Sqaure-Enix did it....

[Andryah]

I am in no way trying to fudge numbers, or biased towards any target. I am citing trusted information. If you have a comparative number review to bare as witness I would be thrilled to see it. I enjoy numbers, and debate. I do not enjoy misinformation, and flawed statistical analysis. If I had a more up to date listing I would gladly provide it. If anyone for that matter does please add it as evidence towards the case.

I do not have personal investment towards either side of the argument here. If the numbers are higher, or lower it makes literal no difference to me besides that we can lay the matter to rest.

 

EmperorLupey, my response was to ImpactHound, NOT you. Please show me where I stated in any way that you were fudging numbers? I supported your contention with follow-up analysis and provided an analogy to ImpactHound as to the rational basis for that follow-up analysis.

 

I stand by my response to him, and I actually answered your demand in the process.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Andryah

[Primarch_PWnD]

Here's the nice thing about objective analysis........ you take a known data point and then you take additional data points available to you.. sometimes from the same source, sometimes from different sources... and you create an assessment of the current.

 

[this is actually what the person at mmodata does. Do you know why he does not report new data on SWTOR? Because his main objective is to report subscriptions in MMOs... and since SWTOR is no longer a pure subscription MMO.. he refuses to report data on it. In other words.. even in his own analytical norm.. he is biased against MMOs that are not subscription MMOs, by refusing to report on them any more.]

 

Now.. on to an objective assessment using multiple sources of credible data (ie: mmodata and EA directly):

 

EA reaffirmed in it's most recent quarterly earnings calls that the game continues to progress upward both in terms of commercial contribution to their bottom line as well as overall state of the game and player base. In other words.. even to the simply layman.... sounds game is stable and growing modestly... as opposed to forum mythology that it is crashing and doomed.

 

Let me give you a grade school analogy to assist you:

 

 

There is a difference between actually wanting to figure out reality VS wanting to spread fear, doom, and uncertainty. Stop trying to spread blight about the game at your every opportunity IMO.

 

There's also such a thing as "wanting to fudge vague statements to fit what you want", such as what you just did there.

 

"progress upward both in terms of commercial contribution to their bottom line as well as overall state of the game and player base" -Andryah

 

You know that statement means absolutely nothing, and can be applied to just about anything when you look at it from certain points of view.

 

You say you're looking at it "objectively", but real objectivity says that statement is bupkiss and meaningless. You are just as guilty of shaping vague statements to fit what you want too, only you use words like "pragmatic" and "objective" without knowing what they actually mean.

 

Edit: You also know that companies can sort-of fudge their own numbers too, in order to make them look different on paper than they do in reality. Why do you think companies have big promotions and sales right before the end of fiscal quarters and years? Why do you think Makeb was released just before the end of EA's fiscal year? It's to get numbers up before they're published so that they look better.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Primarch_PWnD

[ImpactHound]

Here's the nice thing about objective analysis........ you take a known data point and then you take additional data points available to you.. sometimes from the same source, sometimes from different sources... and you create an assessment of the current.

So upward trends will continue upward from year to year no matter what? And Downward trending games will only continue downward? There's a big gap in data in the context that we're only discussing current subscriptions.

 

[this is actually what the person at mmodata does. Do you know why he does not report new data on SWTOR? Because his main objective is to report subscriptions in MMOs... and since SWTOR is no longer a pure subscription MMO.. he refuses to report data on it. In other words.. even in his own analytical norm.. he is biased against MMOs that are not subscription MMOs, by refusing to report on them any more.]

I don't know how you can try and make this scientific and intellectual-sounded when no reliable data is being reported anymore, because normally we just call that GUESSING, ESTIMATING, or GUESSTIMATING.

EA reaffirmed in it's most recent quarterly earnings calls that the game continues to progress upward both in terms of commercial contribution to their bottom line as well as overall state of the game and player base. In other words.. even to the simply layman.... sounds game is stable and growing modestly... as opposed to forum mythology that it is crashing and doomed.

Quarterly earning don't reflect the actual subscriptions with cash shop options. Especially with the guy who just subbed the other day for two weeks and then dropped $80 on cartel coins in a personal thread.

 

 

There is a difference between actually wanting to figure out reality VS wanting to spread fear, doom, and uncertainty. Stop trying to spread blight about the game at your every opportunity IMO.

Again you're leaping to conclusions. I wasn't spreading doom in this thread, I only stated I didn't believe SWTOR was #2 in subs.

