ShadowMudkip Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Shaak Ti was able to move the Chancellor, fight off squads of magnaguards, and survive against General Grievous, all at the same time during the battle of Coruscant. That merits some notice in my opinion. Edited January 20, 2014 by ShadowMudkip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Shaak Ti was able to move the Chancellor, Wait what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Wait what? She, along with another group of Jedi attempted to evacuate the Chancellor during the ground battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 She, along with another group of Jedi attempted to evacuate the Chancellor during the ground battle. Oh right, yeh. I thought you meant it was a combat accolade, because she Force Pushed him at one point. To be honest, the fact that she had such trouble with magnaguards completely invalidates that entire Fight, when other Jedi can take out 5-6 on their own, and she had trouble with 1, you get the whole Overestimation of Grevious and Co picture forming clearer. And of course, they let her win the fight against 20 of them, so that doesn't count either. All in all, the Battle of Coruscant can't really be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Oh right, yeh. I thought you meant it was a combat accolade, because she Force Pushed him at one point. To be honest, the fact that she had such trouble with magnaguards completely invalidates that entire Fight, when other Jedi can take out 5-6 on their own, and she had trouble with 1, you get the whole Overestimation of Grevious and Co picture forming clearer. And of course, they let her win the fight against 20 of them, so that doesn't count either. All in all, the Battle of Coruscant can't really be used. Wasn't that sequence a distraction? That's the impression that I got from the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Wasn't that sequence a distraction? That's the impression that I got from the show. Quick question, do the combatants have in depth knowledge on each other, like history and stuff? Or just common knowledge. I might actually have an ace card for Ventress here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Quick question, do the combatants have in depth knowledge on each other, like history and stuff? Or just common knowledge. I might actually have an ace card for Ventress here I've never thought of that before. I'll get back to you with an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I've never thought of that before. I'll get back to you with an answer. I feel I can pull out a pretty epic card for Ventress anyway, but the answer to that question will decide the win or the loss, so decide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I feel I can pull out a pretty epic card for Ventress anyway, but the answer to that question will decide the win or the loss, so decide! I think just a general historical knowledge. Nothing too specific. So in this case, Ventress would know Shaak Ti's history, but nothing specifc IE. Ti fought in the Battle of Brentaal IV, but Ventress doesn't know what Shaak Ti did in that battle outside of being a frontline fighter. This is in addition to their own knowledge of their opponents (Note that they don't know how their opponents died). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think just a general historical knowledge. Nothing too specific. So in this case, Ventress would know Shaak Ti's history, but nothing specifc IE. Ti fought in the Battle of Brentaal IV, but Ventress doesn't know what Shaak Ti did in that battle outside of being a frontline fighter. This is in addition to their own knowledge of their opponents (Note that they don't know how their opponents died). Ahh, but does Ventress know Shaak Ti let Skywalker through the Temple, who ended up killing Mace? Or does she know Ti was always considered a failure as a master because he students always died in situations other padawans could escape? Does she know Maris has fallen to the Dark Side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Ahh, but does Ventress know Shaak Ti let Skywalker through the Temple, who ended up killing Mace? Or does she know Ti was always considered a failure as a master because he students always died in situations other padawans could escape? Does she know Maris has fallen to the Dark Side? No, yes, and yes. Edit: Some further elaboration on these questions. Ventress knows Ti was at the Temple during the Showdown on Coruscant and Operation Knightfall, she knows that Ti's students were killed (but not how), and she knows that Maris fell to the Dark Side. Edited January 20, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 No, yes, and yes. Cool cool, should have my argument by the end of tonight. Next hour, If I'm quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Ok, Belated argument but here goes! Pretty lucky that Shaak Ti was originally to be the first person in my analysis series... I don't think Ventress has been underestimated here, I think Dun Moch, has, and Shaak Ti has been Overestimated. For example, Rayla, forgive me if I'm missing this, but I just re-read the novelization of the fight between Starkiller and Shaak Ti, not once could I find the mention of lines "Hate flow through him," or anything similar. Her force shields were not tested