Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

No one really replied to my questions at the start about Making Maul into a new Sion....

 

He already managed to survive due to his rage, was just curious

[tunewalker]

Maul is not going to become another Sion, Ventress has no real reason to defect none have been given outside of Traya just being awesome and some how magically making it happen.

 

As for Greivous being beaten by gungans..... um I hope every one does realize A he wasn't trying from the start and that ever single one of those Gungans were highly trained and extremely skilled Assassins may be better but they wont be that much better nor will they outnumber him by as much nor will he underestimate them like he did the gungans. The gungans did as well as they did because Greivous underestimated them (as is every one here) and they turned out to be an extremely skilled group of fighters with an iron will willing to do anything to win (even sacrifice their own lives)

[Aurbere]

(I don't like grevious >.>)

 

He never asked for this.

[Beniboybling]

It does as Krayt states, he says himself plain as day that Dark Healing has it's roots deeply in the Light Side technique Sever Force, one must master it before one can master Dark Healing, he also makes exactly that comparison, the effects are directly tied into how powerful the people involved are.

 

Sidious makes the clear statement that the more powerful the victims the more difficult his power is to use, so he had to go into a very deep state of meditation to very slowly drain the life force of the billions on Byss.

 

Nihilus wasn't merely stating out he had already absorbed the lives of many other much smaller groups of people, it was a gradual thing and Katarr(including the Jedi) were merely the largest target yet, he was clearly very very powerful and deep into his void-like state if he had to drained the planet, the Miraluka and about half the Jedi Order all in one go.

 

Nihilus was also clearly beyond Traya's power and everyone else's so I don't understand where you got that belief from, Sion was with him because clearly they were going their own ways afterwards which is exactly what they did.

 

Where Traya is concerned, i highly doubt that Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook and Lamar would be any match for Traya considering they were themselves opened up for an attack when they were in the middle of Sever Force.

I'm not sure your thinking of the right dark healing, it was my belief that Traya was simply manipulating the bodies of her opponents and willing them to die... anyway concerning Force Drain I maintain the analogy that its like eating a meal. If that meal is too large you simply can't eat it all, but that doesn't mean you can't take several mouthfuls.

 

After all the Sith Assassins used Force drain on Jedi presumably more powerful than them - and in never failed. It even worked to effect against Meetra Surik, though I'm not sure the mechanics of that given that she was a wound in the Force. Anyway the Jedi Council were like cupcakes to Traya and she just gobbled them up, but Malgus is like a seven course meal, however that doesn't mean she can't effect him at all, he would be weakened somewhat.

 

Especially given that the disparity between these two is by no means large, they are both powerful Sith Lords and are right next to one another on the REAL Most Powerful Sith list. Let's not assume Traya is outclassed.

 

And I'm not really sure it bears any similarites to Sever Force at all save the after effects, Sever Force is a light side power that effectively entails building a wall around your opponent and blocking them off from the Force. Force drain is a dark side variant that literally sucks them dry.

 

P.S. For the record the Jedi Council were more than prepared, they listened to her whole speech and drew their lightsabers. I don't think any of them can argue that they were caught off guard or even weakened.

[Beniboybling]

Anyway I think I have contributed enough to make the point that as soon as the DI makes an open attack, it's going to be stuck and sooner rather than later the numbers game totally takes over any battles.

 

Once the DI goes on the offensive and reveals itself even in a minor way, the UB goes on high alert, switches on those Gravity Well Projectors and then it is just a matter of time, essentially the more casualties the DI take the less chance it has, it would have to win in a single enormous battle using traps and surprise to maximum effect.

 

However on that note I do not believe at all that the DI could hit hard enough to take out the UB in one go, I honestly think any engagement is going to be a protracted one, if anything the UB is built for endurance in every single way, all the people and ships are made to last.

 

This is the Achilles' heel for the DI, the DI can't kill the UB fast enough for the UB not to have time to call in reinforcements at which point, once again, the DI is trapped and ground down, the UB has all the time in the galaxy, the DI does not have a good enough ability to replenish it's own forces to state the same thing, they just cannot afford casualties or their ability to do pretty much anything is diminished bit by bit, the massive naval advantage is once again in effect here.

 

The UB from top to bottom is built for attrition, stamina and endurance yet the only way the DI could win is in one quick engagement, it just does not measure up, the DI can hit hard, but not hard enough to cripple the UB, which is what they would have to do.

