Fleet Battles Round 1 Battle 2 Silenceo vs Beniboybling

[Selenial]

which the Empire regarded as peripheral.

 

You brought this up in the Kaggath, and I let it slide... But in a thread about fleets, I sort of feel I have to say...

 

TARKIN viewed them as Peripheral, not the Empire. It was the Tarkin Doctrine, if I'm not mistaken, that decided to use Fighters in droves, quantity not Quality.... The Empire, after his death, started developing fabulously advanced fighters, realizing their Importance.... Like the Defender, Agressor etc.

[Silenceo]

I am well aware of the point defense system. However, i am also aware they CAN NOT stop EVERY one of AT LEAST 60 missiles with only 2 corvettes.

 

The concussion missiles, while I estimate around 10-20 will be stopped, with essentially cause the corvettes to explode in a ball of fire.

 

Did you not read any of the strategies i proposed? I explicitly stated that if any ships made a move to follow my bomber convoy, i would send ALL THE FLEET THERE TO TEAR CRAP UP. You would also be surprised by the speed of the Lusankya. 40 MGLT, less than 1/3 the speed of the fighters. MKII's have a speed of 60 MGLT

 

You have already said, it would take a LONG time to disarm parts of the Lusankya, if it came charging forward with the rest of the fleet, it is impossible for you to disable enough of its guns without neglecting everything else.

 

And taking out my fleets weapons as it approaches? how slow/long range do you think your weapons are? Stop over estimating your mass drivers, they are not rapid fire bazookas vs tanks, they are armor piercing rounds from a sniper slowly weakening a AT AT. They do dmg through the shields, but it is not awe inspiring like you make it out to be.

 

Do not discard fighters so readily, it is actually often whoever wins the fighter battle that wins the entire battle, due to having clear space for strafing runs to bring shields or weapons down faster. Each tie fighter carries 2 laser cannons, interceptors 4. the entire Lusankya has 500 of these. my fighter swarm has 528 *from interceptors* + tie fighters 720. that is more than twice of the entire SSD's anti fighter cannons, all in one mad, angry swarm that is ready to tear things apart. Strong shields or not, you will lose shields, and heavy armor is easy to deal with since i have so many missiles i can use, those corvettes can not stop them all.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Let me explain to you why, without mass drivers, and even with leaching, Keldabes are fighting a losing battle 1 vs 1 with a a Imperial MK II star destroyer... Keldabes have a circular placement of weapons, where as Imperial MK II's have a pointed weapons placement with raised gun batters.

 

Circular: Gun batteries are placed all around the ship to eliminate blind spots and allow continuous firing of batteries against enemies on all sides. No strength in any single direction, give or take one or two more batteries. A good example of this is Mon Calimari that have impressive shields and focus on defense rather than defense, great if surrounded with reinforcements allowing them to fire all batteries at once.

 

Point: The most common of this design is the Imperial Star destroyer, they focus their firepower in the 180 degrees in front of them, NONE in the back. Making use of elevation allows the rear guns to fire as the forward guns fire as well, allowing severely increased firepower in front of them. They are able to bring all of their weapons to bear at once, however their engines are a huge blind spot that can be exploited.

 

Conclusion: In a head to head fight *like most space battles are* the point ships will win out due to increased firepower, where as in LARGE engagements *such as armadas that have 30+ ships engaged at once* circular would win out due to them being able to utilize all of their guns at the same time. It is all about firing arcs, and what can be used at the same time as the other guns, not just total guns.

 

Only reason Keldabes were able to stand any chance in game was due to their turbo lasers firing through their hull, to equal fire power, in this type of scenario, there would be no such thing.

 

The Keldabe only is able to use roughly 1/3 of its guns in forward attacks due to its design, where has a MK II may use 3/3 in the same circumstance. Even if the shield leach gives your 1/3 twice the fire power, it is still 2/3 vs 3/3. Take into account the shield leaching, and it will likely equal roughly 3/3 vs 3/3. HOWEVER, the shield leaching only takes effect as long as the shields are active. Once the shields are down, it is back to 1/3 vs 3/3. Both ships are heavily armored, however the MK II can destroy the Keldabe much quicker than it can be disabled.

