Guardian Opening Rotation

[Starlite_Chobo]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering if I can get some advice from some experienced raiding guardians/juggs on a strong opening rotation to maximize snap threat. While I've generally been doing ok, now that my raiding group is in nearly min-maxed 78 gear (minus mainhands), there have been a few pulls where I will lose threat early on. I used to open something along the lines of:

 

Combat Focus + Leap

Sweep

Guardian Slash + Riposte

(Taunt)

Sunder

Masterstrike

Bladestorm

(AOE Taunt)

Hilt Strike

Etc.

 

But have now been moving to:

 

Combat Focus + Leap

Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt

Hilt Strike

Sweep

Masterstrike, AOE Taunt

Etc.

 

I'm not at all sure that that's best, and actually I fear that a dps can pull aggro before masterstike ends and the 2nd taunt goes out. It'd be nice to get sweep in earlier for the armor debuff to help the raid (and for the accuracy debuff) but I noticed would sometimes lose threat for an instant when trying to squeeze it in at the beginning. Also, blade barricade from bladestorm comes very late, which isn't ideal. Maybe sneaking bladestorm in between sweep and masterstrike would be ok if there is focus/rage for it...

 

I'd love some advice. There is a little bit of discussion of opening rotations in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690267&page=2 but I wanted to pose the question squarely. Thanks in advance.

[SithTyre]

Alright for those fights where you know the dps is going to push it and there are a few toons that can and will pull aggro at the start, here is a rotation to keep the mob on you (for Jugg tank):

 

Enrage (stacks of rage)

Saber throw (ranged attack small dmg- 4k-5k threat)

Leap (3-4k threat)

Force Scream (6-10k threat)

>>possible dps pull here if they were popping all their adrenals, procs, etc<<<

Single taunt (threat modifier)>>>you now have it back for at least six seconds big threat increased here

Saber Reflect (increased threat)

Smash (armor debuff)

Crushing Blow (increased threat)

Backhand (increased threat)

AOE taunt (increased threat modifier and another lock to you for 6 seconds)

Retaliation

Ravage

Single taunt again (should be ready by now). By this time your threat number should be stellar.

 

That mob should NOT get off you. Continue to use single on cool-down and your dmg/defensive rotation.

 

Now, this is not the preferred method to use that first single taunt effectively for the threat modifier nor is it the best to get your defensive abilities all up, but it will give you some bit of modified threat and ensure the mob is on you for 6 more seconds while you generate more threat with no risk of someone yanking off you. Your question was posed about people yanking off you, this should work to fix that.

 

On another note, if they do pull off you remember when you do use a taunt, you instantly go to the top of dps chart plus 10% more threat than that person (if it was a melee) or plus 25%? more threat if it was a ranged that pulled.

That is why it is always better to wait a little bit, if dps yanks off you, to maximize the threat modifier from a taunt- but you don't want people dying either.

In essence, its a chain taunt fluff trying to keep first the single, then the aoe taunt up with no intermission for 12 seconds. The third taunt (when your single is off cool down) is gonna be the one that really gives you a big jump in threat as it will continue adding that extra percent of the current highest dps person to your threat.

 

Nefra is a great way to really see how that taunt modifier works. Use PARSEC and have the pop-out overlay for threat up. I think by the end of the last nefra fight I was at 47 million threat (I got the last taunt off), my co-tank was at about 36 million or so. The top dps was under a million threat. The reason was both of us tanks kept spamming our taunts whenever they were off cool down. We just kept modifying off each other and kept leap-frogging the threat.

 

The longer the fight goes, the better your taunts work. The worst is, obviously, when you first start and everyone is at zero for threat.

Edited December 8, 2013 by SithTyre

[Vaidinah]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering if I can get some advice from some experienced raiding guardians/juggs on a strong opening rotation to maximize snap threat. While I've generally been doing ok, now that my raiding group is in nearly min-maxed 78 gear (minus mainhands), there have been a few pulls where I will lose threat early on. I used to open something along the lines of:

 

Combat Focus + Leap

Sweep

Guardian Slash + Riposte

(Taunt)

Sunder

Masterstrike

Bladestorm

(AOE Taunt)

Hilt Strike

Etc.

