What makes gunships problematic?

[Vandicus]

Post your reasons.

 

Currently they can 2 shot any ship with sufficient upgrades, and 1 shot on a crit.

 

My primary take on this is that the shield piercing is an issue. Their dps is only on par with other ships if its not being done directly to the hull. A TTK of 0(crit against any ship) is impossible to counter. Being in red hull damage(dead if you're a scout) after a single shot is extremely difficult to counter.

[Kuciwalker]

I'm somewhat more concerned with the ability to 1-shot on a non-crit, via bypass.

[Vandicus]

I'm somewhat more concerned with the ability to 1-shot on a non-crit, via bypass.

 

That'd be scouts right? Also an issue with shield piercing.

[Ramalina]

Gunships are extremely vulnerable to scout pilots that know what they're doing.

 

At ranges of 5000 to 17000 m or so gunships are very deadly. So use cover or speed to get across this zone and then they really aren't all that difficult to kill.

 

To recap: counter gunships by staying out of their optimal kill zone, and by shooting them down with starships ideally suited to shooting down gunships.

 

This isn't to say that strike fighters are helpless against gunships, they just have to work at it a bit harder than gunships and scouts.

 

I'd also note that if people crew intelligently and spend requisition on survivability related gear instead of dumping it all into weapons upgrades it's possible to become a real pain in the rear to shoot down. Even for gunships to shoot down. Of course the tradeoff is that you don't do nearly as much damage or get as many kills.

[Ramalina]

Oh, of course I left out the most important part.

 

Situational awareness.

 

The gunship you don't see, or that you ignore will easily rip your ship apart.

 

However, that's true for all ship classes not some sort of special property of gunships.

[Idunhavaname]

Gunships parallels the role of snipers in FPS. They can be devastating if left ignored but useless if someone continues to pursue them.

[Vandicus]

The less upgraded gunships(who do not 1-2 shot me) are not a problem for me.

 

A fully upgraded gunship will 1-shot my strike fighter on a crit. No saving throw.

Without crits, I'm 2-shotted. This is with full shields in both cases. I'm able to react here, but its unlikely that I'll be able to cross the range before they get a second shot off.

 

If I'm in a scout, I'm always 1-shotted. I'd need to know their location beforehand to kill them once.

[Andryah]

The less upgraded gunships(who do not 1-2 shot me) are not a problem for me.

 

A fully upgraded gunship will 1-shot my strike fighter on a crit. No saving throw.

Without crits, I'm 2-shotted. This is with full shields in both cases. I'm able to react here, but its unlikely that I'll be able to cross the range before they get a second shot off.

 

If I'm in a scout, I'm always 1-shotted. I'd need to know their location beforehand to kill them once.

 

Don't get hit.

 

Let heavier defense ships be the rabbit to the wolf. Then swarm the wolf.

 

Honestly... teamwork and situational awareness marginalizes Gunships. From there.. you simply must make them priority one for elimination so you can move on to other things.

 

The thing you need to worry about it the next phase of player team tactics.. where good teams figure out how to protect Gunships well.... which will result in some interesting shifts in game play.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Vandicus]

Don't get hit.

 

Let heavier defense ships be the rabbit to the wolf. Then swarm the wolf.

 

Honestly... teamwork and situational awareness marginalizes Gunships. From there.. you simply must make them priority one for elimination so you can move on to other things.

 

The thing you need to worry about it the next phase of player team tactics.. where good teams figure out how to protect Gunships well.... which will result in some interesting shifts in game play.

 

Generally speaking, its not possible to avoid the first hit from a gunship intentionally.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

IMO what makes them problematic is that you don't get a clear warning that you're being targeted. I'm not 100% positive but I think when a GS starts targeting you it triggers your missile lock warning as I've gotten a lot of lock warnings, suddenly get hit by a GS railgun instead and once the railgun hit lands the missile lock warning goes away.

 

Which if the railgun is indeed triggering the missile lock is very confusing in the middle of a dogfight since avoiding them requires different tactics.

[Itkovian]

Generally speaking, its not possible to avoid the first hit from a gunship intentionally.

 

That's true enough.

 

Though to be fair, I think the main problem with gunships is that they are intrusive.

 

Basically, people will be happily dogfighting, minding their own business, then BAM, gunship hit. Now they need to stop what they're doing and run like heck, and possibly track down their attacker and figure out what to do.

