is something I read a while back about the first line of the jedi code and this makes sense at least to me.

 

 

Emotions are a natural part of living. As the great sagas have shown us, Jedi are not immune to feeling emotions. Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Master Yoda both openly express their sorrow when they discover the death of younglings at the newly-appointed Darth Vader's hand. This tenet is not to say that emotion does not exist but that it ought to be set aside. Emotions must be understood first, and it is a young Jedi's duty to explore his feelings. Unless a Jedi can confront his thoughts and feelings, he will never achieve peace. Emotions, then, are not to be overcome or denied, but rather understood and dealt with. A'Sharad Hett reminds the young Anakin Skywalker of this during their campaigns together during the Clone Wars. Hett points out that Anakin's anger is understandable, but he must face it. This tenet could be modified to read "Emotion cannot take away my peace."

[Jandi]

Ok, there is some serious bull being thrown around in here so I'll take the time to explain it. Note that what I'm about to say comes from years of studying the phenomenon, no wikipedia.

 

Sociopathy (or whatever you want to call it, the name does not matter, only it's effects) isn't a lack of empathy, it's the complete and utter absence of it. It also makes other emotions stunted, shallow. A sociopath does have feelings, but they are quick to subside and have no real impact long term. Emotions do not teach a sociopath the same way they do a normal person. To a sociopath, the suffering and joys of other humans simply do not register on an emotional level the way they do to a normal person.

 

That is the crux of the matter, nothing more and nothing less.

 

It does *not* mean that sociopaths are automatically serial killers or in fact, bad people at all. Afterall, being a sociopath does not make one a killer, being a killer does and sociopathy has nothing at all to do with it, it simply does not have the emotional weight it does for normal people. Just like normal people do not feel any empathy towards a tree they cut down. Does that mean people go around cutting trees for fun automatically? No, of course not. If the urge or need to do harm isn't there, a sociopath is not more or less likely to do so than any other person. Of course, being a sociopath does not make you immune or magically exempt from other mental illnessess, and those are the people you hear about in the news and see in the movies. However, those acts are not inherent nor exclusive to sociopaths. The difference is that a sociopath has no true remorse about their actions, just like normal people don't have remorse about cutting down a tree.

 

This might sound scary to people, and I guess it can be. Completely alien in fact but sociopaths have always existed. The reason is unknown, but a sociopaths brain is structurally different. It's not a chemical imbalance or a psychosis, they are physically different on a measurable level. They didn't choose to be that way, they just are.

 

What about morals, then? Well, that is a tricky question I feel. If morals are acquired from culture, there is obviously a problem as a sociopath does not empathize with others, they do not understand the moral conventions of those around them. They can mimick the moral behaviour of others, of course, but breaking the moral rules has no effect whatsoever. However, not conforming to moral values of the culture is hardly unique to sociopaths.

 

Now, a sense of justice and honour however is perfectly ffeasible to a sociopath as it stems from the ego, not empathy towards others. For example, a socipath can be completely appalled and disgusted by the act of rape. Not because it hurtrs the woman, but because it's pathetic and weak. They might get angry about a bully because, again, it's pathetic to abuse those clearly weaker than you.

 

And now for something more closely related to the topic. A sociopath would certainly thrive in a Sith society, these people have always thrived in such environments throughout history. That however does not mean Sith are sociopaths, or that the Sith way is inherently sociopathic; as in some ways, it's anti-sociopathic because the dark side feeds on emotions and as they do not feel them as deeply, they can't be fueled at the same level. It also means that seeing someone you care about die doesn't throw them into a rage as it would normal people. Sociopaths also thrive in the corporate world where every co-worker is merely a stepping stone to the next promotion. That, of course, does not mean that corporations are all inherently sociopathic.

 

If you read all that I hope you learned something.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Jandi

[Beniboybling]

Substance abuse (in this case use of the Darkside) can make one unstable, and inherently psychotic. The Darkside has a tangible effect on its users as we know (darkside corruption anyone?) so from observing the radical mood swings and behavioral shifts (random violence and accelerated tempers) that are also markedly different in fallen jedi from their previous behaviour, it stands to reason that sith can suffer from forms of substance-induced psychosis (in which case it would be sociopathy since it is environmental factors at the root).

 

This isn't a generalization of ALL sith, but many (especially in the SWTOR era) do appear to suffer from this.

But that would not be grounds for classing one as a sociopath, which is permanent. Nor do those suffering from psychosis have many similar (if any similar) resemblances to sociopaths. Control being a complete non-factor.

 

Concerning psychosis I'll quote my preivous statement:

 

Perhaps, though psychosis is usually defined in terms of insanity e.g. paranoia, hallucinations, delusions etc. So I'd only say that in regards to more unstable Force users like Lord Cronal, though he is proof it can have that effect.