 

But have now been moving to:

 

Combat Focus + Leap

Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt

Hilt Strike

Sweep

Masterstrike, AOE Taunt

Etc.

 

I'm not at all sure that that's best, and actually I fear that a dps can pull aggro before masterstike ends and the 2nd taunt goes out. It'd be nice to get sweep in earlier for the armor debuff to help the raid (and for the accuracy debuff) but I noticed would sometimes lose threat for an instant when trying to squeeze it in at the beginning. Also, blade barricade from bladestorm comes very late, which isn't ideal. Maybe sneaking bladestorm in between sweep and masterstrike would be ok if there is focus/rage for it...

 

I'd love some advice. There is a little bit of discussion of opening rotations in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690267&page=2 but I wanted to pose the question squarely. Thanks in advance.

 

The best general rotation I know of is as follows:

Saber Throw (or Force Leap) with Combat Focus

Force Sweep

Guardian Slash + Riposte

Taunt

Master Strike

Blade Storm

Hilt Strike

AoE Taunt

Force Push

Force Stasis

Sunder

 

You can interchange Master Strike and Blade Storm if you have enough Focus for BS already, but the main key is to delay Sunder as long as possible since it does terrible damage/threat and is only used for Focus gain. You can throw in Saber Reflect whenever you want (but ideally before taunts) for an extra 8.6k threat if the boss doesn't have anything for you to Reflect in the next minute (like Nefra).

[Methoxa]

Single Target :

 

Force leap

taunt

Force Scream

Retaliation

Smash

Crushing blow

Mass taunt

Backhand

Ravage

Sundering

taunt

Force scream

Smash

Crushing

 

whenever off cd retaliation. Use single taunt whenever ready, use mass taunt if possible ( at some encounters you shouldnt use it)

This rotation ensures no threat loss even on Nightmares

 

Aoe :

Force leap

Reflect

smash

crushing

force scream

retaliation

mass taunt

pyro grenade

praying ^^

Edited December 9, 2013 by Methoxa

[leto_cleon]

Personally I prefer to taunt before I leaping and then using the aoe taunt (preferably from range as well) 4 GCDs later. This is so as to taunt fluff and ensure that all your taunts are increasing your threat by 130% instead of 110%.

 

1. (Combat Focus, if you really need it)

2. Saber Throw

3. Taunt

4. Force Leap

5. 4 GCDs - Saber Reflect (if being hit by range and tech attacks), Guardian Slash + Riposte, Force Sweep, Blade Storm, Hilt Strike, (if Riposte already proc you can actually Riposte+Force Stasis and then Guardian Slash)

6. AOE Taunt (if the boss has a big targeting circle and positioning is not an issue, run towards the edge and then taunt)

 

130% taunt fluffing is a really good habit to have. For example if you current threat is 1m, a taunt that hits for 1.3m is much sweeter. If I recall correctly, for RDPS and healers to pull aggro, they would need to have 130% more threat then you. A 110% taunt is usually not enough to get aggro back.

[HBCentaurion]

(I usually do HM / NiM content, and this is from my point of view.)

 

I suggest you take the previous advice with a grain of salt. First off:

• Saber Throw is useless for gaining aggro on Operations Bosses. It puts you 1 GCD behind, and can mean the difference between keeping aggro or loosing it.
  
• Don't ever start off with a taunt.
  
• Someone mentioned using single-taunt on CD; don't! There aren't many Operation Bosses where you can use single-taunt on CD as you need it for tank swapping (Nefra is the only boss that comes to mind where you can use it on CD).
  
• Don't use Saber Reflect at the start for aggro. Saber Reflect is way to useful and only works on some attacks (ranged / force / tech). Save it for when you need it, i.e. TfB Kephess NiM laser beam, TfB NiM Force Scream.
  

 

My opening rotation:

1. Enrage
   
2. Force Leap
   
3. Smash
   
4. Crushing Blow
   
5. Retaliation
   
6. Backhand
   
7. Ravage
   
8. (Retaliation if procced)
   
9. Taunt (AOE-taunt for Sonic Barrier if you have mDPS in the group)
   
10. Sundering Assualt
    
11. Force Scream
    

 

The idea is to use all your high-aggro abilities as soon as possible. Saber Throw and Force Scream doesn't provide much aggro - that is why you don't use Saber Throw at the start and delay using Force Scream.