 

So, while gunships can and ARE countered by good teams, this will never take away the feeling of frustration dogfighters get whenever they are suddenly targeted. And when dealing with a coordinated gunship group, it forces people to avoid doing what they like the most in GS and either give up the fight in their area, deal with the gunships, or head for another location.

 

And that really is the main issue. Gunships can essentially dominate an area and prevent people from doing waht they enjoy the most, and so that frustrates people.

 

How much this is a problem that needs fixing is certainly up for debate: Gunships certainly add depth to the gameplay, but I doubt the complaints will ever go away (and the same will be said of all future roles introduced).

[Brewski]

Generally speaking, its not possible to avoid the first hit from a gunship intentionally.

 

I strongly disagree with this. If one knows where to look, and what approach to make to an objective, gunships will rarely see you coming at all, and even more rarely will be able to target you. There are a finite number of places gunships can effectively hide, and a large number of ways to approach those locations without being targeted. You just need to know.

 

Never, for example, boost straight at an objective from your spawn point if the objective is already owned by the other side. There will be a gunship there, waiting to take out everyone who tries this, and they usually only die when there are too many people boosting in to kill.

 

I died a grand total of three times to one shot hits in my scout this weekend. Compare that to dozens of gunship kills in the same amount of time.

 

Like many things, it's just a matter of learning the right tactics.

[Lymain]

Gunships parallels the role of snipers in FPS. They can be devastating if left ignored but useless if someone continues to pursue them.

 

It's like (Marksman) Snipers in ground PvP, too. Be aware of line of sight and don't let them "freecast."

[Andryah]

Generally speaking, its not possible to avoid the first hit from a gunship intentionally.

 

Nothing is fullproof.. however there is absolutely no reason in general for a scout to ever be hit by a Gunship IMO.

 

1) Trapezium style maneuver based on the geometry of the trapizoids. You become more trouble to a Gunship then you are worth to be honest. Angles work against Gunships. And always take advantage of three dimensions.

 

2) Give the Gunship an obvious "rabbit" to target... one that is deliberately enticing to target.. and configured for survivability. You can even just go with a "canary" to sacrifice if you are up against a really good Gunshipper.

 

3) Teamwork.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Vandicus]

I strongly disagree with this. If one knows where to look, and what approach to make to an objective, gunships will rarely see you coming at all, and even more rarely will be able to target you. There are a finite number of places gunships can effectively hide, and a large number of ways to approach those locations without being targeted. You just need to know.

 

Never, for example, boost straight at an objective from your spawn point if the objective is already owned by the other side. There will be a gunship there, waiting to take out everyone who tries this, and they usually only die when there are too many people boosting in to kill.

 

I died a grand total of three times to one shot hits in my scout this weekend. Compare that to dozens of gunship kills in the same amount of time.

 

Like many things, it's just a matter of learning the right tactics.

 

Well I've definitely got way more gunship kills than how many times I've been killed by a gunship. I've probably got more gunship kills than I've ever been killed.

 

How would you avoid a gunship without knowing where they are? Especially in the initial rush towards objectives at the start of the match? Should I just devote my entire game to hunting gunships and avoiding objectives(which is actually necessary against a fully upgraded gunship as that makes it impossible to dogfight anywhere they cover).

 

Its easier to hit someone with a gunship shot than with regular laser cannons(though with regular laser cannons you get more tries). Yet this guarantees a one-shot against scouts, regardless of the skill level of the scout player, and a 2 shot against strikes, with a good chance of one-shoting. There's too little margin for people playing against any reasonably competent gunship.

 

I suggested a nerf to the crit buff active(and a substantial nerf was applied) during closed beta for the very same reason. Played perfectly at that time, a scout vs strike fighter with the strike fighter using a crit buff basically guaranteed the scout would die before getting in range.

 

The shield-piercing active buff was removed from the game precisely because it allowed one-shotting. This has previously been viewed as a problem. That gunships are again able to one-shot people(which led them to being nerfed to near uselessness at one point during testing), will probably again be viewed as a problem.

[HoboWithAStick]

I personally think gunships are a little too strong but only because they have the potential to one shot scouts. I don't think any ship should be able to get 1 shot, if this was changed I think it would be fine.

