To the combat team and EricMusco

[GregAlia]

I read the change coming to Vengeance and thought to myself, how is this good for us and the game. I'm afraid that this change was ill advised as I feel it was completely unnecessary and will only cause your team further head aches as the wave of complaints come streaming in. The concern from the community collectively concerning vengeance was its PvE performance which this root does nothing to improve. As for PvP, where I and others felt vengeance was pretty strong, you have created a monster. I appreciate the fact that you wish to do something to make vengeance a stronger class but your team should have looked to pooled hatred for a rework that would have benefited both sides of the game and perhaps a 30% Aoe damage reduction. This was a bad choice. Perhaps it was done because it was quick and easy while working out a use for PH was not. Though this change hardly hurts me as a vengeance jugg, I would have liked to see a more inventive change than this which will only make our class hated as opposed to respected. Edited October 19, 2013 by GregAlia

[Alec_Fortescue]

Vengeance strong in PvP? Pls. Those guys are getting facerolled in arenas. Root might slightly help but it's more like an annoyance to the enemy, rather than something to even the odds -_- They surely didn't create a monster. More like a freak that's of no good to anyone.

 

I agree that some talents should be removed or replaced. Pooled hatred is a very random thing, pretty much not worth taking despite nice damage boost. I don't understand why it was nerfed in the first place, it wasn't even that much popular.

 

And Seething Hatred. Wth is this. Being high in our skill tree would indicate somewhat powerful and useful talent. But it's not. No one has need for it.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[GregAlia]

I'm not going to argue with you over the strength of vengeance. It's not getting stomped in team rated it gets stomped in solo suing because of poor team making. But beyond that you must agree this root is a big nothing for pve, and for some of us unnecessary in PvP where other skills would be much more useful. Also compared to more than half the other classes they have crafted in this game, vengeance is like a corvette compared to a pinto. Yes Mara's and sents are Lamborghini's but that is also a function of their group size choice and the fact that they created rage which continues to hurt all competitiveness in this game

[Aelaias]

Veng is marginally more durable than focus with tradeoff being crap burst and aoe dps loss. The only saving grace is ghetto tanking leading to rage issues, loss of unstoppable and even less dps. A monster it is not, carnage is more effective at the spec's primary purpose, single target dps. The only worthwhile thing about it is the ability to lead in and eat the cc others wouldn't have to deal with. How long do you think that would last before people caught on? In pvp this continues to be a boutique spec for people who appreciate the style and don't care too much about the substance. Edited October 21, 2013 by Aelaias

[GregAlia]

My choice of the word monster had less to do with it being a complete face roll and more to the whining that will begin. Go look at the PvP forums. Endless posts about it have already started and we haven't seen it in action yet. We don't need the root we need other things. For PvE it is worthless. In PvP it will be very strong and I don't agree with either of you about this specs short comings which are less the smaller the group size becomes. If you couldn't hit people with ravage in PvP that's your problem. Edited October 20, 2013 by GregAlia

[Aelaias]

I don't actually disagree with you on root being a solution is search of a problem when real problems are getting ignored. I just think the spec has very serious issues which make it relatively ineffective in pvp.

[Helig]

Vengeance is a good spec to faceroll noob Sorcerers who Overload or stun Unstoppable, and Mercs who face tank melee because they have heavy armour. That's about it. It's the easiest melee spec to kite for me to date. I can kite it on a farking *AP Tech*.

 

It's durable, but it's damage is unreliable, and it has high contact time requirement in conjunction with limited tools to stay in range. Good for unorganized PvP against bads. On more competitive levels, it's quite mediocre. Smash is better in every meaningful way, even if Juggernaut Smash is subpar to Marauder Smash.

 

But I do agree that root on Ravage isn't the change that the class needs the most.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Helig

[GregAlia]

^ Ya AP's and hydraulic over ride in general is a complete nightmare for mele classes. Especially since it is all instant no cast time run just out of range. AP's are really strong ATM. But Vengeance is better than Ops dps, Sin dps, sorc, mercs. So there is a lot more below us than above. We certainly could us some help but its hard to complain when so many other classes stink below us.

[Helig]

^ Ya AP's and hydraulic over ride in general is a complete nightmare for mele classes. Especially since it is all instant no cast time run just out of range. AP's are really strong ATM. But Vengeance is better than Ops dps, Sin dps, sorc, mercs. So there is a lot more below us than above. We certainly could us some help but its hard to complain when so many other classes stink below us.

No, it's not. Not in Arena, not. Sin DPS and Ops DPS are strongest 1v1 classes atm (server tournaments demonstrate that over and over), and I'll take a DPS Sin over Vengeance Jugg in my Arena team any day. Vengeance damage is just too random, and DoTs tend to screw CC sometimes. Ops DPS - they do need help in Arenas, granted.

 

I happen to run a Gunnery Commando in our alts Arena team (second DPS is Shadow). I'll take Gunner over Vengeance any day, thank you very much. Unless it's Huttball or something.

 

Sorc cleave works pretty well in Arenas. I don't run it in the Arena, but I fought a couple of good teams that used it. Was very impressed. I do run a hybrid Sorc in regs, though.

 

And before you ask - Vigilance was my original main/preferred spec, but then I drifted away towards PvP tanking - the Guard tank my Arena main at the moment. Vengeance is a decent, well-rounded spec for queueing solo regs. No more, and no less.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Helig

[GregAlia]

That's your team not mine and not the experience I have playing Vengeance. You take whoever you want. I was trying to discuss what we could have used instead of the root and got nothing but the usual a- hole responses from everybody.

