Nemarus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Simply put, there is absolutely no reason to fly the new Gunship variant instead of the old Gunship variant. If you compare them component by component (as I did colorfully here), they are either a tie, or the original Gunship is superior. The new Gunship simply offers no compelling reason to fly it. Sure, people will unlock it, but only as a bucket to collect daily/weekly req. Edited January 13, 2014 by Nemarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 They can always buff it in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 They can always buff it in the future. Absolutely not the right attitude to take. My initial impression of the new gunship was "wow, this is crap, it doesn't have any of those broken mechanics the mangler/quarrel has". Which says more for the state of current gunships than the new ones, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Simply put, there is absolutely no reason to fly the new Gunship variant instead of the old Gunship variant. If you compare them component by component (as I did colorfully here, they are either a tie, or the original Gunship is superior. The new Gunship simply offers no compelling reason to fly it. Sure, people will unlock it, but only as a bucket to collect daily/weekly req. Holy freaking crap. What kind of mess is that? Are they expecting someone to seriously pilot this as some sort of medium range dogfighter, just... without distortion field? Take the slowest ship, try to dogfight with it.. yeah, makes perfect sense, almost as much sense as giving the fastest ship the best weapons. Honestly these devs have no clue what they're doing. I think I'm convinced to let my subscription expire, I was hoping GSF would breathe new life into the game but wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) because the gunship we have now is the Tier 2 Gunship the Tier 1 & 3 Gunships have not been released yet... my guess is the Tier 1 will be the one new players to GSF will get whereas the Tier2 GS we currently have will cost them F•Req. to purchase and i'd bet the Tier 3 is prolly for F•Req. or CC... anyway here's the 3 Gunships... Edited January 13, 2014 by Elly_Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 because the gunship we have now is the Tier 2 Gunship the Tier 1 & 3 Gunships have not been released yet... my guess is the Tier 1 will be the one new players to GSF will get whereas the Tier2 GS we currently have will cost them F•Req. to purchase and i'd bet the Tier 3 is prolly for F•Req. or CC... anyway here's the 3 Gunships... So the Dustmaker/Comet Breaker are the T1's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 So the Dustmaker/Comet Breaker are the T1's? that's what it's looking like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I guess if that's the "free" gunship and the one we have is the equivalent to the upgraded scouts/strikes it'd be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I guess if that's the "free" gunship and the one we have is the equivalent to the upgraded scouts/strikes it'd be okay. lol, kinda takes the sting out of it being underpowered compared to what we have now, huh?.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 because the gunship we have now is the Tier 2 Gunship the Tier 1 & 3 Gunships have not been released yet... Except there's no tiering of ships in this game. Different ships within the same class aren't (supposed to be) any better or worse than any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xyrmagus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Except there's no tiering of ships in this game. Different ships within the same class aren't (supposed to be) any better or worse than any other. I love this logic. The empire and republic sides are SUPPOSED to be balanced in Warzones and StarFighter. Clearly that means they are? I'll admit that among strike fighters, the utility of a second missile vs a second blaster is questionable. But I don't think you can really say the scouts are anywhere even close. The base scout trades ~7k dampening range in sensors (which admittedly neat) for cluster missiles, quad/burst lasers, and a reactor component. It's not even remotely fair. Perhaps the "tier" system is just an artificial construct by the community, but that doesn't mean it was created out of thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Except there's no tiering of ships in this game. Different ships within the same class aren't (supposed to be) any better or worse than any other. that is clearly not what i mean... i only used the word Tier to simplify the Purchasing Order or whatever you wanna call it... like for Scouts, right now it' Blackbolt, Sting, Ocula in that order, one is your free starter the other(s) you purchase for F•Req., and a seperate one you buy with CC... later on i suspect with Scouts the inclusion of the Interceptor into the mix will place it between Sting & Ocula or Blackbolt & Sting, ya never know, but i'm betting it's another F•Req. ship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) that is clearly not what i mean... i only used the word Tier to simplify the Purchasing Order or whatever you wanna call it... like for Scouts, right now it' Blackbolt, Sting, Ocula in that order, one is your free starter the other(s) you purchase for F•Req., and a seperate one you buy with CC... later on i suspect with Scouts the inclusion of the Interceptor into the mix will place it between Sting & Ocula or Blackbolt & Sting, ya never know, but i'm betting it's another F•Req. ship... That's fair, but - as one community member to