 

If you have a count down AND the DPS delays their attacks, you can start off with Saber Throw. I.E. a count down from 3:

3 - Enrage

2 - Saber Throw

1 - Force Leap

0 - DPS attacks / you Smash

[Methoxa]

:rak_04:Force scream gives you a shield that absorb 3.27*healinpower +setbonus which should make any jugger tank actvate force scream at the start. it absorbs nearly 3k more dmg absorb than retaliation (5%def) crushing blow (4%dmg reduction) but yeah lets use it at the end of our rotation when there is no other skill left to use (ironic). Scream should be used first because it your strongest defensive mechanism.

 

Ofc you only use taunt on cd when the encounter allows it i.e nefra, draxus,Grobthok, hands of brontes, Kephess. In case you used your single taunt already but xou have to taunt the boss you can use mass taunt if there are no adds or so.

 

Why i use taunt right after cleave is because in my raid we count from 5-0 before we engage meaning that when i force leap the orbis strike the boss.

 

At nim content you cant hold aggro with your dmg rotation ´. I do 2900 tps without taunting, everyone of our dps does more than 3,5k and they burst at the beginning up to 5k for a short duration. So you instantly would loose aggro the boss would turn eventually cleave the raid, walk out of the orbis making you wipe.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Methoxa

[HBCentaurion]

Force scream gives you a shield that absorb 3.27*healinpower +setbonus which should make any jugger tank actvate force scream at the start. it absorbs nearly 3k more dmg absorb than retaliation (5%def) crushing blow (4%dmg reduction) but yeah lets use it at the end of our rotation when there is no other skill left to use (ironic). Scream should be used first because it your strongest defensive mechanism.

 

The OP asked about "...strong opening rotation to maximize snap threat.".

 

Besides, there is no need to use Force Scream in the first few GCDs since the raid is topped off, the healers have max force / energy and are alert / focusing on the tank. If you want maximize threat - you can postpone it.

 

EDIT: You are also assuming that he runs with DPS that likes to Orbital Strike and pop adrenals / relics right off the bat (which there is really no need to). Of course you are not going to hold aggro without taunts when snipers time Orbital Strike + relic / adrenal + ambush to hit at the same time as you jump in.

Edited December 9, 2013 by HBCentaurion

[Methoxa]

Even when topped of a boss can hit you for 30k so i rather absorb some of that damage and use taunt than having best possible tps but still having to use taunt.

[Marb]

(I usually do HM / NiM content, and this is from my point of view.)

 

I suggest you take the previous advice with a grain of salt. First off:

• Saber Throw is useless for gaining aggro on Operations Bosses. It puts you 1 GCD behind, and can mean the difference between keeping aggro or loosing it.
  
• Don't ever start off with a taunt.
  
• Someone mentioned using single-taunt on CD; don't! There aren't many Operation Bosses where you can use single-taunt on CD as you need it for tank swapping (Nefra is the only boss that comes to mind where you can use it on CD).
  
• Don't use Saber Reflect at the start for aggro. Saber Reflect is way to useful and only works on some attacks (ranged / force / tech). Save it for when you need it, i.e. TfB Kephess NiM laser beam, TfB NiM Force Scream.
  

 

My opening rotation:

1. Enrage
   
2. Force Leap
   
3. Smash
   
4. Crushing Blow
   
5. Retaliation
   
6. Backhand
   
7. Ravage
   
8. (Retaliation if procced)
   
9. Taunt (AOE-taunt for Sonic Barrier if you have mDPS in the group)
   
10. Sundering Assualt
    
11. Force Scream
    

That's similar to what I use, however I do put force scream in after backhand. That ensures you get the opportunity to fit in another retaliation just before the ravage channel. If you go backhand>ravage, retaliation will light up during the ravage channel, delaying it resulting in less threat on that opening sequence.

 

If you bring force scream to the front, you do throw out the threat order, but you gain more threat by maximizing retaliation:

 

Leap > Smash > Crushing Blow+Retaliation > Backhand > Force Scream > Retaliation+Ravage

 

If retaliation procs before crushing blow (which it often does) then sticking to something similar to what you have is ideal. Moving smash down the list is also something to consider if you're really just ordering ability use by threat generated: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6929008&postcount=45

Edited December 10, 2013 by Marb

[SithTyre]

(I usually do HM / NiM content, and this is from my point of view.)