[Helig]

That's your team not mine and not the experience I have playing Vengeance. You take whoever you want. I was trying to discuss what we could have used instead of the root and got nothing but the usual a- hole responses from everybody.

Oh, the root on Ravage certainly wouldn't be the change that I'd make to Vigilance/Vengeance. On that, we'd agree, I think.

 

I firmly believe that Warmonger needs to be a Shien talent. Immortal just doesn't need it. It already has amazing PvP utility and very good mobility. I also believe that Ravage procs should be less random, even if it means increasing the ICD somewhat (resulting in net same de-facto cooldown). The spec should either better synergize with DoTs, or lose them altogether. Right now, DoTs other than Plasma Brand/Shatter look like mere meters padding. Those are, arguably, the worst, lowest benefit-per-point talents in the game.

 

I'd also consider for Zen Strike procs to increase the channel speed of MS/Ravage. Those would be the steps in the right direction, resulting in more reliable damage, stronger non-frontloaded damage with less contact time requirement.

[Angellis]

It's funny hearing these two things being said: "people complain/will complain about Ravage root" and "Ravage root is not what we need. We need other more important buffs". It's hard to reconcile these two statements. If Ravage root were really OP which a lot of QQers really think it is, Juggs should be happy about it. If it's as unneeded and mediocre as Juggs claim, why are others QQing about it? Unless BW has once again done the impossible: buff a class and actually displease everyone.

 

IMO any non-Jugg-class player who sees this as a massive buff to complain about, simply does not know what they are talking about. The only really effective difference this will make it to guarantee that we land our last hit of Ravage. (And it's not a guarantee, since we can still be stunned for the last tick.) And the root already exists in the game for the Carnage Mara , which is a far more viable AC than VG anyway. Vengeance has needed love for so long, and *this* is what people are complaining about. Well I'd hate to see the tears if this tree got the actual buff it needs...

 

QQ from other classes just seems like sour grapes to me. Vengeance has been a nothing spec for so long and some don't like the idea that maybe, just maybe, somebody else is getting something...

 

I actually like the Ravage root but it's not how I would have fixed Vengeance. The tree simply has too many junk abilities. When compared against other ACs which are far more useful and deadly (AP, sin, smasher) I think it's laughable than anyone wants to complain about a Ravage root.

[Alec_Fortescue]

+2 mm to e-peen. Your mission here is concluded. You may go now.

 

He still didn't post any proper results apart from a random Alderaan vid.

[Elyx]

We don't need the root we need other things. For PvE it is worthless.

 

I disagree. I find that mob movement is very irritating...can't tell you how many times a tank or other DPS have KB'ed a mob out of my range, or pulled it...and i waste 2/3 of my ravage.

 

However....at BEST it's a QoL change. not a fix like they think it is. Or perhaps its just a small bone...the one that they can give to us at the moment while they fix other things.

 

But I do agree that this isn't the help that ravage needed. in PvP it needs KB immunity in addition to the root (as well as other things), and in PvE we need a higher proc rate (or more abilities that proc it is probably better). but yeah...this and a few other changes to other classes leave me scratching my head. like....what about all the other things that are forefront on our minds? .

[GregAlia]

It's funny hearing these two things being said: "people complain/will complain about Ravage root" and "Ravage root is not what we need. We need other more important buffs". It's hard to reconcile these two statements. If Ravage root were really OP which a lot of QQers really think it is, Juggs should be happy about it. If it's as unneeded and mediocre as Juggs claim, why are others QQing about it? Unless BW has once again done the impossible: buff a class and actually displease everyone.

 

IMO any non-Jugg-class player who sees this as a massive buff to complain about, simply does not know what they are talking about. The only really effective difference this will make it to guarantee that we land our last hit of Ravage. (And it's not a guarantee, since we can still be stunned for the last tick.) And the root already exists in the game for the Carnage Mara , which is a far more viable AC than VG anyway. Vengeance has needed love for so long, and *this* is what people are complaining about. Well I'd hate to see the tears if this tree got the actual buff it needs...

 

QQ from other classes just seems like sour grapes to me. Vengeance has been a nothing spec for so long and some don't like the idea that maybe, just maybe, somebody else is getting something...

 

I actually like the Ravage root but it's not how I would have fixed Vengeance. The tree simply has too many junk abilities. When compared against other ACs which are far more useful and deadly (AP, sin, smasher) I think it's laughable than anyone wants to complain about a Ravage root.

 

You answered your own question. It's nice. It will drive bad players crazy (most of the PvP community) while not fixing the problems with the tree. People will whine and whine and we will look strong on paper. But it won't be an actual fix. Also PvP is not all that matters. This is the Juggernauts main PvE dps tree. This root will not boost our numbers.

Edited October 23, 2013 by GregAlia

[GregAlia]

So many bads.... /facepalm /popcorn /towel

 

Keep going rookies. Love watching this sh*tshow.

 

You sir are the douchiest douche that ever douched. South park made an episode about the biggest douche in the Universe and if they had known who you were they would have made the episode about you. Your videos are compilations of regs where you crush under geared nobodies. You've never posted a ranked WZ where your killing it in Vengeance our an unedited WZ. It's just a highlight reel. No one is interested in your opinion because you never provide one.