 

Again, butting in when you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Andryah]

There's also such a thing as "wanting to fudge vague statements to fit what you want", such as what you just did there.

 

I could care less what the numbers are pal. So you missed completely with that dart.

 

But let's explore your use of the word "fudge".

 

A) mmodata presented data, and mmodata is a generally accepted credible source of data with gamers.

 

B) EA has announced consistent improvements in SWTOR commercial performance in terms of player numbers and revenue. These are published facts on the record.

 

C) The servers are active and busy, even the least populated are running at standard population levels 16+ hours per day.

 

The above are not disputable. And any sensible person can connect the dots and see what they mean.

 

Sticking to eating fudge rather then spewing it as an accusation IMO.

[Andryah]

Again, butting in when you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

I don't need your permission to contribute to a thread discussion. You probably hate that, don't you?

 

But honestly....you, by your own admission, have not logged in to play the game for weeks.. so why do you even care?

 

And.. I stand by my analysis. I am quite happy to let forum members decide for themselves if what I state makes more sense or what you state makes more sense.

[EmperorLupey]

EmperorLupey, my response was to ImpactHound, NOT you. Please show me where I stated in any way that you were fudging numbers? I supported your contention with follow-up analysis and provided an analogy to ImpactHound as to the rational basis for that follow-up analysis.

 

I stand by my response to him, and I actually answered your demand in the process.

 

Argument retracted. I was under the impression you were saying I was supplying bad charts to further a menial goal. Apology extended.

[Andryah]

Argument retracted. I was under the impression you were saying I was supplying bad charts to further a menial goal. Apology extended.

 

No worries.

 

I applaud and support your use of mmodata in discussions.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Andryah

[StarMagus]

Edit: You also know that companies can sort-of fudge their own numbers too, in order to make them look different on paper than they do in reality. Why do you think companies have big promotions and sales right before the end of fiscal quarters and years? Why do you think Makeb was released just before the end of EA's fiscal year? It's to get numbers up before they're published so that they look better.

 

The problem with this is simple...

 

If you claim that Company X is going to do that, then it's logical to assume they did it every year. If they announce Numbers in Year Y-2, those would be pumped up as well.

 

Now if they announce Year Y-1 as being twice what they had in Y-2, even if those numbers are pumped up, they are still double what the Y-2 pumped up numbers are. In other words it the pumping up of numbers only pays off the first time you do it, after that your year to year is stuck in pumped up number comparison.

[ImpactHound]

/Agree.

 

Though nuance is important in these discussion when talking about actual player activity. A large number of EVE players run multiple accounts (which they fund by buying PLEX off the open market in game). There are very sound reasons for doing this in a game like EVE.. and kudos to the devs for that IMO. So.. from a strictly business perspective.. they appear to be number 2... but business is about revenue and I would venture that the success of the CM in SWTOR makes them actually number 2.

 

And while we are at it on nuance..... a lot of SWG players also ran multiple accounts.

 

WHAT REALLY MATTERS for players is not absolute number of paid (or active) accounts. What matters is whether the majority of open servers are active and healthy AND is your server(s) you play on active and healthy population wise? All the rest is just the normal gaming forum epeen festing.

 

except the actual discussion was about subscription numbers and not revenue. You can't steer it towards the stat of your choice to put SWTOR on a pedestal, or if you must, do it in another thread instead of derailing the discussion at hand. GW2 doesn't publicize revenue, but they must be demolishing SWTOR numbers if they hired double the staff while SWTOR cut theirs in the past year. Oh, but let's brag about 2.5 mill box sales! That's relevant!

[Andryah]

except the actual discussion was about subscription numbers and not revenue. You can't steer it towards the stat of your choice to put SWTOR on a pedestal, or if you must, do it in another thread instead of derailing the discussion at hand. GW2 doesn't publicize revenue, but they must be demolishing SWTOR numbers if they hired double the staff while SWTOR cut theirs in the past year. Oh, but let's brag about 2.5 mill box sales! That's relevant!

 

LOL.. the actual discussion topic is:

Square-Enix did it...Why can't Bioware? S.E. completely redid their MMO after a while of it being out. I wonder why can't SWTOR can't have it done too. I mean it's not like they don't have the money....

 

In other words.. nothing about subscription numbers of MMOs at all. The thread has meandered all over the place since it was created. Suck it up.

 

So what we have here is a pointless comment..... to my comment about nuance in subscription numbers. I'm sure other forum members understand what I was contributing to the discussion, and why... and will factor it into their thinking accordingly.

