Fleet Battles Round 1 Battle 2 Silenceo vs Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

To start off, I would just like to know how long the battle of Endor was, because that will have a deciding factor concerning the shield strength of the Lusankya.

 

Also, the ENTIRE rebel fleet was concentrating on the Executor in that battle, and that fleet dwarfs your own fleet.

 

I am putting my fighters and interceptors out infront of the line for exactly the reason you are trying to exploit with your vipers, so that i can see anything that would be coming through, while not having the dog fight out of range of my ships in case of heavy corvette involvement.

 

I do wonder though, for mass drivers, since they are kinetic, does that mean they have solid rounds? Also note how my corvettes are along the line of the Lasankya.

 

Though the diagram was hard to read, i shall just explain how i meant to have them grouped.

 

Corvettes: 4 grouped loosely around the bridge of the Lusankya. 3 spread just past the bridge towards the left middle of the large ship. Last corvette is right where a trench run would typically start, at the begining of the trench.

 

Frigates: Two by the bridge. two by the left middle. two in the middle.

 

Capital ships.: One by the bridge. two in the middle. Targets enemy vessels in range such as corvettes, if it is a tractor beamed corvette will not fire upon it so it may be used against enemy. Un-tractor beamed corvettes will be shot, survivors will be shot again.

 

Fighters: Decent distance in front of the Lusankya broadside. Should enemy fighters/ corvettes pursue bombers 1/3 of them will give chase. Leaving enough to keep the remaining fighters occupied.

 

Bombers: As soon as the fighters engage heading straight for the Merciless' cannons to take them out.

 

Interceptors: Slightly behind the fighters picking off any that head towards the larger ships. Participates in the dogfight as needed.

 

Black Squadron: Guarding the rear of the bombers

 

Punishing One: Vanguard for the bombers.

 

Lusankya: Using Concussion missiles against any Vengeance frigates that come too close. Tractor beaming all corvettes either for capture or easy destruction. Their strength is in avoidance, not shields.

 

I left the tip undefended mostly because, well, due to the shielding being sectioned and nothing vital down there but more guns, would be a waste of ships.

 

While this only really covers about 7km or so due to how i imagine them positioned and the range of most of the weapons, it is easier to defend and concentrate firepower than the obviously thin 19k

 

For a trench run, don't the shields need to be down?

 

Modified the setup slightly to better deal with fighters/Merciless

 

On another note, what is to be done about the lack of information on the Vigil heavy corvette? Shall we assume? Count guns on random pictures of it? replace it? Give it a average corvette weaponry number? This is the part that now that i think about it is really biting me in the backside, should have chosen a corvette with more details on it.

This doesn't limit the effectiveness of my tactics, you remain vulnerable in your thinly spread state. Even 7km is thin. And breaking formation is the only feasible way in which you can take the Consortium Fleets down if they simply choose to bombard the spear at long range, and slowly cut a path through your formation.

 

They are certainly not going to rush into the various pitfalls you've laid out for them.

 

EDIT: Ion pulses will create "openings" for my fighters to slip through. And in reality your fighters will have to break formation if they want to take down the Merciless. And your frigates and destroyers if they want to destroy the corvettes.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

What i have noticed through this is that all of the ships that Beni has, other than his fighters, his corvettes, and IG-2000, have very little defense against fighters. So, i plan on altering my fighter formation as soon as i have captured/ destroyed at least half of his corvettes or fighters, allowing my own to have a much easier time in exploiting such a weakness.

Which you cannot do without breaking formation, and coming under heavy fire from mass driver cannons and shield leechers - which will make those cannons more powerful.

[karadron]

Stealth, corvettes. I'll extrapolate when I have then time.

 

Except for the fact that stealth is restricted to the freighters.

[Silenceo]

Where are your corvettes located near the fighter swarm?? Trying to picture it in my head, but maybe its just how i worded it. If they are out too far, they will be ineffective at accurately targeting my fighters, correct? but if they are too close they will be in range of my Star destroyers, correct? But how do we determine that? In my mind i imagine the dog fight to be decently close to the Lusankya so that the larger guns could be used against corvettes attempting to get in effective range. Easier for your own fighters to sneak past, yes, but harder for corvettes to aide.