 

Mass drivers do less damage than a turbolaser, and are slightly slower, and less accurate. Their only saving grace is being able to shoot through shields, but they do not give enough firepower to overcome a MK II in an engagement.

 

All the star destroyers you fight in EaW, are MK I's and the MK II is extensively superior to its predicessor.

 

Also, if you were to do as you say and only send your corvettes forward before your fighters, yes they are meant to counter fighters, but there is not enough of them to win. If you are going to use examples from the game about your ships, so shall I.

 

If i was to use this many squadrons and focus 6 or so squadrons per corvette, give or take a few, you would lose all those corvettes before i lost much of anything. This is called diminishing returns. Though you may have great effect on star fighters, star fighters can focus their firepower on single ships such as your corvettes easily, and due to how many fighters there are, there wouldnt be too many losses due to single, maybe enve a second, strafe to destroy the corvettes. Please, leave game mechanics out of this, otherwise fighters will dominate.

 

The difference between your ships anti fighters and my anti fighters, is that my ships actually have some anti fighter laser cannons, where as yours do not. Mine CAN defend, even if it is little, against fighters. Your own are stuck with their clunky slow guns to target fast moving lethal fighters.

 

Even if i was not to destroy your corvettes as they came forward, what makes you think i would have them just hovering there while you tore them apart with corvettes? In short, you would be at severe disadvantage due to being open for counter attack. Like i said, Crusader's real defense is its mobility and laser point defense against missiles. However, the fighters it is built to defend against are much faster, and can tear it apart with concentrated fire in short order.

 

I warn you, bring game mechanics up again in an effort to futilely prove something against my fleet, and i will bring that game mechanics argument down around our ears.

Did you read my post? I just played the game and the Keldabe can bring all its guns to bear, the body of the vessel juts out at either side to allow for this. Only the very rear turbolasers which do not jut out fire through the hull.

 

And why do you keep saying "without mass drivers" - it has mass drivers.

 

And since when do mass drivers do less damage than a turbolaser? As I'm already stated they do more. They also fire much much faster and with far greater accuracy and given that can be used to target fighters. We can't just assume that because its portrayed as such in game that it is therefore inaccurate. That's just baseless.

 

How exactly am I supposed to leave game mechanics out of this is that is all the information at hand? I'm don't care for idle threats, and plan on bringing up game mechanics whether you like it or not. Its up to Rayla to decide.

 

Now concerning your argument about fighters, I consider it partly invalid as the game diminishes the number of fighters generally seen in battle. This is where we apply logic to game mechanics. We don't just dismiss them altogether because there are flaws here are there, come up with some valid reasons before making these assertions. Regardless a single corvette is perfectly capable of taking down a squadron of six fighters. One flurry is enough to take down half a squadron. You are grossly exaggerating here.

 

And regardless of whether you moved them or not, the Crusaders' being designed to take down fighters are perfectly capable of firing on fast moving objects. And if you move out of range then the Crusader's have performed the task of repelling the enemy. Your vessels cannot repair so its irrelevant whether they are destroyed.

 

I am sure we are all capable of having a civilized discussion without this turning into a flame war, so I'd ask you to respect and consider the arguments I'm bringing to the table rather than responding with dismissal and threats. Because that's only going to make this situation worse, and I can assure you nobody will come out of it happy.

[karadron]

And they don't need to. You are placing too much emphasis on the importance of fighters which the Empire regarded as peripheral, they are not a major threat and don't need to be eliminated only repelled. So my corvettes can just let them come. Now if you do have bombers which have to be intercepted before they get within range I'd point to the corvettes incredible speed, they are more than capable of keeping up with small craft and can easily dip in and out of range, effectively swooping in to destroy your bombers and then swooping back out before they can suffer any significant damage.

 

The Empire spent a lot of time developing its fighter program, which was filled with variations. Also they only accepted the best pilots to pilot them, most mercenary pilots would not stand a chance against TIE pilot.

[Beniboybling]

You brought this up in the Kaggath, and I let it slide... But in a thread about fleets, I sort of feel I have to say...