 

On that note, I have my own tournament to iron out and build up, have fun gentlemen I will return if this Kaggath runs out of arguments.

This is a good point, while I'd make clear that the Imperium can slip past almost all the enemies defenses, once they reveal themselves they will be surrounded. Their is little chance they can achieve space superiority and then its just a case of Malgus landing troops on the ground and slowly eradicating the invading forces.

 

So Traya is going to have to put on a big show if she wants to force personal action from Malgus.

[Beniboybling]

(I don't like grevious >.>)

[Beniboybling]

Maul is not going to become another Sion, Ventress has no real reason to defect none have been given outside of Traya just being awesome and some how magically making it happen.

I think the argument is that Ventress' mind is fairly malleable. Traya has shown herself capable of extreme mental manipulation and could quite possibly force Ventress into submission and manipulate her into servitude.

 

I mean just look how much dominance she had over Sion. One minute he's usurping her and attempting to kill her and the next he's a scared little puppy doing her bidding again in an almost obsessive manner.

"There is nothing left for me except my master..."

 

"She will break you, and she did me, and you will no longer know yourself..."

 

You get the idea.

 

In regards to the current topic, I think we are getting a little too bogged down in these vs brawls again. I highly doubt Malgus would dispatch Durge, Grievous and Ventress alone to kill Traya. He needs Grievous to command his naval forces and I think we'd all agree Traya can take on Durge and Ventress fairly easily. He's going to have to take her down personally if he wan't to ensure her death. But again we shouldn't focus on these vs brawls and instead focus on how combatants can manuevre their enemies into vulnerably positions were they can be dispatched easily. Like it or not if Traya is surrounded and with nowhere to go, she is going to die, same with Malgus.

[tunewalker]

Oh something that should be noted BOTH combatants are aware of how they lost before and in Malgus's case this was defection of Durge and underhanded stealth and sabotage tactics Thus he is going to be watching his people carefully (A.K.A Ventress is not defecting) and he is going to know what is up the moment the DI try to use stealth neither of these tactics are going to work on Malgus this time around.

 

 

 

Edit: honestly I kind of don't like the idea that both people know how they lost it means we are essentially adding something to their history and personalities that weren't there I would prefer both sides stay ignorant of what happens here on the forums and we just use the cannon events and not the ones that happened in previous Kaggath.

[tunewalker]

I think the argument is that Ventress' mind is fairly malleable. Traya has shown herself capable of extreme mental manipulation and could quite possibly force Ventress into submission and manipulate her into servitude.

 

I mean just look how much dominance she had over Sion. One minute he's usurping her and attempting to kill her and the next he's a scared little puppy doing her bidding again in an almost obsessive manner.

"There is nothing left for me except my master..."

 

"She will break you, and she did me, and you will no longer know yourself..."

 

You get the idea.

 

In regards to the current topic, I think we are getting a little too bogged down in these vs brawls again. I highly doubt Malgus would dispatch Durge, Grievous and Ventress alone to kill Traya. He needs Grievous to command his naval forces and I think we'd all agree Traya can take on Durge and Ventress fairly easily. He's going to have to take her down personally if he wan't to ensure her death. But again we shouldn't focus on these vs brawls and instead focus on how combatants can manuevre their enemies into vulnerably positions were they can be dispatched easily. Like it or not if Traya is surrounded and with nowhere to go, she is going to die, same with Malgus.

 

again we have to remember while she can manipulate she does it best like all other manipulators when the person she is manipulating doesn't know her motives and Malgus is just as capable of breaking her as Traya is.

[Selenial]

again we have to remember while she can manipulate she does it best like all other manipulators when the person she is manipulating doesn't know her motives and Malgus is just as capable of breaking her as Traya is.

 

Tell that to Sion.

 

Or even the Exile. The Exile was warned of Traya's manipulations and she still let her stay because she had her uses. Obviously suggesting she knew Traya was using her.

[Selenial]

Oh something that should be noted BOTH combatants are aware of how they lost before and in Malgus's case this was defection of Durge and underhanded stealth and sabotage tactics Thus he is going to be watching his people carefully (A.K.A Ventress is not defecting) and he is going to know what is up the moment the DI try to use stealth neither of these tactics are going to work on Malgus this time around.

 

Wait wait wait.... Malgus was facing a military force 100x larger than his, and yet you're saying his last kaggath was lost because of Stealth and underhanded tactics? Sure Durge defected, but if anything, thats an Advantage for ME. Malgus won't trust him anywhere near as much, and would be looking on his apprentice less.