 

On another note, if your ships do as you have indicated, i would indeed be forced to engage. For such a thing, i would likely:

 

Have the Lusankya swing wide so that the broad side stays pointed towards your ships, essential going along the circular edge of the battle.

 

I would have my three star destroyers form a triangle, one in front, two close behind in back. 2 frigates on both sides of the lead star destroyer, 2 in between the back two. Making sure to keep this formation heading forward, but slightly to the side as to stay close enough to the Lusankya to support it if need be. Just close enough to be able to effectively engage corvettes to eliminate them, using tractor beams when possible to eliminate their mobility

 

Corvettes would head for the dog fight to attempt to shoot down more vipers *times like this i again facepalm myself for choosing a ship with little weaponry information*.

 

Once the corvettes arrive, i would then have 1/2 of my fighters target a single Keldabe that would be closest to my larger ships as they move.

 

When my bombers are in firing range of the Merciless, i would have the bombers unload their concussion missiles on the two corvettes standing guard, then unleash their proton torpedo's on those cannons. If/when the Merciless goes into stealth mode, i would have that convoy begin bombing the mass drivers of the Keldabes. Do remember that Punishing One carries proton torpedo's as well.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Silenceo]

I keep wondering what the range on those mass drivers are, and idk if this means anything about it, but i did find this on the wiki.

 

The velocity the projectile could achieve is limited by the method by which it is initially propelled. For a chemical explosion (how a conventional slugthrower works), the peak velocity was ~1.8 km/s. For a plasma driven round from an electrothermal cannon (an electrical arc vaporizes the propellant into a plasma to create the requisite pressure to propel the slug), the peak was ~2.5 km/s. For a gauss/coil gun (where the mass is accelerated by passing through sequenced electromagnetic fields) the limit was ~2 km/s due to the rate at which the fields can be created and collapse. These speeds are extremely small in comparison to light speed.

[karadron]

If the Keldabes have their mass drivers taken out they become almost useless, that mass driver is all their serious firepower.

[Selenial]

If the Keldabes have their mass drivers taken out they become almost useless, that mass driver is all their serious firepower.

 

Same with the Vengeance and it's Plasma-Ion shot.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Selenial

[Silenceo]

Do you mean Merciless? Vengeance does not have plasma-ion shots, they have mass drivers.

[Selenial]

Do you mean Merciless? Vengeance does not have plasma-ion shots, they have mass drivers.

 

Yes, I did mean the Merciless XD

 

It's got very few weapons systems other than the Ion-Plasma shot...

 

And Beni, you're overestimating the Ion part of it. It was designed to disable shields, but not weapons systems or anything else. Even then the shields can be regenerated unless the Plasma was shot at the generator...

[Beniboybling]

Except for the fact that stealth is restricted to the freighters.

...Its restricted to the Merciless.

[Beniboybling]

Yes, I did mean the Merciless XD

 

It's got very few weapons systems other than the Ion-Plasma shot...

 

And Beni, you're overestimating the Ion part of it. It was designed to disable shields, but not weapons systems or anything else. Even then the shields can be regenerated unless the Plasma was shot at the generator...

Its an ion pulse, regardless of how its portrayed via game mechanics the fact remains that is fires ionised particles which have the follow effects on impact:

 

These particles seriously interfered with the operation of electronics and computer systems, shorting circuits and often disabling them outright, in much the same manner as an electromagnetic pulse. The actual physical damage would sometimes result in fused joints on machines, due to the heat produced.

 

And while shields can be regenerated the ship itself remains defenseless against plasma shots and any other kind of fire for that matter, and given that it disrupts electronics I doubt the shields will regenerate any time soon.

[Beniboybling]

If the Keldabes have their mass drivers taken out they become almost useless, that mass driver is all their serious firepower.

Hardly, the Keldabe is a heavy cruiser designed to compete with Imperial Star Destroyers. Even without their mass drivers they still have turbolaser batteries and ion cannons which are more than capable of tearing a Star Destroyer apart, also taking into account the fact that the potency of said cannons will be considerably increased via shield leeching tech. Which gives the vessels a massive advantage.

[Beniboybling]

I keep wondering what the range on those mass drivers are, and idk if this means anything about it, but i did find this on the wiki.