in this fight. Ventress However, ripped through the force barriers of two Incredibly powerful Jedi, Skywalker and Kenobi to be exact, and that's even harder to do when they're together, given the hints that they shared a Force Bond. So yeh, Ventress was underestimated there, but I think the key to this fight is Dun Moch. Shaak Ti seemed unbalanced during their duel, and with Ventress' knowledge on her padawans, it would be fairly easy to throw her off guard. Ti held great pride in all of her learners, and yet each of them died foolhardy deaths in which most would have survived, and Brood even fell to the Dark Side. That would be enough to tip anyone over the edge, if that was to be brought up. Especially by a Sith, (or Sith in the eyes of the Jedi) who Ti obviously grew to hate during her exile. And to bring up part of the novel that I found interesting, Ti was willing to kill herself and Starkiller at the same time, In fact, that's what she aimed to do, ceremonial death and all that. She literally had him on the backfoot, about to slaughter him, but she intended for them to die together. One lucky flinch and an automatic reaction from Star Killer saved her life. Now, I know what you may be thinking, surely that's a bonus to Ti's dueling skills, well not really, Starkiller hadn't fought as hard, and achieved as greatly as he did in later life, so I'm hazy on weather or not that's even an achievement. What it does show, is her wanting the Sith dead so badly, she'd kill herself, almost unnecessarily to do it. I mean come on, what kind of Jedi does that? Also, I feel the Uniqueness of Ventress' style is surely an advantage, not disadvantage, it threw most Jedi off guard the first time they met her, because they study very much out of books, Holocrons and each other, they've never seen that diversity before. Her Style allows her a quick off the bat advantage against people she hasn't faced for prolonged amounts of time before. Pretty rambly post, hope I got the point across Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (but not how) I'd challenge that, it was common knowledge in the order, enough for them to not take her as seriously as many other councilors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) I am pointing out that she has successfully defended against attacks from freaking Starkiller, a good Force Choke from Ventress isn't going to kill one of the best and when I say best i don't just mean 'master swordsman' like a bunch of others in the Order, I mean one of the best all around warriors in the entire Jedi Order at the time. I challenge that as well, she was in one of the strongest Force Nexus' in the galaxy... As for her keeping the planet in check, I doubt that. The Dark side wasn't constantly attacking the planet and trying to claim it, it tainted it yes, and what happens with the dark side is it slowly turns the inhabitants to the Dark Side, which then turns the planet. Ti keeping the planet in the Light, was her training the Felucians and the Shamans. Ti single handedly holding it back doesn't make any sense, to me. Edited January 20, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'd challenge that, it was common knowledge in the order, enough for them to not take her as seriously as many other councilors... Common knowledge in the Order. I'm trying to keep it reasonable. Ventress knows they were killed, but not the specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Common knowledge in the Order. I'm trying to keep it reasonable. Ventress knows they were killed, but not the specifics. Seems fair. She doesn't need the specifics. Edit: Forgot the last piece of the puzzle, the way Jedi (Skywalker, Kenobi, Koon, Windu, Fisto, Yoda, Piell) react to Dun Moch is typically to throw it back at the Sith, and Ti would know Ventress was betrayed and the Nightsisters wiped out because of her, which would probably send Ventress into the rage needed to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Firstly, Galen Marek is almost always unleashing his raw power on a consistent basis, which is the explanation for why he managed to guide down the Star Destroyer, if he hadn't have repeatedly pushed himself to the edge almost all the time in combat, that attempt with the Force likely would have killed him. He continues to hit her with his powerful Force attacks (which is what they always are) and she simply weathers the beating and goes right back at him and puts him down to. And as far as it not being a feat that Shaak Ti out-right over-whelmed him and almost killed him... that makes no sense, Shaak Ti was Marek's final test, right afterwards Vader moved forward with their plan, Starkiller either had reached the level of power he managed before his death or he was damn close to it, so I see no reason to believe that this is not a great feat, she over-whelmed him out-right. It's also stated clearly in the canon she was 'the sole beacon of light holding the darkness at bay' on Felucia. Also dual-wielding is nice and all, until you realise she was training Maris Brood in exactly that..... she also like Yoda and Cin Drallig actively helped in training all the students in all the different styles of Lightsaber combat. Let us also take a look at what Shaak Ti managed to achieve as a lightsaber master: she completely mastered Ataru and Makashi, gaining the strengths of both