LadyKulvax Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 We really still comparing battles in which the Rebels are so out-gunned and out-numbered it boarders on hilarity. Seriously every one of those Vader brought a force so powerful to bear there was no way the Rebels could ever stand a chance even if they were better tactically. Thrawn was the exact opposite he brought a weaker and outgunned force against the rebels and held the advantage. Are you being serious? this is not even the point here, the point is that Vader dealt with the Rebels and led the Galactic Civil War as Supreme Commander because Thrawn was doing something WAY more important than dealing with some Rebellion, how could he be Supreme Commander when he had already left the Empire, which is why he didn't come back till years and years after the Empire lost at Endor, he didn't even know it had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Are you being serious? this is not even the point here, the point is that Vader dealt with the Rebels and led the Galactic Civil War as Supreme Commander because Thrawn was doing something WAY more important than dealing with some Rebellion, how could he be Supreme Commander when he had already left the Empire, which is why he didn't come back till years and years after the Empire lost at Endor, he didn't even know it had happened. The point was he was a candidate for Supreme commander, he was not chosen for such thus the title is meaningless in this regards and neither Thrawn nor Vader are in this Kaggath so debating them is pointless. All that matters is the history of the characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Except every indication and every time the 2 commanders squared off it was a dead even heat Decided by firepower the ability to repair and the ability to build more ships. So maybe just maybe Wedge was better then Nek as well. Wedge better than Nek? seriously? Thrawn trashed Wedge repeatedly without even trying, Nek defeated the Thrawn simulator over and over without any field knowledge. Pallaeon was stuck on the defensive almost the entire time with far less numbers and every one of his battles could have ended the Imperial Remnant altogether if he hadn't been able to turtle up, so congrats Wedge was barely defeating a vastly out-numbered Pallaeon. I guarantee you it would have been a far different story had Pallaeon had the command of a full fleet, with repair yards, etc.... to fall back on, Wedge had so many advantages in those battles and across the war it was hardly equal terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) The point was he was a candidate for Supreme commander, he was not chosen for such thus the title is meaningless in this regards and neither Thrawn nor Vader are in this Kaggath so debating them is pointless. All that matters is the history of the characters. You completely ignored my point, well done, I'll repeat it again and maybe you'll understand why the point you made in the first place is wrong: Thrawn wasn't even in the Empire when Vader was Supreme Commander, he was in the Unkown Regions and didn't return for nearly ten years, how can you be a Supreme Commander of a faction you don't have connections to anymore? Also the history of the character is clear as I stated in the post above and also by the matter of fact they outright state that he is the best person for the job in the Galactic Alliance. Your argument is really really weak here Tunewalker, you are using engagements between the two and ignoring all the advantages Wedge had in the engagement and the larger war, Pallaeon couldnt afford to pull out or lose a single engagement because the Remnant would lose the whole thing, yet the entire Imperial Remnant was constantly outnumbered against the New Republic, that is a massive advantage for Wedge and you cannot ignore it. Edited October 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) Wedge better than Nek? seriously? Thrawn trashed Wedge repeatedly without even trying, Nek defeated the Thrawn simulator over and over without any field knowledge. Pallaeon was stuck on the defensive almost the entire time with far less numbers and every one of his battles could have ended the Imperial Remnant altogether if he hadn't been able to turtle up, so congrats Wedge was barely defeating a vastly out-numbered Pallaeon. I guarantee you it would have been a far different story had Pallaeon had the command of a full fleet, with repair yards, etc.... to fall back on, Wedge had so many advantages in those battles and across the war it was hardly equal terms. Wedge was not in command Ackbar was.... Wedge thought going to bilbirgini might just be what thrawn suspects and Wedge was right..... also a simulator does not equal the real thing. Last I checked Wedge was only given equal forces to deal with Pallaeon so Pallaeon was stuck on the defensive against equal numbers of Wedge not vastly outnumbered. It was 1 dreadnaught vs 1 dreadnaught only when Palleon got a second dreadnaught was he able to turn Wedge away. The same thing about the turtling up is what Wedge multiple times during the YV war. Edit: who was the commander of the Gallactic alliance fleet during the War between Corellia and the Galactic Alliance wasn't it Pellaeon at the start. So that was another example of Pellaeon vs Wedge and this time it was the exact turn around of what you are talking about. Wedge on the defensive still stalemating an numerically greater foe. Then both left their faction and Wedge ended the war by ending the plans of both factions. Edited October 14, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Wedge was not in command Ackbar was.... Wedge thought going to bilbirgini might just be what thrawn suspects and Wedge was right..... also a simulator does not equal the real thing. Last I checked Wedge was only given equal forces to deal with Pallaeon so Pallaeon was stuck on the defensive against