 

TARKIN viewed them as Peripheral, not the Empire. It was the Tarkin Doctrine, if I'm not mistaken, that decided to use Fighters in droves, quantity not Quality.... The Empire, after his death, started developing fabulously advanced fighters, realizing their Importance.... Like the Defender, Agressor etc.

Well, that is a point but as far as I'm aware Silenceo only has standard TIEs at her disposal. Which aren't designed to win space battles. Even TIE-interceptors don't pack that considerable a punch and simply weren't used in that way.

 

I mean, starfighters never seem of much importance in Imperial space battles. Its always the plucky rebels running rings around the big scary ships, or else being blasted apart. Fighters only come into it when the Rebels are say attempting to take down a Star Destroyer.

 

And in reality, with the firepower at their disposal, can TIEs really do that much damage?

[Beniboybling]

The Empire spent a lot of time developing its fighter program, which was filled with variations. Also they only accepted the best pilots to pilot them, most mercenary pilots would not stand a chance against TIE pilot.

Again Silenceo doesn't have these at her disposal. Unless that's not the case?

 

And yeah I accept that they are good, but that doesn't make their cannons any more powerful.

 

EDIT: Are we taking into account the skills of pilots and naval commanders here? Or just pilots? Or just none?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

I want to take you seriously, i really do. but did you just say you could easily take out a squad of 6...

 

i said SIX SQUADRONS PER. each squadron has 12. that is 72 PER CORVETTE AT LEAST>

 

Yes, i get lots of your stuff is from game mechanics, but do remember that lots of the special things about your ships were needed to make them not inferior to other factions. TIE fighters carried some of the deadliest laser cannons in the entire galaxy, and their pilots were no novices.

 

Brief description of Tie Fighters: Fast, agile, HEAVY FIRE POWER, no shields. idc how you phrase it, but you keep over estimating your own firepower, and underestimating my own, the Empire went for full offensive, with only enough defense to survive. Where does that leave us? WITH THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE SHIPS IN THE GALAXY. Yes, they have gaping weaknesses, yes they have been defeated plenty of times, but you seem to be forgetting that none of these are isolated fights of fighters vs corvettes, or ship vs ship. this is all at once, with each supporting the other.

 

1. I am a HE

 

2. The STANDARD tie pilot had to be dang good due to no shields, it is a given.

 

3. Stop forgetting the size of each and every ship, TIE's of any type are TINY compared to your own fighters/bombers. 6.4 and 6.8 vs 21 and 25...

 

Getting really tired of stating the same points over and over again...

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[karadron]

From previous comments made it sounds like Silenceo does have Interceptors. And yes I'm taking into account the basic TIE pilot.

[Silenceo]

For those who have forgotten:

 

Silenceo:

Flagship: Lusankya Executor-class Star Destroyer.

144 compliment

Capital Ships: Imperial Mk II Class Star Destroyers(3)

72 per *216 total*

Frigates: Strike Class Frigates(6)

192 total

Corvettes: Vigil Class Corvettes(8)

Freighter: Punishing One

Fighter Wing: Black Squadron(No Vader) This is the only tie squadron deployed against the rebels attacking the first death star, it DECIMATED the attacking force despite the fact they were severely out numbered and had no shields, where as their enemy had shields and much better armor.

 

Total star fighters without Black Squadron: 552

 

Squadrons according to Imperial Navy Doctrine:

 

30 TIE Fighters, 360 total fighters each is 6.4 meters in length, 2 laser cannons per

 

5 TIE Bombers, 60 total bombers

 

11 TIE Interceptors, 132 total Interceptors each is 6.8 meters in length, 4 laser cannons per

 

I could have THOUSANDS of fighters from the Lusankya alone, yet we are playing a fair, and balanced game, there for i agreed to cut it down to a mere 552.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

I am well aware of the point defense system. However, i am also aware they CAN NOT stop EVERY one of AT LEAST 60 missiles with only 2 corvettes.

 

The concussion missiles, while I estimate around 10-20 will be stopped, with essentially cause the corvettes to explode in a ball of fire.