[Vandicus]

Nothing is fullproof.. however there is absolutely no reason in general for a scout to ever be hit by a Gunship IMO.

 

1) Trapezium style maneuver based on the geometry of the trapizoids. You become more trouble to a Gunship then you are worth to be honest. Angles work against Gunships. And always take advantage of three dimensions.

 

2) Give the Gunship an obvious "rabbit" to target... one that is deliberately enticing to target.. and configured for survivability. You can even just go with a "canary" to sacrifice if you are up against a really good Gunshipper.

 

3) Teamwork.

 

Assumption being that the scout knows where the gunship is before the gunship knows where the scout is. That's why I said its generally impossible to avoid the first shot. You don't know where the gunship is yet.

[Andryah]

How would you avoid a gunship without knowing where they are? Especially in the initial rush towards objectives at the start of the match?

 

1) assess how many are in play on the opposing team at the start.

2) assess where would you likely be if you were a Gunship.

3) probe with a rabbit as bait and some maneuver scouts to confirm locations.

 

The above, by the way will not work well for a true sniper personality in a Gunship... but I really don't think at this point most Gunship players are true sniper players. If you run up against a true sniper personality player.. you have your hands full IMO. His job is not to kill players per se, but to deny the playfield to them by making them scared of their own shadows.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Wefi]

Upgrade your shields......

[Itkovian]

I strongly disagree with this. If one knows where to look, and what approach to make to an objective, gunships will rarely see you coming at all, and even more rarely will be able to target you. There are a finite number of places gunships can effectively hide, and a large number of ways to approach those locations without being targeted. You just need to know.

 

Never, for example, boost straight at an objective from your spawn point if the objective is already owned by the other side. There will be a gunship there, waiting to take out everyone who tries this, and they usually only die when there are too many people boosting in to kill.

 

I died a grand total of three times to one shot hits in my scout this weekend. Compare that to dozens of gunship kills in the same amount of time.

 

Like many things, it's just a matter of learning the right tactics.

 

Now then, that's just getting a bit silly: there is more to a match than "look for Gunship and avoid its attack." The whole POINT of gunships is they lie unseen in the distance and shoot unsuspecting targets.

 

If someone is busy capping an objective or dogfighting someone, there really IS no way to avoid that first shot from a skilled gunship pilot. No matter how much one maneuvers around, a good gunship will nail you, and you simply CANNOT always be busy finding and hiding from gunships, because there's more to a match than doing that.

 

So, in fact, if you're busy doing something other than finding gunships (and even then, that's not a guarantee you'll find it before it hits you of course, never mind if there's more than one on the prowl), there's very little that can be done to avoid the first shot.

 

Once THAT happens however, a bunch of options open of course, but let's not sit there and pretend that people should be expected to avoid that first shot. It ain't happening, not if they're busy actually trying to win the match (which is not, after all, "hunt the gunships").

 

Given this, the ability to have single-shot kills is definitely an issue, and there seems to be a fell convergence between bypass and upgraded slug railgun at the very least, which makes one-shots quite plausible on scouts.

[Brewski]

How would you avoid a gunship without knowing where they are? Especially in the initial rush towards objectives at the start of the match? Should I just devote my entire game to hunting gunships and avoiding objectives(which is actually necessary against a fully upgraded gunship as that makes it impossible to dogfight anywhere they cover).

 

Well, first, if you are in a scout there is no way a gunship will beat you to the objective in the initial rush. I've never been hit by anything while boosting in for the initial capture, let alone by the slow, ponderous gunship that runs out of boost a third of the way there.

 

After the initial rush, I never approach directly. I come in at an angle off the beaten path. You get to know them better the more you play it, but to start with aim between two objectives until you are about half way in, and then turn toward the one you are trying to reach. That makes it so you are not coming in on the two most common paths. (Directly from the spawn or directly from an adjacent objective.)

 

As to knowing where they are, I don't. However, after hunting them a while you start to notice trends for where they like to hide. Then you just come up on those locations from behind and scan them for red boxes. Nothing there? Try the next one. You will find them eventually so long as you don't come straight in.

 

Finally, on whether or not you focus only on gunships, for me the answer is yes. I have ships dedicated to each role I want to play, and which one I select every time I spawn depends on the situation. One scout is for speed and taking objectives only, another scout exclusively for gunship hunting, and a striker for heavier assaults and dog fighting. I start with my fast scout, and after I die, I pick one of the others depending on the situation. I hope to eventually develop two more situational roles as well, but I'm focusing on those three for now.