 

The velocity the projectile could achieve is limited by the method by which it is initially propelled. For a chemical explosion (how a conventional slugthrower works), the peak velocity was ~1.8 km/s. For a plasma driven round from an electrothermal cannon (an electrical arc vaporizes the propellant into a plasma to create the requisite pressure to propel the slug), the peak was ~2.5 km/s. For a gauss/coil gun (where the mass is accelerated by passing through sequenced electromagnetic fields) the limit was ~2 km/s due to the rate at which the fields can be created and collapse. These speeds are extremely small in comparison to light speed.

I can't pretend to be sure, I don't recall them having any shorter range than an average cannon and only assumed larger because the speed at which they are propelled (faster than turbolaser fire) would make them more accurate. And given the fact that projectiles don't stop till they hit something, I expect they have a considerable range.

[Silenceo]

Regarding the Keldabe, i would remind you of its weapon placement. Unlike the Imperial star destroyers who have all their weapons on a raised/pointed angle so they can use all their cannons on one target, the Keldabe uses a circular design. Meaning essentially that it does not have the ability to ever focus all of its firepower, it has no blind sides like the star destroyers, but neither does it have a strong side. Without its mass driver, and even counting the shield leach *range?* if they were to go head to head with a Imperial star destroyer, they would LOSE. They simply would be unable to bring enough firepower forward in time, despite the shield leach boosting the dmg.

 

The projectile may continue on for forever, but how far do you beleive it would be lethal? lose accuracy due to distance? Do remember slug throwers *mini mass drivers* are considered primitive and less accurate in the SW universe.

 

Also, food for though, if you choose to have many skip rays, that will essentially hand me the victory. 276 pure star vipers is enough to occupy my 494 or so fighters/interceptors due to quality and quantity. However, if there is much of a dip in your numbers, your own will be sheerly overwhelmed, as well as the skip rays being easy as hell to hit. 25 m longer, only 80 MGLT compared to a TIE fighter 100, and Interceptor 111, as well as 9.2 wide, and 14.3 tall when in flight?! They do not handle well, and with that large of a target, even a novice tie pilot could bulls eye that. If your fighter swarm weakens much, it wont matter how many corvettes you have, as i will simply be able to swarm your larger ships who have NO ANTI-FIGHTER/BOMBER DEFENSES

 

The choice of how you will be defeated is up to you, but choose carefully, for i will strike at the weaknesses you present, and i will break you with them. And when your ion/plasma cannons are silenced, your fleet broken, only then, only then, will i finish off the Merciless, forcing you to watch from your Flagship as your fleet burns around you. /psychopathic rant

 

A lot of your ship abilities are game mechanics, so please do not try and use that point unless you want me to drive a hammer into it.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[karadron]

Hardly, the Keldabe is a heavy cruiser designed to compete with Imperial Star Destroyers. Even without their mass drivers they still have turbolaser batteries and ion cannons which are more than capable of tearing a Star Destroyer apart, also taking into account the fact that the potency of said cannons will be considerably increased via shield leeching tech. Which gives the vessels a massive advantage.

 

Five turbolasers and three ion cannons is going to compete with a star destroyer.

[Silenceo]

That reminds me, does it compete with the MK I or MK II? because if i remember right, the MK II is a drastic improvement in shields, weapons, armor, and essentially everything over the MK I

[karadron]

That reminds me, does it compete with the MK I or MK II? because if i remember right, the MK II is a drastic improvement in shields, weapons, armor, and essentially everything over the MK I

 

Turns out, to my own surprise that its for the MK-I.

[Selenial]

Its an ion pulse, regardless of how its portrayed via game mechanics the fact remains that is fires ionised particles which have the follow effects on impact:

 

These particles seriously interfered with the operation of electronics and computer systems, shorting circuits and often disabling them outright, in much the same manner as an electromagnetic pulse. The actual physical damage would sometimes result in fused joints on machines, due to the heat produced.

 

And while shields can be regenerated the ship itself remains defenseless against plasma shots and any other kind of fire for that matter, and given that it disrupts electronics I doubt the shields will regenerate any time soon.

 

Nope.