 

Did you not read any of the strategies i proposed? I explicitly stated that if any ships made a move to follow my bomber convoy, i would send ALL THE FLEET THERE TO TEAR CRAP UP. You would also be surprised by the speed of the Lusankya. 40 MGLT, less than 1/3 the speed of the fighters. MKII's have a speed of 60 MGLT

 

You have already said, it would take a LONG time to disarm parts of the Lusankya, if it came charging forward with the rest of the fleet, it is impossible for you to disable enough of its guns without neglecting everything else.

 

And taking out my fleets weapons as it approaches? how slow/long range do you think your weapons are? Stop over estimating your mass drivers, they are not rapid fire bazookas vs tanks, they are armor piercing rounds from a sniper slowly weakening a AT AT. They do dmg through the shields, but it is not awe inspiring like you make it out to be.

 

Do not discard fighters so readily, it is actually often whoever wins the fighter battle that wins the entire battle, due to having clear space for strafing runs to bring shields or weapons down faster. Each tie fighter carries 2 laser cannons, interceptors 4. the entire Lusankya has 500 of these. my fighter swarm has 528 *from interceptors* + tie fighters 720. that is more than twice of the entire SSD's anti fighter cannons, all in one mad, angry swarm that is ready to tear things apart. Strong shields or not, you will lose shields, and heavy armor is easy to deal with since i have so many missiles i can use, those corvettes can not stop them all.

Erm, I thought these missles were coming from your bombers (which are for the record) not the SSD... Unless we are dealing with tons of bombers here - remembering they have to get past all the corvettes and other ships to make it.

 

Also concerning tearing ma ships all up, I pointed out the considerable speed that the corvettes can move at, and feasibly take them out before they can suffer much damage. And surely your ships will be too occupied in ship-to-ship combat to focus all firepower on the corvettes? Which for the record aren't immune to being blown to pieces. I suppose the effectiveness of things like this depends on how well the naval battle is going.

 

And I'm not saying your SD will be wiped out before it gets close, but the fact is its going to come into range before the others. Which means by vessels can focus all firepower on that one ship. And really how long can as SD last (with no shields) against the near full might of my fleet. I assure you that the Vengeance class frigates are like rapid fire bazookas at close range. Four of those would be enough to take down an SD fairly quickly, or at least cripple it.

 

And as I already pointed out, the mass drivers have an excellent range. Almost twice that of a turbolaser. Oh and for the record the mass driver cannons of a Canderous-assault tank can take on an AT-AT. So if we want to role with that analogy consider one AT-AT under fire from several Canderous assualt tanks and other units with other AT-ATs coming up the rear. The tanks can take out the AT-AT fairly quickly before the others have time to come into range/deal heavy damage. Admittedly it will grow more difficult as more come into range, but its a point.

 

In the end you need to back up your arguments with evidence, rather than just saying "they ain't that good." Rapid fire, long range, highly accurate mass drivers that go right through shields and do considerably damage are very very deadly indeed and in reality can just focus on the bridge and blow it up with a few rounds, literally.

 

In fact the exposure of the SDs bridges make it quite vulnerable. The mass drivers ignore shields and have good enough range to fire on it without getting to close, a few shots will be enough to rip right into and kill anyone inside. And that's practically that ship crippled, unless they have some kind of backups, but that will have to be looked into.

 

And lets be real here, the TIE fighter likely don't have the same firepower as the cannons on an SSD.

 

P.S. You don't need to go crazy with the capitals, I hear you.

[Silenceo]

Twice the range? Alright, i will play that game, Source please.

 

Very accurate and more damage than turbo lasers? source please

 

Chews through armor easily? source please

 

Speed for corvettes? Source please *none on wiki, i checked*

 

The missiles were from my bombers, check the wiki, they have concussion as well as proton.

 

Shield leach is not instantly no shields, it drains slowly. Again, MK I vs MK II

 

You never answered my question about the mass drivers ammunition.

 

Lusankya not being able to get in range fast enough? If nothing else you would be forced to retreat, minimizing your gun usage, neither is the Lusankya that terribly slow for a ship of its size.

 

There are many reasons that the TIE series was feared, despite its lack of shields. Their firepower, their speed, and their ability to dodge enemy fire so effectively. TIE pilots are trained very, very, well.

 

Corvettes are Anti-fighter, not Anti-Fighter super swarm. Fighters will explode, and i will lose squadrons, however, if even half of your corvettes * i am betting all of those in that area though* fall, i will have already won.