whilst at the same time eliminating their inherent weaknesses, something even Count Dooku couldn't truly do. She was an expert at using her environment in conjunction with her masterful acrobatic displays and Kenobi recognised this, she was a highly cunning duellist and knew how to exploit her surroundings. She also has high tolerance for pain and has immense stamina, she has taken a severe thrashing at the hands of Grievous after spending days fighting over-whelming separatist forces, she has even taken a direct blaster shot to the chest and managed to Force Heal herself, not dying instantly, furthermore she is able to self-regulate her body and keep herself alive. Also Shaak Ti being taunted to anger by Dun Moch seems way too far out of character to me, not only is she a very wise master but when one of her apprentices (I forget which one) tries to accuse her of attempting to get them killed and they end up dead themselves, Shaak Ti shows little emotion and only bemoans them for taking the path of anger and getting themselves killed for it. It also makes zero sense that she would go after Ventress or any Dark Jedi simply for being a Dark Sider, not only does she spare Maris Brood who is a borderline Dark Jedi but she even attempts to quell the hatred Brood has for the Sith, Master Ti has far too much Jedi wisdom to fall for Dun Moch and be driven to anger. Also also isn't one to use Dun Moch or any variation of it herself, she remains calm and centred and always attempts to defuse a situation or give her own council, even in combat. Edited January 21, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Firstly, Galen Marek is almost always unleashing his raw power on a consistent basis, which is the explanation for why he managed to guide down the Star Destroyer, if he hadn't have repeatedly pushed himself to the edge almost all the time in combat, that attempt with the Force likely would have killed him. And yet there is a Direct quote saying he gains power with Each and Every mission. Also, he seemed to have trouble with the masters before her, or at least, found them challenging. He obviously grew more and more powerful even after Felucia, just because he was summoned by Vader doesn't mean he reached the height of his power, he could have been attracting too much attention. Hell, we know the Emperors spies followed him to Vader, how do we know that wasn't the Only reason? And again, Vader didn't want to take out the Emperor yet, he had to fake Starkillers death. He continues to hit her with his powerful Force attacks (which is what they always are) and she simply weathers the beating and goes right back at him and puts him down to. Whilst in a Force Nexus. And as far as it not being a feat that Shaak Ti out-right over-whelmed him and almost killed him... that makes no sense, Shaak Ti was Marek's final test, right afterwards Vader moved forward with their plan, Starkiller either had reached the level of power he managed before his death or he was damn close to it, so I see no reason to believe that this is not a great feat, she over-whelmed him out-right. She killed herself doing it. I'd put that down to definitely not being a feat. Anyone can put the opponent on the back toe whilst leaving themselves completely open. It's also stated clearly in the canon she was 'the sole beacon of light holding the darkness at bay' on Felucia. Hate to be blunt, but doesn't mean squat. My theory of her holding the Darkness at Bay via the Shamans is just as valid as your theory. Also dual-wielding is nice and all, until you realise she was training Maris Brood in exactly that..... she also like Yoda and Cin Drallig actively helped in training all the students in all the different styles of Lightsaber combat. Maris' style was dramatically different, like... Really different. We've also got to note, Dual wielding was never common among Jedi. Let us also take a look at what Shaak Ti managed to achieve as a lightsaber master: she completely mastered Ataru and Makashi, gaining the strengths of both whilst at the same time eliminating their inherent weaknesses, something even Count Dooku couldn't truly do. I don't doubt that. She was an expert at using her environment in conjunction with her masterful acrobatic displays and Kenobi recognised this, she was a highly cunning duellist and knew how to exploit her surroundings. No environment to exploit here, and Kenobi has said the exact same about Ventress. Hell, the phrase "No one Jedi can take on Ventress alone" has been thrown around. Not whilst on Ventress' terms at least. She also has high tolerance for pain and has immense stamina, she has taken a severe thrashing at the hands of Grievous after spending days fighting over-whelming separatist forces, she has even taken a direct blaster shot to the chest and managed to Force Heal herself, not dying instantly, furthermore she is able to self-regulate her body and keep herself alive. Ventress was capable of the Sith trance, they've both pretty much shown the same levels of self healing here. Also Shaak Ti being taunted to anger by Dun Moch seems way too far out of character to me, not only is she a very wise master but when one of her apprentices (I forget which one) tries to accuse her of attempting to get them killed and they end up dead themselves, Shaak Ti shows little emotion and only bemoans them for taking the