 

There were types of Ion Canon (Like the V-200) that could tear through Shields but not any weapons systems, and as Game Mechanics is all we have to go on, we should be comparing the Agressor class Cruisers Ion Canon to the V-200's, not the Malevolence...

[Beniboybling]

Five turbolasers and three ion cannons is going to compete with a star destroyer.

Imperial Star Destroyers in game don't have half the number of batteries they do outside of it, given that we should assume the Kelbade would have more as well. They are certainly capable of competing with them in game. Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Nope.

 

There were types of Ion Canon (Like the V-200) that could tear through Shields but not any weapons systems, and as Game Mechanics is all we have to go on, we should be comparing the Agressor class Cruisers Ion Canon to the V-200's, not the Malevolence...

The V-200 was never said to not be able to take down weapons-systems. Ion particles are after all ion particles, they don't discriminate.

 

And I call game mechanics into question because if I remember correctly if hit by an ion cannon (as in the one with see in Empire) you are still capable of firing at least your ion cannons - which makes no sense.

[Beniboybling]

Regarding the Keldabe, i would remind you of its weapon placement. Unlike the Imperial star destroyers who have all their weapons on a raised/pointed angle so they can use all their cannons on one target, the Keldabe uses a circular design. Meaning essentially that it does not have the ability to ever focus all of its firepower, it has no blind sides like the star destroyers, but neither does it have a strong side. Without its mass driver, and even counting the shield leach *range?* if they were to go head to head with a Imperial star destroyer, they would LOSE. They simply would be unable to bring enough firepower forward in time, despite the shield leach boosting the dmg.

 

Also, food for though, if you choose to have many skip rays, that will essentially hand me the victory. 276 pure star vipers is enough to occupy my 494 or so fighters/interceptors due to quality and quantity. However, if there is much of a dip in your numbers, your own will be sheerly overwhelmed, as well as the skip rays being easy as hell to hit. 25 m longer, only 80 MGLT compared to a TIE fighter 100, and Interceptor 111, as well as 9.2 wide, and 14.3 tall when in flight?! They do not handle well, and with that large of a target, even a novice tie pilot could bulls eye that. If your fighter swarm weakens much, it wont matter how many corvettes you have, as i will simply be able to swarm your larger ships who have NO ANTI-FIGHTER/BOMBER DEFENSES

 

The choice of how you will be defeated is up to you, but choose carefully, for i will strike at the weaknesses you present, and i will break you with them. And when your ion/plasma cannons are silenced, your fleet broken, only then, only then, will i finish off the Merciless, forcing you to watch from your Flagship as your fleet burns around you. /psychopathic rant

 

The projectile may continue on for forever, but how far do you beleive it would be lethal? lose accuracy due to distance? Do remember slug throwers *mini mass drivers* are considered primitive and less accurate in the SW universe.

 

A lot of your ship abilities are game mechanics, so please do not try and use that point unless you want me to drive a hammer into it.

I just did a quick play through of Empire at War and noticed a few things:

 

Mass-drivers have the greatest range out of all the Consortium's vessels. I ran a few "tests" and I'd say its almost double the range of a standard turbolaser battery - they are also very effective against starfighters. Remembering the Consortium used mass driver cannons to as anti-air units. In terms of accuracy, it was never noticeably diminish, nor was damage done. Though in reality I expect both would suffer minor decreases.

 

And these aren't like slug throwers, the rate of fire and speed of fire is intense. I'd say they fire four times as many rounds as a turbolaser battery is capable of and at twice the speed, they are very very accurate.

 

The the design of the Keldabe allows it to fire all batteries at once when positioned head on, however I noticed that for the rear-most batteries this was feasibly impossible as it will involve tearing through the hull. So I'd say only the majority can fire, and on top of that they packed a sizeable punch. Took down a corvette in seconds. In terms of shield leech range, I'd say no greater or lesser than its standard turbolaser batteries - though I didn't test it much.

 

In terms of going head-to-head with a Star Destroyer, I'd say shield leechers and mass drivers would give it an edge. Effectively we are talking about a Star Destroyer with no shield against a Kelbade with shields. That puts the Star Destroyer at a distinct disadvantage, especially given the fact that the mass drivers fire faster, have greater range, are more accurate, and pack a considerably bigger punch than turbolaser batteries. Of course always remembering that the shield leechers bolster the potency of its guns.

 

That said if it was just one-on-one I'd expect it to be in tatters.

 

And all my ships capabilities are game mechanics, they only appear in-game I'm only drawing on what information we have at hand and plan on continuing to do so unless you have a logical reason for dismissing them.

 

EDIT: Just patched your edit in their, not sure what your saying about skiprays I thought I just had Vipers (though if I did the Skipsprays have scramblers which disrupts your ability to lock on to them), anyway your not factoring in corvettes whose primary role is going to be tearing those 494 fighters apart. My Vipers aren't going to rush into battle until your numbers are thinned. And the corvettes will thin them. In reality the only person who lacks dedicated anti-fighter weapons is you, Star Destroyers being notoriously vulnerable to them.

 

And of course my ships aren't at all defenseless, along with standard weapons they have mass drivers which the accuracy and rate of fire makes them considerably effective against fighters. And of course they have shields.

 

And since when do you have bombers anyway?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Five turbolasers and three ion cannons is going to compete with a star destroyer.

Oops, double post. Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[karadron]

Imperial Star Destroyers in game don't have half the number of batteries they do outside of it, given that we should assume the Kelbade would have more as well. They are certainly capable of competing with them in game.

 

Sorry to disappoint you but that's their official number.

[Silenceo]

Let me explain to you why, without mass drivers, and even with leaching, Keldabes are fighting a losing battle 1 vs 1 with a a Imperial MK II star destroyer... Keldabes have a circular placement of weapons, where as Imperial MK II's have a pointed weapons placement with raised gun batters.

 

Circular: Gun batteries are placed all around the ship to eliminate blind spots and allow continuous firing of batteries against enemies on all sides. No strength in any single direction, give or take one or two more batteries. A good example of this is Mon Calimari that have impressive shields and focus on defense rather than offense, great if surrounded with reinforcements allowing them to fire all batteries at once.

 

Point: The most common of this design is the Imperial Star destroyer, they focus their firepower in the 180 degrees in front of them, NONE in the back. Making use of elevation allows the rear guns to fire as the forward guns fire as well, allowing severely increased firepower in front of them. They are able to bring all of their weapons to bear at once, however their engines are a huge blind spot that can be exploited.

 

Conclusion: In a head to head fight *like most space battles are* the point ships will win out due to increased firepower, where as in LARGE engagements *such as armadas that have 30+ ships engaged at once* circular would win out due to them being able to utilize all of their guns at the same time. It is all about firing arcs, and what can be used at the same time as the other guns, not just total guns.

 

Only reason Keldabes were able to stand any chance in game was due to their turbo lasers firing through their hull, to equal fire power, in this type of scenario, there would be no such thing.

 

The Keldabe only is able to use roughly 1/3 of its guns in forward attacks due to its design, where has a MK II may use 3/3 in the same circumstance. Even if the shield leach gives your 1/3 twice the fire power, it is still 2/3 vs 3/3. Take into account the shield leaching, and it will likely equal roughly 3/3 vs 3/3. HOWEVER, the shield leaching only takes effect as long as the shields are active. Once the shields are down, it is back to 1/3 vs 3/3. Both ships are heavily armored, however the MK II can destroy the Keldabe much quicker than it can be disabled.

 

Mass drivers do less damage than a turbolaser, and are slightly slower, and less accurate. Their only saving grace is being able to shoot through shields, but they do not give enough firepower to overcome a MK II in an engagement.

 

All the star destroyers you fight in EaW, are MK I's and the MK II is extensively superior to its predecessor.

 

Also, if you were to do as you say and only send your corvettes forward before your fighters, yes they are meant to counter fighters, but there is not enough of them to win. If you are going to use examples from the game about your ships, so shall I.

 

If i was to use this many squadrons and focus 6 or so squadrons per corvette, give or take a few, you would lose all those corvettes before i lost much of anything. This is called diminishing returns. Though you may have great effect on star fighters, star fighters can focus their firepower on single ships such as your corvettes easily, and due to how many fighters there are, there wouldn't be too many losses due to single, maybe even a second, strafe to destroy the corvettes. Please, leave game mechanics out of this, otherwise fighters will dominate.

 

The difference between your ships anti fighters and my anti fighters, is that my ships actually have some anti fighter laser cannons, where as yours do not. Mine CAN defend, even if it is little, against fighters. Your own are stuck with their clunky slow guns to target fast moving lethal fighters.

 

Even if i was not to destroy your corvettes as they came forward, what makes you think i would have them just hovering there while you tore them apart with corvettes? In short, you would be at severe disadvantage due to being open for counter attack. Like i said, Crusader's real defense is its mobility and laser point defense against missiles. However, the fighters it is built to defend against are much faster, and can tear it apart with concentrated fire in short order.

 

I warn you, bring game mechanics up again in an effort to futilely prove something against my fleet, and i will bring that game mechanics argument down around our ears.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Where are your corvettes located near the fighter swarm?? Trying to picture it in my head, but maybe its just how i worded it. If they are out too far, they will be ineffective at accurately targeting my fighters, correct? but if they are too close they will be in range of my Star destroyers, correct? But how do we determine that? In my mind i imagine the dog fight to be decently close to the Lusankya so that the larger guns could be used against corvettes attempting to get in effective range. Easier for your own fighters to sneak past, yes, but harder for corvettes to aide.

 

On another note, if your ships do as you have indicated, i would indeed be forced to engage. For such a thing, i would likely:

 

Have the Lusankya swing wide so that the broad side stays pointed towards your ships, essential going along the circular edge of the battle.

 

I would have my three star destroyers form a triangle, one in front, two close behind in back. 2 frigates on both sides of the lead star destroyer, 2 in between the back two. Making sure to keep this formation heading forward, but slightly to the side as to stay close enough to the Lusankya to support it if need be. Just close enough to be able to effectively engage corvettes to eliminate them, using tractor beams when possible to eliminate their mobility

 

Corvettes would head for the dog fight to attempt to shoot down more vipers *times like this i again facepalm myself for choosing a ship with little weaponry information*.

 

Once the corvettes arrive, i would then have 1/2 of my fighters target a single Keldabe that would be closest to my larger ships as they move.

 

When my bombers are in firing range of the Merciless, i would have the bombers unload their concussion missiles on the two corvettes standing guard, then unleash their proton torpedo's on those cannons. If/when the Merciless goes into stealth mode, i would have that convoy begin bombing the mass drivers of the Keldabes. Do remember that Punishing One carries proton torpedo's as well.

My corvettes will most likely be integrated within the fleet, as they have a greater range than a standard starfighter screen. Which means they will be somewhat protected from your Star Destroyers which will have to enter the firing range to get to them. What they certainly won't be doing is breaking ranks. My experience with EaW has told me that sending corvettes after fighters into anywhere other than empty space is a foolish move, as it leaves them exposed.

 

And they don't need to. You are placing too much emphasis on the importance of fighters which the Empire regarded as peripheral, they are not a major threat and don't need to be eliminated only repelled. So my corvettes can just let them come. Now if you do have bombers which have to be intercepted before they get within range I'd point to the corvettes incredible speed, they are more than capable of keeping up with small craft and can easily dip in and out of range, effectively swooping in to destroy your bombers and then swooping back out before they can suffer any significant damage.

 

Now you could turn the Lusankya to broad side but this would still prevent it from bringing its guns to bear and would probably put them out of range entirely, unless the Lusankya moves forward but that will take some time.

 

Forming a triangle with your Star Destroyers is effectively making a weaker version of the Lusankya and the same tactics apply, focus all fire on the tip and then slowly break down the formation. Each ship getting blasted apart as it comes into range, like a conveyor belt of death if you are feeling poetic.

 

And as soon as your SDs come swooping (or rather crawling in) the corvettes will nip out of range and practice evasive manoeuvres, swooping back in only to tackle the threat of fighters.

 

Now as for your fighters, as previously explained their will be no dogfight - the corvettes and the fighters will stay out of any such engagements. And your fighters in reality aren't going to do much damage against the Keldabe's which have pretty strong shields and anti-fighter capabilities, and of course corvette protection.

 

As for this bombing run on the Merciless you are forgetting about the Crusader's point defense systems which will make short work of those concussion missile launchers and then be eradicated by laser cannons. The Punishing One won't do much better, and will probably be preoccupied by IG-2000.