 

Without your ion/plasma cannon, and your corvettes, i am free to simply return to my defensive position and laugh as my fighters/bombers rip your ships apart.

 

Then again, even if it was just the corvettes dead, would be easy then to take out the ion/plasma.

 

The Consortium has tricks, the Empire has Firepower.

 

I also already explained how the fighters would only go forward once the fighter swarm engaged, and would be escorted by both Black Squadron, and the Punishing One, who also has missiles and protons.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

I want to take you seriously, i really do. but did you just say you could easily take out a squad of 6...

 

i said SIX SQUADRONS PER. each squadron has 12. that is 72 PER CORVETTE AT LEAST>

 

Yes, i get lots of your stuff is from game mechanics, but do remember that lots of the special things about your ships were needed to make them not inferior to other factions. TIE fighters carried some of the deadliest laser cannons in the entire galaxy, and their pilots were no novices.

 

Brief description of Tie Fighters: Fast, agile, HEAVY FIRE POWER, no shields. idc how you phrase it, but you keep over estimating your own firepower, and underestimating my own, the Empire went for full offensive, with only enough defense to survive. Where does that leave us? WITH THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE SHIPS IN THE GALAXY. Yes, they have gaping weaknesses, yes they have been defeated plenty of times, but you seem to be forgetting that none of these are isolated fights of fighters vs corvettes, or ship vs ship. this is all at once, with each supporting the other.

 

1. I am a HE

 

2. The STANDARD tie pilot had to be dang good due to no shields, it is a given.

 

3. Stop forgetting the size of each and every ship, TIE's of any type are TINY compared to your own fighters/bombers. 6.4 and 6.8 vs 21 and 25...

 

Getting really tired of stating the same points over and over again...

Please consider than the Zann Consortium was invented for Empire at War. So the argument that they were beefed up is moot as there was nothing to beef them up to. The devs needed vessels that could compete with the other factions, so they created them. Disregard game mechanics and you disregard the entire factions capabilities. Are you really asking me to do that? Then heck I'm picking a new faction thank you very much.

 

Anyway you can berate me all you like but I'm only going to pay attention to arguments. Regardless of the firepower your ships may punch that doesn't make them any more resistant to mass driver cannons.

 

And where is everyone getting this idea that I don't believe fighter pilots to be good?

 

And what's this about size? When did I say "the TIE fighters are really big and therefore big targets".

 

Stop bringing up points that I don't dispute. Heck you didn't even answer my questions. Anyway if we are now on the topic of size (which I'm not sure is that important but what the hell lets go for it) StarVipers have adjustable wings that moved constantly during flight and can be retracted, and given their thiness are not exactly massive targets.

[Silenceo]

Let me explain the size thing real fast... the starvipers are thin from above and to the side, however, from in front of behind, they are like trying to hit the broad side of a barn.

 

My own fighters, though slightly slower in max speed, are more maneuverable as well as much smaller targets.

 

from behind, they are 21 meters....now seeing how they often flow when in combat, that would likely be cut down to about 15 meters, that is still a large target in a dog fight.

 

I have answered the questions you have asked that i have noticed, i however, had yet to get an answer to many questions i have asked myself, i still do not see how you plan to setup your own fleet, how you wish to proceed other than *snipe them* yeah, that will go fast... Whereas i laid it all out for all to see, as we are supoosed to *unless i was mistaken?* Atm, its one planned out fleet with tactics and back up tactics, against what seems to be just a clump of enemy ships lolsniping and focusing fire if i move at all. That is not the case, but you seem to refuse to fill us in as to what you fleet actually looks like either while it is attack, or defending.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Honestly Silenceo, I don't have time for this. I'm not going to waste any more time answering questions I've already answered. Really I think its time to call this. This debate is just getting sour and I don't much care anymore. Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

If it is indeed time to call it, may we please see what the spectators think before the judges step in and end it?