path of anger and getting themselves killed for it. She was taunted by Marek, quite a bit. She also taunted him, doesn't seem out of character to me at all. It also makes zero sense that she would go after Ventress or any Dark Jedi simply for being a Dark Sider, not only does she spare Maris Brood who is a borderline Sith but she even attempts to quell the hatred Brood has for the Sith, Master Ti has far too much Jedi wisdom to fall for Dun Moch and be driven to anger. She has to kill Ventress here, no way around it. After all those years in exile she hated the Sith, hell you saw her reaction when Marek showed up. Edited January 21, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also Shaak Ti being taunted to anger by Dun Moch seems way too far out of character to me, not only is she a very wise master but when one of her apprentices (I forget which one) tries to accuse her of attempting to get them killed and they end up dead themselves, Shaak Ti shows little emotion and only bemoans them for taking the path of anger and getting themselves killed for it. I know which comic you are referring to, but I don't think it was one of Ti's students. I would have to pull the comic out to verify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) No environment to exploit here, As a reminder, here is the environment description: A massive domed structure rises from the swamps of Nal Hutta. The walls are made of solid twelve-inch thick durasteel lined with Cortosis ore. Using atmosphere and climate control technology from Dorin, the Hutts transformed the field of battle into a desert wasteland. The skeletons of mighty rancors, nexu, reek, and other creatures litter the field, serving as places of cover or traps to trip up combatants. At the center is a mound that will serve as the starting point for sentient fighters. There are plenty of bones to use as projectiles or as obstacles. Edited January 21, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) And yet there is a Direct quote saying he gains power with Each and Every mission. Also, he seemed to have trouble with the masters before her, or at least, found them challenging. He obviously grew more and more powerful even after Felucia, just because he was summoned by Vader doesn't mean he reached the height of his power, he could have been attracting too much attention. Hell, we know the Emperors spies followed him to Vader, how do we know that wasn't the Only reason? And again, Vader didn't want to take out the Emperor yet, he had to fake Starkillers death. You aren't getting my point however, you claim that her being able to put Starkiller down and out not just once or twice, but three separate times, is not impressive, yet it definitely is, he was still extremely powerful and Sidious' own thoughts on him the first time he meets him are: "Such a pity, from the moment I met the boy his power was already eclipsing that of his 'master', I could see the Force inside him, it was a violent storm only growing in it's urgency and devastation, yet I knew this boy would be my down-fall if I did not put him down immediately. I even presented the naive fool with a place at my side, but Vader's absolute lack of ability in training a youth sufficiently turned him into as much a fool as the Jedi Order that is now a memory." Yeh I don't know about you but Sidious' opinion makes it blatantly clear that Starkiller is already nearly as powerful as Vader was and that's all the evidence I need. Whilst in a Force Nexus. A living planet strong with the Force =/= Force Nexus, Felucia has never been stated to be a Force Nexus, more like a living organism with a symbiotic relationship, it is also never stated that Shaak Ti draws power from the planet, in-fact almost the opposite happens, she has to use her own power to stop it from becoming tainted with Dark Side corruption, something that is stated quite clearly in three separate sources. She killed herself doing it. I'd put that down to definitely not being a feat. Anyone can put the opponent on the back toe whilst leaving themselves completely open. Actually she doesn't leave herself open at all, she tries to take them both out, not because she is suicidal, you seem to have missed the point of what she was doing and why she was doing it, she wanted Vader to believe that they had both died and she didn't want Maris Brood's existence to be noticed by the Sith, she wants to take out Vader's 'disciple' so he can't find Brood either and wants to kill herself so she causes a disturbance in the Force and let's Vader know she's dead. It's all to save Maris Brood from the Sith, hence why she sends her away instead of keping her by her side to take him down together, then all that would happen is Vader turns up himself and kills them both. Hate to be blunt, but doesn't mean squat. My theory of her holding the Darkness at Bay via the Shamans is just as valid as your theory. There are also direct statements that before Ti and Brood arrived the Felucian tribes and the planet itself was already being corrupted by the Dark Side and Ti did her best to reverse the process, she was the only thing standing in the way of the entire planet going Dark Side. Maris' style was dramatically different, like... Really different. We've also got to note, Dual wielding was never common among Jedi. The point isn't the precise style Ventress uses