another - I think we need to stop calling them "tiers" of ships, because it's inaccurate and misleading. Sorry if I came off overly harsh. This is something I see a lot of people say, and it irritates me more than it should. I love this logic. The empire and republic sides are SUPPOSED to be balanced in Warzones and StarFighter. Clearly that means they are? Not sure what warzones have to do with this, since that's imperfect faction mirroring causing problems instead of improperly thought out class balance issues. I'll admit that among strike fighters, the utility of a second missile vs a second blaster is questionable. But I don't think you can really say the scouts are anywhere even close. The base scout trades ~7k dampening range in sensors (which admittedly neat) for cluster missiles, quad/burst lasers, and a reactor component. It's not even remotely fair. Perhaps the "tier" system is just an artificial construct by the community, but that doesn't mean it was created out of thin air. The Blackbolt is supposed to be a lightweight scout that feeds information back to the rest of the team, on the idea that knowledge is power. The Sting is supposed to be a light skirmisher with multiple escape tools. Different, but equal. Of course, that's the theory. In practice, all ships have more than enough sensor power to feed information across the relatively small battlefields we have now, and there's no special reward for seeing where an enemy is on the minimap or whatnot (if you're too far away to engage the enemy, it's often a moot point where they are; if you don't have eyes on them, it's often not hard to guess where they are). The Rycer is a heavy-duty laser platform that can switch weapons depending on circumstance and also carries missiles that hurt. The Quell carries loads of missiles so it never runs out of punch. Again, in theory, different but equal. In practice, there aren't currently many targets who will sit there and eat missile locks that can't also be torn apart by laser fire from scouts. Bombers will help here, since they have no way to shake a missile lock and have higher base armor (making them more vulnerable to heavy lasers and, perhaps, concussion missiles... and I'll probably switch my burst lasers to ignore armor, because lol stings), as will mission-critical objectives with lots of hull and armor. Ignoring the cartel market duplicates, each pair of ships - both on live and on the PTS - fills a specific role. Unfortunately, because of various balance issues, in practice the Sting and Flashfire are currently head and shoulders above everything but a good gunship. That doesn't mean the ships aren't designed to be balanced, or that the devs aren't trying to make them balanced. And maybe I'm just crying "tires don exits" in a futile optimistic hope that things will be better when there's more game types and ship classes, and you'll get a big "I told you so" out of the deal. We'll just have to see. Edited January 13, 2014 by Armonddd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 because the gunship we have now is the Tier 2 Gunship the Tier 1 & 3 Gunships have not been released yet... my guess is the Tier 1 will be the one new players to GSF will get whereas the Tier2 GS we currently have will cost them F•Req. to purchase and i'd bet the Tier 3 is prolly for F•Req. or CC... anyway here's the 3 Gunships... The ship to the left in that pic is just a scaled down version of the middle one. Sure it isn't a cut ship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemarus Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 The ship to the left in that pic is just a scaled down version of the middle one. Sure it isn't a cut ship? I don't think there are "cut" ships. I think BioWare is just pacing their release. That being said, when I heard there was a new Gunship coming, I was sure it was going to be the "dogfighter" Gunship variant that is to include ship-to-ship missiles. I actually made another post where, using datamined description of that variant, I speculated on what it would include. See my speculation here in reply to your old "how will the new Gunship compare to the old" post. I still expect that to be accurate for the "dogfighter" variant when it comes out. Even that Gunship, while not as brain-dead worthless as the Dustmaker, didn't offer a compelling advantage over the classic Gunship. The problem is that it's not the "dogfighter" variant that came out--it's this worthless "bomber" variant. Its description (which matches the one datamined months ago) literally says, "The Dustmaker gunship carries only a basic railgun but can equip heavy lasers and proton torpedoes to enact devastation from afar." This statement itself just makes NO sense. One can "enact devastation from afar" far more effectively and efficiently (and from a much greater range) using a railgun than heavy lasers or proton torpedoes. Even if you're just talking about objectives, an upgraded slug railgun has 100% armor piercing, meaning it can one-shot turrets--something a fully upgraded proton torpedo can't even do! Until we see some type of objective that actually requires proton torpedoes to destroy quickly (something with super high shields AND armor), the Dustmaker (or any other true "objective bomber") just doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xyrmagus Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Until we see some type of objective that actually requires proton torpedoes to destroy quickly (something with super high shields AND armor), the Dustmaker (or any other true "objective bomber") just doesn't make any sense. Even in this scenario, unless