[Beniboybling]

I have answered the questions you have asked that i have noticed, i however, had yet to get an answer to many questions i have asked myself, i still do not see how you plan to setup your own fleet, how you wish to proceed other than *snipe them* yeah, that will go fast... Whereas i laid it all out for all to see, as we are supoosed to *unless i was mistaken?* Atm, its one planned out fleet with tactics and back up tactics, against what seems to be just a clump of enemy ships lolsniping and focusing fire if i move at all. That is not the case, but you seem to refuse to fill us in as to what you fleet actually looks like either while it is attack, or defending.

I wasn't aware that was how we were supposed to be conducting this debate and seems like a bad idea to me. Having too much control over your fleets actions gives you the unfair advantage of being able to switch tactics at will depending on how your opponent will react, an advantage that in reality would not exist.

 

Nor do we have any space-naval experience.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

I wasn't aware that was how we were supposed to be conducting this debate and seems like a bad idea to me. Having too much control over your fleets actions gives you the unfair advantage of being able to switch tactics at will depending on how your opponent will react, an advantage that in reality would not exist.

 

Nor do we have any space-naval experience.

 

Silenceo is correct you guys have direct control of your fleet even if you are not a space-naval officer it is your job to try to reason a strat and why it will work.

[Beniboybling]

Silenceo is correct you guys have direct control of your fleet even if you are not a space-naval officer it is your job to try to reason a strat and why it will work.

OK fine, give me some time to cook something up.

[karadron]

Definition mass driver: a type of projectile cannon.

Therefore it would require reloading, therefore it fires in bursts. Whilst the turbolaser can fire indefinitely. In the end then the turbolaser is the more efficient model, hence why it was more common.

 

The Imperial II was built with a heavily reinforced hull, stronger deflector shields, and greater firepower than the original Imperial I class.

 

Another problem is that the Keldabes were built to counter the Imperial MK-I, not Mk-II, which Silenceo has. Because of the improved design the Keldabes are going to have a lot tough time dealing with them than with the MK-I. Not to mention that the overall firepower of the destroyer is so much more than the Keldabes to begin with.

 

From a frigate perspective the Vengeance is all armor and no shields, also due to this fact its slow, it'll be last to any engagement. The strike-class is almost in the opposite spectrum, although boasting much more firepower. It's fast and heavily shielded, and it also has tractor beams.

 

The Crusaders only have one point defense cannon each, they wont be able to stop every missile, probably just a few at any given time, and with all the firepower in Silenceo's fleet their only real advantage will be their speed, but if they were to get caught in a tractor beam they're pretty much toast.

 

As I've said before, I believe that the TIE fighters will prove superior, because of number, pilot quality (rather than game mechanic), size (they are indeed smaller present less of a target), the speed of the interceptors is superior as is the maneuverability (they were the fastest ship in the galaxy until the A-wing was developed to counter them).

 

As well the Lusankya and the Star Destroyers each have backup bridges in case of an emergency.

 

In the end I just don't think that Beni's fleet has what it takes to win <redacted statement>.

Edited October 5, 2013 by karadron

[Silenceo]

I apologize for using so many caps during the recent pages, I should have controlled my frustration better.

[Beniboybling]

Definition mass driver: a type of projectile cannon.

Therefore it would require reloading, therefore it fires in bursts. Whilst the turbolaser can fire indefinitely. In the end then the turbolaser is the more efficient model, hence why it was more common.

Yet they fire at a far faster rate, I feel this makes up for this.

 

Its also likely a question of expense.

[Beniboybling]

I think Silenceo's arguments have been less biased and have been less inflammatory.

I'd like to think that is not true, I'd also like to think people would no better to say those sorts of things.

[Beniboybling]

I apologize for using so many caps during the recent pages, I should have controlled my frustration better.

Trust me, I've presided over countless debates and seen it all before. It happens.

 

All that matters if that we all walk away as friends.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

I'd like to think that is not true, I'd also like to think people would no better to say those sorts of things.

 

It's an opinion nothing more, honestly this whole thing has gotten really heated as its dragged on with people posting game mechanics instead of hard facts in general-which is understandable since some of these are only in games but it makes things harder. I decided to just forget game mechanics and look at the facts.

Overall that statement wasn't appropriate at all.

[Beniboybling]

As well the Lusankya and the Star Destroyers each have backup bridges in case of an emergency.

Can any source confirm this? The Executor nose-dived when its bridge was destroyed.