 

I suggest you take the previous advice with a grain of salt. First off:

• Saber Throw is useless for gaining aggro on Operations Bosses. It puts you 1 GCD behind, and can mean the difference between keeping aggro or loosing it.
  
• Don't ever start off with a taunt.
  
• Someone mentioned using single-taunt on CD; don't! There aren't many Operation Bosses where you can use single-taunt on CD as you need it for tank swapping (Nefra is the only boss that comes to mind where you can use it on CD).
  
• Don't use Saber Reflect at the start for aggro. Saber Reflect is way to useful and only works on some attacks (ranged / force / tech). Save it for when you need it, i.e. TfB Kephess NiM laser beam, TfB NiM Force Scream.
  

 

My opening rotation:

1. Enrage
   
2. Force Leap
   
3. Smash
   
4. Crushing Blow
   
5. Retaliation
   
6. Backhand
   
7. Ravage
   
8. (Retaliation if procced)
   
9. Taunt (AOE-taunt for Sonic Barrier if you have mDPS in the group)
   
10. Sundering Assualt
    
11. Force Scream
    

 

The idea is to use all your high-aggro abilities as soon as possible. Saber Throw and Force Scream doesn't provide much aggro - that is why you don't use Saber Throw at the start and delay using Force Scream.

 

If you have a count down AND the DPS delays their attacks, you can start off with Saber Throw. I.E. a count down from 3:

3 - Enrage

2 - Saber Throw

1 - Force Leap

0 - DPS attacks / you Smash

 

This will depend on the fight. NiM withering Horror my rotation posted holds aggro. For Gate Commander HM I use no taunts or just the aoe taunt when he first comes down so I can have my single ready right after he throws that grenade to get him back on me. Reflect once again, can be used for aggro when you anticipate you will not need it for a special boss attack. Each fight does have a different rotation depending on your DPS, and mechanics of each fight. I would love for my DPS to hold off in the beginning, but we run two maras and 2 snipers who are all geared, and do insane dmg. The rotation I posted is for them, even with the gaurds on both maras, I have to really be spot on with threat generators and taunts to keep aggro, because one slip and THEY WILL PULL. Use your taunts when they are on CD unless the mechanics of the fight dictate you will need them before they come off CD. Understand the mechanics of the fight and work within the boundaries of them with your taunts. After awhile, you will know when you can and can't use a taunt so it will be available when you need it. But if you can use it, and it won't jack anything up -use it.

 

Another big thing is knowing your grp and what they tend to do.

[Afieri]

This is all an extremely moot discussion. There is one opening rotation that will provide a higher average TPS over the first 15 seconds of a fight which is the most volatile part of every fight. The threat built by your abilities does not change appreciably without crits and you have no procs that will influence your opener enough to allow any sort of RNG in.

 

The opener the OP posted as his new opener is correct aside from the placement of the first taunt. Delay that first taunt for as long as you can. Preferably so your single taunt includes the entire duration of master strike in it. Because MS is slightly backloaded with its damage, you should be wary about placing it early in your rotation. If you see my post in the link that the OP provided in his first post, I go through the highest threat generation opener for a guardian and that is the one that you should be using for a ST fight.

[Starlite_Chobo]

A belated thank you to all who posted in this thread. I found this very helpful. I found it especially interesting that there was some variation in the responses even among top players, showing that this is a somewhat complex issue to be resolved based on the situation and the dps in one's group. Thanks again.

[Jethsidi]

Came across this post and felt the need to throw 2 cents in, although the current replies may just be out of date.

(I run Juggernaut so you will have to translate to Guardian)

Principle thing in the opener is to clip abilities with Retaliation to get 2 abilities into 1 GCD.

 

Enrage

Jump

Crushing Blow + Retaliation

Smash

Backhand

Scream + Retaliation

Ravage

 

(If you get that tingly feeling that you may lose agro taunt before Ravage, but I have opened with this on every boss with DPS that pull 4k+ on NiM Bestia and 3k+ on NiM Draxus and have almost never had to taunt).