 

Who knows, maybe someday I'll even find a gunship role I can play with out getting splattered all over the wall. (I really stink at playing gunships...)

[Itkovian]

Assumption being that the scout knows where the gunship is before the gunship knows where the scout is. That's why I said its generally impossible to avoid the first shot. You don't know where the gunship is yet.

 

Exactly, and the only way you can avoid that is by constantly looking for gunships, at which point you are no longer playing the ACTUAL objective of the match.

 

Granted, in a match where gunships are known to prowl, some scouts should definitely dedicate themselves to gunship hunting, but that doesn't mean that is absolutely what all scouts should do. Sometimes they need to go cap points, sometimes they need to go and defend their sats, or sometimes they need to fight for their lives and take out some enemies.

 

In those situations, which are PLENTIFUL and UNAVOIDABLE (unless you really are totally dedicated to hunting gunships), there is no way you can really avoid that first shot from a sneaky gunship. It's going to happen, and then a good pilot will know how to react and avoid the next shot... but if there's a way to get a one-shotted (from full health and shields) with no warning whatsoever, then there's a problem.

[Brewski]

Now then, that's just getting a bit silly: there is more to a match than "look for Gunship and avoid its attack." The whole POINT of gunships is they lie unseen in the distance and shoot unsuspecting targets.

 

If someone is busy capping an objective or dogfighting someone, there really IS no way to avoid that first shot from a skilled gunship pilot. No matter how much one maneuvers around, a good gunship will nail you, and you simply CANNOT always be busy finding and hiding from gunships, because there's more to a match than doing that.

 

So, in fact, if you're busy doing something other than finding gunships (and even then, that's not a guarantee you'll find it before it hits you of course, never mind if there's more than one on the prowl), there's very little that can be done to avoid the first shot.

 

Once THAT happens however, a bunch of options open of course, but let's not sit there and pretend that people should be expected to avoid that first shot. It ain't happening, not if they're busy actually trying to win the match (which is not, after all, "hunt the gunships").

 

Given this, the ability to have single-shot kills is definitely an issue, and there seems to be a fell convergence between bypass and upgraded slug railgun at the very least, which makes one-shots quite plausible on scouts.

 

As I said in my other post, I don't get hit that way because I spend my time in a scout exclusively hunting gunships. By filling that role, I never come in to an objective on a direct path, and only rarely find myself fighting around one. As such I almost never get one shotted. It happens, it's just rare.

 

A few good gunship hunters can negate the effectiveness of the other sides gunships allowing the other scouts and strikers to take and hold the objectives.

[Vandicus]

Given this, the ability to have single-shot kills is definitely an issue, and there seems to be a fell convergence between bypass and upgraded slug railgun at the very least, which makes one-shots quite plausible on scouts.

 

Had it happen to me on the Rycer. Pretty sure it was a crit because it normally takes 2 shots from the players(1 to red, 2 to dead). A ship with that level of upgrade will always 1 shot scouts.

 

Base un-upgraded gameplay is fairly balanced. Upgraded strikes vs upgraded scouts seem fairly balanced. Upgraded gunships are reminiscent of the bombers of the pass. Sure under certain circumstances you can beat them, and you can put forth effort to create those circumstances, namely when you aren't playing the objective(one of the issues with bombers was that their dominant area in the game was fighting on satellites, which being the only way to win the game, meant that playing bombers was the way to win matches), but how are you supposed to then win the game?

[Itkovian]

As I said in my other post, I don't get hit that way because I spend my time in a scout exclusively hunting gunships. By filling that role, I never come in to an objective on a direct path, and only rarely find myself fighting around one. As such I almost never get one shotted. It happens, it's just rare.

 

A few good gunship hunters can negate the effectiveness of the other sides gunships allowing the other scouts and strikers to take and hold the objectives.

 

Well, I did address that in my posts: if you hunt gunships exclusively, then you're golden and you are correct.

 

But there's more for scouts to do than hunt gunships, after all, and you can't expect all scout pilots to be focused on that role alone.

 

And regardless, nothing should have the power to one-shot you without any warning, as a simple matter of game balance and fun-factor (it is just Not Fun to get one-shotted, and Not Fun is bad ).