 

And again... you do not get to dictate what threads I comment in, nor what I comment.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Andryah

[Sir-Coffee]

..Why can't Bioware? S.E. completely redid their MMO after a while of it being out. I wonder why can't SWTOR can't have it done too. I mean it's not like they don't have the money....

 

SE cares about their customers.

 

On a side note, people have spent a lot of money on this game and they'd be pissed off if their accounts were shut down. I'd gladly pay more money for a better version of this game but i'm not sure how other people would feel.

[Primarch_PWnD]

Well you talk about using "numbers and facts", and list as one of your reasons:

 

"Servers are busy and alive"

 

give me a break, and at least admit you're framing things to fit your argument.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to speak your mistaken vernacular: I'm being pragmatic and objective.

[ImpactHound]

LOL.. the actual discussion topic is:

 

 

In other words.. nothing about subscription numbers of MMOs at all. The thread has meandered all over the place since it was created. Suck it up.

 

So what we have here is a pointless comment..... to my comment about nuance in subscription numbers. I'm sure other forum members understand what I was contributing to the discussion, and why... and will factor it into their thinking accordingly.

 

And again... you do not get to dictate what threads I comment in, nor what I comment.

 

Page 3, originating from the TheLexinator's post. Several people responded directly to it disagreeing, EmperorLupey tried to support it. I know you're smarter than that.

 

If I wanted to /ignore you, I would. I don't because you occasionally make a meaningful and intelligent post, but they're becoming few and far apart.

[Andryah]

Well you talk about using "numbers and facts", and list as one of your reasons:

 

"Servers are busy and alive"

 

give me a break, and at least admit you're framing things to fit your argument.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to speak your mistaken vernacular: I'm being pragmatic and objective.

 

I'm sorry... but you were not being very clear here.

 

What exactly are you presenting counter-point to?

 

I provided sensible analysis using multiple points of credible information freely available on the internet. I'm sorry if analysis bothers you.. too bad. Fact is.. with very few exceptions... all discussions on subscription numbers is an analysis based discussion because companies simply do not post raw subscription data much anymore.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Andryah

[Vandicus]

Page 3, originating from the TheLexinator's post. Several people responded directly to it disagreeing, EmperorLupey tried to support it. I know you're smarter than that.

 

If I wanted to /ignore you, I would. I don't because you occasionally make a meaningful and intelligent post, but they're becoming few and far apart.

 

If people are trying to use subscription numbers(or lack thereof) to argue that the game is in need of a reboot, it is a perfectly valid point to say that subscriptions are no longer the sole deciding factor in TOR's success or failure, and that a TOR subscriber probably provides more revenue per subscriber than EVE online's subs, by virtue of the Cartel Market.

[Andryah]

Page 3, originating from the TheLexinator's post. Several people responded directly to it disagreeing, EmperorLupey tried to support it. I know you're smarter than that.

 

If I wanted to /ignore you, I would. I don't because you occasionally make a meaningful and intelligent post, but they're becoming few and far apart.

 

I understand. I made clear that the thread was meandering all over the place and off topic.

 

Then again.. I was not the person engaging in accusation of being off topic now was I?

[ImpactHound]

If people are trying to use subscription numbers(or lack thereof) to argue that the game is in need of a reboot, it is a perfectly valid point to say that subscriptions are no longer the sole deciding factor in TOR's success or failure, and that a TOR subscriber probably provides more revenue per subscriber than EVE online's subs, by virtue of the Cartel Market.

 

I wasn't trying to be that broad and personally wasn't invested in proving SWTOR did or didn't need a reboot. I was only interested in discussing the raw sub numbers. I can see your point though, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective of revenue driving a reboot. I don't enough about EVE's cash shop to say whether it's a match for SWTOR, but I would imagine not on IP alone.

Edited October 16, 2013 by ImpactHound

[EmperorLupey]

If we want to keep on topic of the OP.

FF14 was a tremendous flop. It was so bad they bagged the head developer of the game. The game was so bad in fact that Square-Enix was in jeopardy of going bankrupt due to the amount of lawsuits that were threatening to be filed. So Rehired the guy who they fired for going against the head developer, and put him as a project head for the re-adaptation. The also offered major incentives to clients who purchased the bomb of a first game. Over all the FF14 launch and A Realm Reborn Launch are still in the red. But in the red is way better than bankrupt.