that objective can be 1-shot by a proton or actually required a range > 7k for whatever reason, concussion missiles would likely do a better job with 100% armor and 30% shield piercing, half the reload time, a bigger targeting arc, and a faster lockon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) The ship to the left in that pic is just a scaled down version of the middle one. Sure it isn't a cut ship? if you take a good look, the one on the left is scaled down from what we have now, and the one on the right is scaled up, it's essentially the same core with modular wings and weapons pods... much like the Nova Dive & Flashfire and the Blackbolt & Interceptor(currently unavailable) are the same ships at their cores... it's a safe bet the one on the left will be the standard starter (Free?) Gunship... Edited January 13, 2014 by Elly_Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemarus Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Even in this scenario, unless that objective can be 1-shot by a proton or actually required a range > 7k for whatever reason, concussion missiles would likely do a better job with 100% armor and 30% shield piercing, half the reload time, a bigger targeting arc, and a faster lockon. Proton torpedoes have 100% shield piercing and 100% armor piercing. So if you want to make an objective target that heavily favors use of proton torpedoes, just make the shields really high. So imagine an "objective target" with 10000 shields and 2000 hull, for example. Using PTS numbers... If concussion missiles do 1108 damage, with 28% shield piercing, they will do 310.24 damage to the hull each shot. It will take them 7 missiles to destroy the target. As they can be fired every 8.1 seconds, it would take 51.2 seconds to destroy the target (not counting reload time before first shot). If proton torpedoes do 872 damage, with 100% shield piercing, they will do 872 damage to the hull each shot. It will take them 3 torpedoes to destroy the target. As they can be fired every 14.4 seconds, it would take 32.2 seconds to destroy the target (not counting reload time before first shot). The fastest way to destroy the target would be as a Quell with both PT's and CM's. First fire a torpedo, then switch to CM and fire a missile, then switch back to PT and fire a second torpedo. 872 + 872 + 310 = 2054 hull damage And that would only take about 19 seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Even in this scenario, unless that objective can be 1-shot by a proton or actually required a range > 7k for whatever reason, concussion missiles would likely do a better job with 100% armor and 30% shield piercing, half the reload time, a bigger targeting arc, and a faster lockon. Torps have by default 100% armor and shield piercing. Also, minor nitpick, concs are 29% shield piercing (28% tomorrow). Also also, rocket pods have 20% shield piercing, in case you didn't know (I didn't). What I'd really like to see is a support ship with the ability to feed lock on data to allies. Remember how Rogue Squadron blew up super star destroyers by having one ship feed targeting data to the rest of the squadron, and then everyone fired two torps at once? Yeah, that was great, and it fits the "offensive support" role the gunship is trying to do. I dunno if it would be balanced, but it can't be any worse than slugs are currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 it's a safe bet the one on the left will be the standard starter (Free?) Gunship... Nothing personal, but I sure hope you eat those words tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espiegle Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 according to a dev post on 1/10 "I just wanted to clarify that what you're seeing in the Cartel Market and in the Galactic Starfighter Hangar on the PTS is not consistent with what you will see when 2.5.2 goes live next week." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemarus Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 if you take a good look, the one on the left is scaled down from what we have now, and the one on the right is scaled up, it's essentially the same core with modular wings and weapons pods... much like the Nova Dive & Flashfire and the Blackbolt & Interceptor(currently unavailable) are the same ships at their cores... it's a safe bet the one on the left will be the standard starter (Free?) Gunship... Looks like you were right. Dustmaker / Comet Breaker is the default Gunship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 because the gunship we have now is the Tier 2 Gunship the Tier 1 & 3 Gunships have not been released yet... my guess is the Tier 1 will be the one new players to GSF will get whereas the Tier2 GS we currently have will cost them F•Req. to purchase and i'd bet the Tier 3 is prolly for F•Req. or CC... anyway here's the 3 Gunships... So who played PTS? Is Dustmaker the one on the left or right in that pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta_V Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 So who played PTS? Is Dustmaker the one on the left or right in that pic? It's the one on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) It's the one on the right. Nice, ty. The one on the left is same as middle, but with half the features taken away. Patch note: "Premium Strongarm and Demolisher Gunships can be found in Dogfighter’s packs, providing an alternate look for the Comet Breaker/Dustmaker" Are those gonna look the same as each other? Edited January 14, 2014 by Sadishist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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