 

Psychosis and insanity are symptomatic, anyone suffering from psychosis within the Sith Empire would not be able to function properly, and probably be put down. There are a few babbling lunatics within the Empire but not many.

 

Really I think when concerning the Force we should leave mental disorders out of it. The dark side is a mystical and fantastical energy that doesn't conform to scientific principles, it likely simply enhances the anger of the individual which would make one prone to outbursts and able to inflict excessive amounts of suffering.

 

But that alone isn't cause for labeling someone psychotic or sociopathic, the dark side of the Force is just one side of the coin, and it doesn't constitute a mental disability. Otherwise the Sith would break down into anarchy.

[Beniboybling]

If you read all that I hope you learned something.

Very good, and much needed. Sociopathy is a pretty complex subject... I'm not sure we are even capable of fully understanding it.

[divinecynic]

That's game mechanics. Is there any RPG out there where the PC never defeats enemies through violence? Furthermore, 99% of confrontational conversations in this game have a, "surrender now and you'll be OK," choice

 

And in this game, like so many others, there is a war going on. Are all soldiers sociopaths/psychopaths for killing in the line duty?

 

*Passes you a sense of humor*

 

Edit: It was intended as a bit of humor and hence the in the post. However I will bite as to your points.

 

There are rpgs where conflict can be resolved without violence. Go look into tabletop games. However most video game rpgs do tend to get violent. That does not mean that amount of people killed by Jedi characters is not over the top. Other video games are irrelevant. Also the point was not that no fighting could occur but that so much of it was going on that it made the Jedi look blood-thirsty.

 

The majority of fighting in SWTOR does not involve cutscenes but involve mobs. Hell let's not even say majority but a great deal more than 1%. Often no dialogue is involved at all. The mob sees you and you fight. Also the game, especially while leveling encourages you to go pick fights with mobs.

 

As Malgus said, "Beings die in war that is the price that must be paid." On Balmorra my sent took on the whole Imperial Army. My jedi knight outkills my sith assassin all day long.

 

Also let's not insult real soldiers in real wars by comparing my toon in a SWTOR MMORG. Their issues are far more complex. My toon is far game to be mocked, they are not.

 

The Jedi in the games are following video game form and logic. So yeah pretty psycho. The game tells us "Kill more and get this" Most video game characters are mass-murdering hobos out to kill things and take their stuff.

Edited January 23, 2014 by divinecynic

[Aurbere]

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

First line of Jedi Code. Their teachings is to embrace sociopath-ism?

 

:confused:

[ShadowMudkip]

Substance abuse (in this case use of the Darkside) can make one unstable, and inherently psychotic. The Darkside has a tangible effect on its users as we know (darkside corruption anyone?) so from observing the radical mood swings and behavioral shifts (random violence and accelerated tempers) that are also markedly different in fallen jedi from their previous behaviour, it stands to reason that sith can suffer from forms of substance-induced psychosis (in which case it would be sociopathy since it is environmental factors at the root).

 

This isn't a generalization of ALL sith, but many (especially in the SWTOR era) do appear to suffer from this.

 

This doesn't make any sense as substances (drugs, chemicals ect.) almost always act in the same way. This would mean that EVERY dark side user would exhibit the same symptoms. As almost every Sith is different, and some don't show signs of craziness or mental instability, then something else must be at work.

 

I believe that the sheer amount of power at a Sith's disposal is what causes sociopathic tendencies among Sith. Power doesn't corrupt, it attracts the corrupted.

[AlexDougherty]

Psychosis and insanity are symptomatic, anyone suffering from psychosis within the Sith Empire would not be able to function properly, and probably be put down. There are a few babbling lunatics within the Empire but not many.

 

Really I think when concerning the Force we should leave mental disorders out of it. The dark side is a mystical and fantastical energy that doesn't conform to scientific principles, it likely simply enhances the anger of the individual which would make one prone to outbursts and able to inflict excessive amounts of suffering.

 

But that alone isn't cause for labeling someone psychotic or sociopathic, the dark side of the Force is just one side of the coin, and it doesn't constitute a mental disability. Otherwise the Sith would break down into anarchy.

 

Actually Sith could have a Psychosis and still be functional, most are Paranoid and Paranoia is a Psychosis (unless they actually are out to get you, then it's a Neurosis). In fact I would say the vast majority of Sith have some form of Psychosis or Neurosis, but are just in control enough for them to be functional, to varying degrees.

 

Also the Darkside affects people differently, with some it is like a drug, with others it's like a disease (it literally consumes them and they die because of it), and with others it has virtually no effect (they were already angry/fearful etc and it doesn't even amplify these emotions for them), and with others it amplifies the emotions, skews the perceptions etc. There is no standard rule for the effect of theDarkside.