equal numbers of Wedge not vastly outnumbered. It was 1 dreadnaught vs 1 dreadnaught only when Palleon got a second dreadnaught was he able to turn Wedge away. The same thing about the turtling up is what Wedge multiple times during the YV war. Except there were numerous occasions and Thrawn beat all of them also the simulator was nearly perfect and that is why they made such a big deal out of him, Nek was not inferior to Wedge in any way, shape or form. You're ignoring the point there, these battles, basically every battle the Imperial Remnant fought could have lost them their war entirely, also Pallaeon had no way to repair his ships and the point about being out-numbered was that even if he'd beaten Wedge in the engagement, he still would have more to face coming, that is my point, there are many larger advantages the New Republic had throughout the whole war, not just in single engagements. The facts are obvious, when Pallaeon did have a large fleet and was going after the New Republic Han Solo did not believe they could defeat him at all, simple as that, give Pallaeon a proper fleet to command and give him the offensive and he is clearly excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Edit: who was the commander of the Gallactic alliance fleet during the War between Corellia and the Galactic Alliance wasn't it Pellaeon at the start. So that was another example of Pellaeon vs Wedge and this time it was the exact turn around of what you are talking about. Wedge on the defensive still stalemating an numerically greater foe. Then both left their faction and Wedge ended the war by ending the plans of both factions. No Pallaeon wasn't in command, he was busy watching Darth Caedus go awol on the Galactic Alliance and he quit when Caedus took the role of leader of GAG, Admiral Tarla Limpan was in command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Except there were numerous occasions and Thrawn beat all of them also the simulator was nearly perfect and that is why they made such a big deal out of him, Nek was not inferior to Wedge in any way, shape or form. You're ignoring the point there, these battles, basically every battle the Imperial Remnant fought could have lost them their war entirely, also Pallaeon had no way to repair his ships and the point about being out-numbered was that even if he'd beaten Wedge in the engagement, he still would have more to face coming, that is my point, there are many larger advantages the New Republic had throughout the whole war, not just in single engagements. The facts are obvious, when Pallaeon did have a large fleet and was going after the New Republic Han Solo did not believe they could defeat him at all, simple as that, give Pallaeon a proper fleet to command and give him the offensive and he is clearly excellent. The battles are all that really matters isn't it? Neither one was at full strength and Pallaeon had recently built more ships hadn't he that's what the Wookie indicates. The fleets were evenly matched and yet Wedge pushed Pellaeon back for months until Pellaeon took the firepower advantage thanks to another SSD and several Intradictor's coming in to help out while the endurance withheld its fighters (against wedges orders) causing the loss of all those fighters. "Six months after Daala's defeat, Pellaeon made his first major attack, capturing the planet Orinda from the New Republic.[121] Together with Turr Phennir and the 181st, Pellaeon and his Super Star Destroyer Reaper seized six coreward systems from Orinda and dispatched emissaries to the New Republic—if the Remnant's new borders were respected, no further Imperial offensives would be launched. Doubting Pellaeon's sincerity, the New Republic sent Antilles, with the Lusankya under his command, to the front lines. Launching from Bilbringi, the Lusankya and Rogue Squadron passed through the Dorin, Nentan, and Bright Jewel systems before engaging the Reaper and the 181st in the Darkon and Traval-Pacor systems. The New Republic forces won both battles and re-captured the systems.[26] As the Lusankya and the Reaper stalked each other through the Mid Rim, reports of their duels captivated New Republic and Imperial citizens alike. Military strategists on Coruscant were meanwhile challenging the tactical soundness of dreadnaught warfare, instead advocating the use of starfighters and small-platform capital ships. Antilles cared little for the debate and merely hoped for a decisive victory that would destroy what he believed to be the Empire's last Super Star Destroyer. After the Rogues fought the 181st to a stalemate in the Orocco system, the Imperial fighter group challenged the Lusankya for control of the Tyan system and won the battle. At that point, Admiral Areta Bell and the fleet carrier Endurance arrived at the theater, having been dispatched by the New Republic military as backup. The carrier and its E-wing complement joined the Lusankya and Rogue Squadron in defeating the 181st and the Reaper in the Obredaan system, and the Imperials fell back to Orinda. The New Republic forces attacked, and the two Star Destroyers traded broadsides while Antilles called on Bell to launch her fighters. She waited, however, adamant that the E-wings would be more effective launching pinpoint attacks against a weakened Reaper.[26] Before Bell had the chance to launch, Pellaeon sprang a trap: the Super Star Destroyer Dominion and six interdictor cruisers emerged from hyperspace. The Endurance was swiftly destroyed by two flanking capital ships, along with her entire E-wing complement. The heavily-damaged Lusankya fell back, and as Antilles prepared to abandon ship, Rogue Squadron punched a hole in the interdictor screen. Antilles's forces fled,[26] and the New Republic allowed Pellaeon to keep Orinda, although defenses were fortified in the surrounding systems.[121] The New Republic military learned through bloodshed that the age of the Dreadnaught was far from over.