 

SWTOR on the other hand got amazing reviews to kick start, but due to bad business method, and failing to meet the standards of all clients (which they tried to do) their ship sunk. Also a major contributing factor to the downfall of the game from release was terrible hardware in the servers (which caused serious lag issues, over 80 frames of "rubber-banding". This made the game unplayable in a lot of circumstances. After the break down of PR by BioWare Austin (due mainly to EA Games) they took their finished product, upgraded the hardware on their servers, and went back into development. They have since moved the platform into a F2P basis with cash shop options which re-invigorated the gaming community to revisit. These are all positive things which do not warrant a rebuild.

[ImpactHound]

If we want to keep on topic of the OP.

FF14 was a tremendous flop. It was so bad they bagged the head developer of the game. The game was so bad in fact that Square-Enix was in jeopardy of going bankrupt due to the amount of lawsuits that were threatening to be filed. So Rehired the guy who they fired for going against the head developer, and put him as a project head for the re-adaptation. The also offered major incentives to clients who purchased the bomb of a first game. Over all the FF14 launch and A Realm Reborn Launch are still in the red. But in the red is way better than bankrupt.

 

SWTOR on the other hand got amazing reviews to kick start, but due to bad business method, and failing to meet the standards of all clients (which they tried to do) their ship sunk. Also a major contributing factor to the downfall of the game from release was terrible hardware in the servers (which caused serious lag issues, over 80 frames of "rubber-banding". This made the game unplayable in a lot of circumstances. After the break down of PR by BioWare Austin (due mainly to EA Games) they took their finished product, upgraded the hardware on their servers, and went back into development. They have since moved the platform into a F2P basis with cash shop options which re-invigorated the gaming community to revisit. These are all positive things which do not warrant a rebuild.

 

Excluding the last sentence, this is something we can all agree with. I don't think SWTOR needs a reboot, but it shouldn't be off the table if there was real progress to be made.

[Andryah]

If we want to keep on topic of the OP.

FF14 was a tremendous flop. It was so bad they bagged the head developer of the game. The game was so bad in fact that Square-Enix was in jeopardy of going bankrupt due to the amount of lawsuits that were threatening to be filed. So Rehired the guy who they fired for going against the head developer, and put him as a project head for the re-adaptation. The also offered major incentives to clients who purchased the bomb of a first game. Over all the FF14 launch and A Realm Reborn Launch are still in the red. But in the red is way better than bankrupt.

 

SWTOR on the other hand got amazing reviews to kick start, but due to bad business method, and failing to meet the standards of all clients (which they tried to do) their ship sunk. Also a major contributing factor to the downfall of the game from release was terrible hardware in the servers (which caused serious lag issues, over 80 frames of "rubber-banding". This made the game unplayable in a lot of circumstances. After the break down of PR by BioWare Austin (due mainly to EA Games) they took their finished product, upgraded the hardware on their servers, and went back into development. They have since moved the platform into a F2P basis with cash shop options which re-invigorated the gaming community to revisit. These are all positive things which do not warrant a rebuild.

 

/Agree with your assessment.

[EmperorLupey]

Excluding the last sentence, this is something we can all agree with. I don't think SWTOR needs a reboot, but it shouldn't be off the table if there was real progress to be made.

 

I am all for improvement. I am stating as an unbiased party that from a businesses analytic stand point there is nothing to warrant a rebuild.

[Sir-Coffee]

I am all for improvement. I am stating as an unbiased party that from a businesses analytic stand point there is nothing to warrant a rebuild.

 

I have to agree with this. As long as people keep throwing money at them, there is no need for a rebuild.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I have to agree with this. As long as people keep throwing money at them, there is no need for a rebuild.

 

Our money has gone towards improvements, maybe not for what matters to you but the game is improving all the time. Take that break for a while and come back in a year or so if it means that much to you cause if you're not enjoying the game today then it's time to move on.

[BJWyler]

That's not true however.

 

Really I'd like to see proof of this whole 500k subs a month thing. I don't see anything that shows it's true, rather I see player after player leaving due to how the gameplay and engine are. And I see more and more people screaming for a return to the sandbox goodness of SWG.

 

I bet if BioWare or Disney came out tomorrow and said TOR is getting shut down and it will relaunch as a Pre-CU game or a SWG 2 with a Pre-CU like system is talked about the MMO Community would lose it. I already know I have 250k friends from SWG who would be all for that.

 

You and your friends should try the EMUs - there is even a pre-CU one. They would increase their playerbase 249k fold if that happened.

[Arkerus]

You and your friends should try the EMUs - there is even a pre-CU one. They would increase their playerbase 249k fold if that happened.

 

I lol'd in real life.