but the fact she has not only witnessed dual-wielding but trained Maris Brood in it, oh and there were actually quite a few Jedi that used dual blades in the Order, anywhere near as much as traditional single blades? no, but that can be said of every era in Star Wars. No environment to exploit here, and Kenobi has said the exact same about Ventress. Hell, the phrase "No one Jedi can take on Ventress alone" has been thrown around. Not whilst on Ventress' terms at least. A desert wasteland battle ground littered with the corpses and skeletons of giant beasties? sounds like a perfect environment for not only a masterful Ataru wielder but also perfect for someone that uses not only Telekinesis but Alter Environment as well. Ventress was capable of the Sith trance, they've both pretty much shown the same levels of self healing here. Shaak Ti's variation is however nearly instantaneous whereas Ventress' is a trance, a clear edge goes to Master Ti, also I would like to see Ventress survive a blaster bolt in the dead centre of her chest in any manner close to how Ti did. She was taunted by Marek, quite a bit. She also taunted him, doesn't seem out of character to me at all. Which basically fails, it doesn't spark her into some fit of rage or unbalance her, she just rebuffs his efforts and not with any form of taunt either, she basically preaches that the Sith will always betray each other and his path is one of destruction, quite different from the likes of say Obi-Wan Kenobi. She has to kill Ventress here, no way around it. After all those years in exile she hated the Sith, hell you saw her reaction when Marek showed up. Something she has no qualms about, oh and she did not hate the Sith not at all, I have no idea where you're getting that from, not only does she only consider the survival of the Jedi and their traditions but she tries to repeatedly teach Maris Brood to abandon her anger and hatred for the Sith, the Empire and their persecution of the Jedi, something she wouldn't bother to do if she truly hated the Sith as you suggest. Oh and she had seen Marek's arrival coming for some time, it was not a shock to her at all, in-fact she guides him to her ambush in the first place. Edited January 21, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also Shaak Ti being taunted to anger by Dun Moch seems way too far out of character to me, not only is she a very wise master but when one of her apprentices (I forget which one) tries to accuse her of attempting to get them killed and they end up dead themselves, Shaak Ti shows little emotion and only bemoans them for taking the path of anger and getting themselves killed for it. Okay, before I try to correct you I have a question: is this in reference to Lyshaa during the Battle of Brentaal IV? But in response to this comment: Shaak Ti's variation is however nearly instantaneous whereas Ventress' is a trance, a clear edge goes to Master Ti, also I would like to see Ventress survive a blaster bolt in the dead centre of her chest in any manner close to how Ti did. Shaak Ti's Force Healing was not near-instantaneous. It was a good amount of time before Ti recovered to attack Shogar Tok. Though the argument could be made that she was waiting for the right time (even though it doesn't seem like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Okay, before I try to correct you I have a question: is this in reference to Lyshaa during the Battle of Brentaal IV? But in response to this comment: Shaak Ti's Force Healing was not near-instantaneous. It was a good amount of time before Ti recovered to attack Shogar Tok. Though the argument could be made that she was waiting for the right time (even though it doesn't seem like that). I don't remember, I was skimming through an omnibus of all sorts of Clone Wars stuff and in one of the stories she gets accused of trying to get them killed and she rebuffs them in passing after they get themselves killed in their anger. I will have to try and remember where it's from. Also I remember quite specifically that she was too busy avoiding Tok to use her powers and once she regains consciousness she immediately heals herself. Edited January 21, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) I don't remember, I was skimming through an omnibus of all sorts of Clone Wars stuff and in one of the stories she gets accused of trying to get them killed and she rebuffs them in passing after they get themselves killed in their anger. I will have to try and remember where it's from. Also I remember quite specifically that she was too busy avoiding Tok to use her powers and once she regains consciousness she immediately heals herself. Well, I think I have the comic (Catspaw, is it?) in question so you don't have to remember it. The accuser in question was Lyshaa, a Zeltron looking to make a name for herself. To do this she murdered one of Shaak Ti's Padawans (one Fe Sun). Throughout their interactions, Lyshaa constantly pointed this out to Ti, who did nothing more than ignore or attempt reconciliation with her. As for the healing part, I don't think it was immediate. She seems to be struggling a bit, but I can't see a blaster wound on her. I'll concede the point now that I've reviewed the events. Edited January 21, 2014 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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