[26] " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but those quotes seem to benefit Pellaeon mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 OK, are we just trolling or this there actually an issue here I need to address concerning reductions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but those quotes seem to benefit Pellaeon mostly. You likely are I am reading 2 losses and 1 win when the battles were even and then of course another Loss when Wedge got reinforcements and then a Loss by wedge when he was vastly outnumbered and outgunned but still managed to escape a fight he shouldn't have. So overall in even battles the numbers is 2 Wedge, 1 Pellaeon. When wedge gains a small advantage by means of a fighter carrier arrives the battle becomes lopsided in Wedges favor. When another SSD and 6 intradictors come in to help Pallaeon (thus vastly outgunning Wedge) and Wedge's captain refused to follow his orders it swings heavily in Pallaeon's favor. Edited October 14, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 OK, are we just trolling or this there actually an issue here I need to address concerning reductions? No issue really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 You likely are I am reading 2 losses and 1 win when the battles were even and then of course another Loss when Wedge got reinforcements and then a Loss by wedge when he was vastly outnumbered and outgunned but still managed to escape a fight he shouldn't have. So overall in even battles the numbers is 2 Wedge, 1 Pellaeon. When wedge gains a small advantage by means of a fighter carrier arrives the battle becomes lopsided in Wedges favor. When another SSD and 6 intradictors come in to help Pallaeon (thus vastly outgunning Wedge) and Wedge's captain refused to follow his orders it swings heavily in Pallaeon's favor. I read Pellaeon outmaneuvering Wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 OK, are we just trolling or this there actually an issue here I need to address concerning reductions? It couldn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 It couldn't hurt.That was a question, I am currently at loss as to what the issue is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I read Pellaeon outmaneuvering Wedge. Where prey tell did you read that... the spring a trap part by having a bunch of forces come in that they didn't know about thus allowing him to vastly outgun Wedge. That has nothing to do with how they preform when they are evenly matched and evenly gunned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 That was a question, I am currently at loss as to what the issue is here. No issue that I can see right now they were just confused how .3 of a ship became 1 ship lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Where prey tell did you read that... the spring a trap part by having a bunch of forces come in that they didn't know about thus allowing him to vastly outgun Wedge. That has nothing to do with how they preform when they are evenly matched and evenly gunned. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) Exactly. that has nothing to do with how they preform when they are evenly matched as they are here. Pellaeon has had traps sprung on him before like in the Thrawn Trilogy since he greatly trusts Imperial intelligence and Isard has been tricked before. post #415 if you will lol. But it has nothing what so ever to do with how they preform against each other when evenly matched. When evenly matched they are just that evenly matched so if you have a way that Pellaeon is going to make that not an even match through some trick or outmaneuver forcing some of Wedge's ships not to be there something like I did at post #415 then that's the kind of thing we need to be debating. Edited October 14, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 that has nothing to do with how they preform when they are evenly matched as they are here. Pellaeon has had traps sprung on him before like in the Thrawn Trilogy since he greatly trusts Imperial intelligence and Isard has been tricked before. post #415 if you will lol. But it has nothing what so ever to do with how they preform against each other when evenly matched. You don't seem to understand, and I don't have the right words to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 You don't seem to understand, and I don't have the right words to explain it. I couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm fairly certain you are misinterpreting my meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I'm fairly certain you are misinterpreting my meaning. I believe you are saying that I do not understand and that you do not have the right words to explain to me how I do not understand..... which is exactly what I am saying to you as well we are both at a loss of how to explain our position to the other in a means where it convinces the other that their view point is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I believe you are saying that I do not understand and that you do not have the right words to explain to me how I do not understand..... which is exactly what I am saying to you as well we are both at a loss of how to explain our position to the other in a means where it convinces the other that their view point is correct Sure okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) Oh beni there was one object of debate that needed your attention..... how long would it take a couple ships traveling through hyperspace down one of the secret lanes (no stop just go) for them to reach Byss. I was thinking it would be a matter of hours others have said it will be days. We don't have the hyperspace chart for time wise. oh found it http://www.starwars-chronicles.com/Hyperspace_Travel_Time.htm 24 hours so a day likely less because of how close rendili is. Edited October 14, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts