tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Is he? Where has Malgus manipulated anyone before? And every single person Traya has manipulated has been aware of her intentions, Atton, Sion, Mandalore, Bao-Dur - she didn't hide behind smokes and mirrors. All she has to do is find their "shatterpoint" or just break them. Indeed we need to remember that this is conventional manipulation through words etc. she's going to enter Ventress' mind and bend it to her will. It doesn't really matter if Ventress has reasons for obeying Malgus, here mind simply isn't strong enough and really that is all that matters. EDIT: Also remember that if Traya "captures" Ventress Malgus won't be their to protect here. She either breaks or she dies, these are the options here. Sion only had the guts to turn against Traya when he had Nihilus for back up who effectively stripped Sion of his power and the ability to manipulate him. she black mailed most of them how do you intend to black mail Ventress and yes if Malgus isn't there Ventress will side with Traya momentarily just to save her own skin but the moment Malgus shows up she isn't going to take that kind of abuse any more. Forcefull smach down manipulation only lasts so long the others she blackmailed which works much better so what is she going to use against ventress as black mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Now I'm just beating a dead horse >.> Traya had moved Sion perfectly into position, had Nihilus survived Sion would never be able to go back to him, Nihilus wouldn't take him and the Sith Triumvirate they had formed would have been completely torn apart. As for the first part... She revived Dead people. Dead people. I do not recall dead people being brought back to life by either Meetra nor Traya if you can point to a non game mechanic in game cut scene of her preforming this technique please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 she black mailed most of them how do you intend to black mail Ventress and yes if Malgus isn't there Ventress will side with Traya momentarily just to save her own skin but the moment Malgus shows up she isn't going to take that kind of abuse any more. Forcefull smach down manipulation only lasts so long the others she blackmailed which works much better so what is she going to use against ventress as black mail. Wow... Ventress wouldn't want to follow Malgus in the first place!! And Malgus wouldn't want her back anyway, if she had defected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I do not recall dead people being brought back to life by either Meetra nor Traya if you can point to a non game mechanic in game cut scene of her preforming this technique please do. Tobin. Hanharr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) she black mailed most of them how do you intend to black mail Ventress and yes if Malgus isn't there Ventress will side with Traya momentarily just to save her own skin but the moment Malgus shows up she isn't going to take that kind of abuse any more. Forcefull smach down manipulation only lasts so long the others she blackmailed which works much better so what is she going to use against ventress as black mail.OK we are going off course again here, I was merely pointing out that your assertion that Traya manipulates people without them knowing is incorrect. Traya isn't going to use blackmail, she is going to use mental manipulation and probably physical torture. Her intentions will not be to persuade Ventress but to break her. Try to understand the difference. And these effects are permanent, remember how Malachor V was used to turn Jedi into mindless slaves i.e. Sith Assassins? You don't see them defecting at the first sight of the Republic, I doubt they even remember. Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tobin. Hanharr. rings no bells sorry don't remember them being dead and being brought back to life. I believe I remember them hurt...... not dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 rings no bells sorry don't remember them being dead and being brought back to life. I believe I remember them hurt...... not dead. Tobin was killed by the Drexl, and Hanharr was on the Verge of death.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 OK we are going off course again here, I was merely pointing out that your assertion that Traya manipulates people without them knowing is incorrect. Traya isn't going to use blackmail, she is going to use mental manipulation and probably physical torture. Her intentions will not be to persuade Ventress but to break her. Try to understand the difference. And these effects are permanent, remember how Malachor V was used to turn Jedi into mindless slaves i.e. Sith Assassins? You don't see them defecting at the first sight of the Republic, I doubt they even remember. And your telling me a Sith such as Malgus is not capable of breaking people through torture? Something I am pretty sure every Sith in the history of the galaxy has done.... hell I am pretty sure that is part of the trials to becoming a sith. Is this what I am currently hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 And your telling me a Sith such as Malgus is not capable of breaking people through torture? Something I am pretty sure every Sith in the history of the galaxy has done.... hell I am pretty sure that is part of the trials to becoming a sith. Is this what I am currently hearing. Generally you don't Torture your apprentice into becoming your slave. Breaking someone is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tobin was killed by the Drexl, and Hanharr was on the Verge of death.... Verge of death is not death..... and again Don't remember Tobin dieing either last I checked they were both near dead but not actually dead and Verge of death could mean a lot of different things. All she did was heal Mortal wounds that would have other wise killed them there is a point when some one is to far gone even for such an ability I see no reason this isn't the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Generally you don't Torture your apprentice into becoming your slave. Breaking someone is different. mmmmhmmmm ok hey Malak how did Bastilla become your apprentice again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 mmmmhmmmm ok hey Malak how did Bastilla become your apprentice again..... Ohhhh, one example... YAY! Also forgetting that that method was used widely in Revans' Sith Empire.... Not in the Resurgent Empire. Did Barass torture his apprentice into submission? Zash? Vowran? MALGUS? No. Sure, the odd lightning zapp for failure, but not like Malak, because they didn't have to corrupt them in the first place. Doing it to someone who pledges to your cause is overkill. Admit defeat, this is getting ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Verge of death is not death..... and again Don't remember Tobin dieing either last I checked they were both near dead but not actually dead and Verge of death could mean a lot of different things. All she did was heal Mortal wounds that would have other wise killed them there is a point when some one is to far gone even for such an ability I see no reason this isn't the case here. Tobin was "deceased" and Hanharr was on the Verge of Death, so was Traya.... And this entire debate started by me saying Traya could revive herself if she wanted to, and Hanharr is proof of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 And your telling me a Sith such as Malgus is not capable of breaking people through torture? Something I am pretty sure every Sith in the history of the galaxy has done.... hell I am pretty sure that is part of the trials to becoming a sith. Is this what I am currently hearing.Why would Malgus torture his ally? O_o That's just playing into Traya's hands. She could just offer Traya a place at her side with no torture and Ventress would take it up without a second thought, no questions asked. Ventress would probably just defect before that. Anyway regardless of that this is tenuous evidence at best. Just because he is a Sith Lord doesn't mean he's skilled at breaking people. I mean come on. In the Sith Warrior storyline you are sent to interrogate non-Force sensitive prisoners scared for their lives. That doesn't really compare to Sith. I'm sure Malgus would know how to interrogate prisoners but carefully manipulate Force sensitives into being his unwavering pawns? I highly doubt that. I mean how can you argue so vehemently that Traya won't be able to manipulate Ventress despite her being portrayed as a master manipulator and then go back and say that Malgus - a Sith Warrior who has shown no evidence of manipulation ability on that level - will most definitely be able to succeed in this field? Where is the logic here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ohhhh, one example... YAY! Also forgetting that that method was used widely in Revans' Sith Empire.... Not in the Resurgent Empire. Did Barass torture his apprentice into submission? Zash? Vowran? MALGUS? No. Sure, the odd lightning zapp for failure, but not like Malak, because they didn't have to corrupt them in the first place. Doing it to someone who pledges to your cause is overkill. Admit defeat, this is getting ridiculous. Oh and where did Revan's empire learn such tactics.... oh ya from their time spent in the Resurgent Empire. The point is if traya does that to her and sends her after Malgus she isn't going to have the guts to fight Malgus of whom she knows how powerful he is. Your right this is ridiculous its been such since you suggested the defection when Traya has no leverage against her something she had in every other manipulation she has ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tobin was "deceased" and Hanharr was on the Verge of Death, so was Traya.... And this entire debate started by me saying Traya could revive herself if she wanted to, and Hanharr is proof of this...Yeah this debate is pointless, I don't even know why its happening. However for what its worth I think Traya probably could have healed herself after being stabbed or whatever by Meetra Surik. Those injuries are no worse by those suffered by Hanharr or Tobin, remembering that Mira outright gunned Hanharr down and thought he was dead. So yeah, she didn't have any reason to live anymore so she died. Anyway what was the purpose of that discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tobin was "deceased" and Hanharr was on the Verge of Death, so was Traya.... And this entire debate started by me saying Traya could revive herself if she wanted to, and Hanharr is proof of this... Pretty sure they were both still alive she healed mortal wounds there is a point when some one is to far gone she was likely one of those times (as in farther gone then either Tobin or Hanharr). The scene parallels Vader's and we know Vader survived worse to but could not their so no I don't think she could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Yeah this debate is pointless, I don't even know why its happening. However for what its worth I think Traya probably could have healed herself after being stabbed or whatever by Meetra Surik. Those injuries are no worse by those suffered by Hanharr or Tobin, remembering that Mira outright gunned Hanharr down and thought he was dead. So yeah, she didn't have any reason to live anymore so she died. Anyway what was the purpose of that discussion? Sprang from the manipulation debate... He was talking about everyone she manipulated turned against her, and the Exile resulted in her Death... and I said she didn't, because she could save herself :l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Sprang from the manipulation debate... He was talking about everyone she manipulated turned against her, and the Exile resulted in her Death... and I said she didn't, because she could save herself :lBut Traya manipulated the Exile into killing her... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 But Traya manipulated the Exile into killing her... Exactly my point. If she wanted to live she could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Why would Malgus torture his ally? O_o That's just playing into Traya's hands. She could just offer Traya a place at her side with no torture and Ventress would take it up without a second thought, no questions asked. Ventress would probably just defect before that. Anyway regardless of that this is tenuous evidence at best. Just because he is a Sith Lord doesn't mean he's skilled at breaking people. I mean come on. In the Sith Warrior storyline you are sent to interrogate non-Force sensitive prisoners scared for their lives. That doesn't really compare to Sith. I'm sure Malgus would know how to interrogate prisoners but carefully manipulate Force sensitives into being his unwavering pawns? I highly doubt that. I mean how can you argue so vehemently that Traya won't be able to manipulate Ventress despite her being portrayed as a master manipulator and then go back and say that Malgus - a Sith Warrior who has shown no evidence of manipulation ability on that level - will most definitely be able to succeed in this field? Where is the logic here? he doesn't have to do it at the start, though he may do so after the whole betrayal of Durge in the first time. You of course all miss the friken point the point is it only works when the person breaking the other is the stronger Dark sider then the person being broken and the person being broken isn't sent after the a more powerful Darksider then the one that broke them. Traya fills the requirement of being more powerful then Ventress but she does not fill the requirement of being more powerful then Malgus as such it wont work if Ventress is sent after Malgus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) Oh and where did Revan's empire learn such tactics.... oh ya from their time spent in the Resurgent Empire. The point is if traya does that to her and sends her after Malgus she isn't going to have the guts to fight Malgus of whom she knows how powerful he is. Your right this is ridiculous its been such since you suggested the defection when Traya has no leverage against her something she had in every other manipulation she has ever done.How about we just stop this discussion and move on. All arguments are valid and will be considered, nothing being presented here is ridiculous.. Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 But Traya manipulated the Exile into killing her... NO. /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 How about we just stop this discussion and move on. All arguments are valid and will be considered, nothing being presented here is ridiculous.. great then you will listen to all of my counter arguments and likely ignore them because its traya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) NO. /5charWhat? So why do you think Traya lured her to Malachor then? Do you actually think Traya wanted to kill the Exile? Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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