[tunewalker]

Tell that to Sion.

 

Or even the Exile. The Exile was warned of Traya's manipulations and she still let her stay because she had her uses. Obviously suggesting she knew Traya was using her.

 

Sion who switched to Nihilus the moment he could and turned on traya..... The exile who later killed traya and was ultimately not personally harmed by traya's "manipulation" at all ok I will let them know how Traya Totally used both of them when there was a more powerful or equally powerful sith lord breathing down their necks.... oh wait........

[Selenial]

Sion who switched to Nihilus the moment he could and turned on traya..... The exile who later killed traya and was ultimately not personally harmed by traya's "manipulation" at all ok I will let them know how Traya Totally used both of them when there was a more powerful or equally powerful sith lord breathing down their necks.... oh wait........

 

You're joking... Right?

 

The point was AFTER they exiled Traya. She came back, roflstomped him and manipulated him into her dog again...

 

And the Exile didn't want to Kill Traya. Traya wanted to die.

She could have saved herself if she wanted to, she brought people back from the dead ffs.

[tunewalker]

Wait wait wait.... Malgus was facing a military force 100x larger than his, and yet you're saying his last kaggath was lost because of Stealth and underhanded tactics? Sure Durge defected, but if anything, thats an Advantage for ME. Malgus won't trust him anywhere near as much, and would be looking on his apprentice less.

 

No he wont trust ANY one he was winning that war remember go read the scenarios he was still beating his opponent he only lost do to smugglers hit and run stealth tactics and sabotage as well as his opponents ability to stay hidden and then his own ship eventually firing on him while he was on the ground. He is going to be cautios of EVERYONE turning not just Durge he will be watching them all.

[tunewalker]

You're joking... Right?

 

The point was AFTER they exiled Traya. She came back, roflstomped him and manipulated him into her dog again...

 

And the Exile didn't want to Kill Traya. Traya wanted to die.

She could have saved herself if she wanted to, she brought people back from the dead ffs.

 

Ya when there was no more Nihilus pulling Sion away... in other words Sion only came back when the stronger sith was no longer there surprise surprise it doesn't fit into your description of what she is going to do to Ventress and is exactly why I am saying Ventress wont switch because Malgus is still their and is still stronger thus she isn't going any where congrats on finally catching up to the conversation.

 

The exile wanted to stop her, this led to a fight and led to the death of traya and I highly doubt Traya could have survived even if she wanted to I never got that from the 6 times I played the game.

 

 

Edit: seriously I cant believe you brought up him returning and getting ROFL stomped by a more powerful opponent and then switching to her side when there was no more powerful Master to turn to as a point for her manipulating anything that's standard sith crap right there not manipulation and has nothing to do with what you are suggesting is going to happen to ventress as their is a powerful master still available beyond Traya in Malgus.

Edited October 5, 2013 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Ya when there was no more Nihilus pulling Sion away... in other words Sion only came back when the stronger sith was no longer there surprise surprise it doesn't fit into your description of what she is going to do to Ventress and is exactly why I am saying Ventress wont switch because Malgus is still their and is still stronger thus she isn't going any where congrats on finally catching up to the conversation.

 

I find this hilarious.

Again you don't think.

 

Traya was on Malachor before Nihilus died. She had subdued sion before Nihilus died....

 

The exile wanted to stop her, this led to a fight and led to the death of traya and I highly doubt Traya could have survived even if she wanted to I never got that from the 6 times I played the game.

 

"I can still save you..."

"You already have, more than you could possibly know" She wanted to die.

But I wouldn't expect you to have understood that anyway, from what you've said you really didn't listen to most of the conversations, or you'd know this.

[Selenial]

Edit: seriously I cant believe you brought up him returning and getting ROFL stomped by a more powerful opponent and then switching to her side when there was no more powerful Master to turn to as a point for her manipulating anything that's standard sith crap right there not manipulation.

 

And yet you still miss the point.

 

Incredible.

[tunewalker]

I find this hilarious.

Again you don't think.

 

Traya was on Malachor before Nihilus died. She had subdued sion before Nihilus died....

 

 

 

"I can still save you..."

"You already have, more than you could possibly know" She wanted to die.

But I wouldn't expect you to have understood that anyway, from what you've said you really didn't listen to most of the conversations, or you'd know this.

 

1:20 sound familiar I really cant point out why but it really does.

 

 

Also pretty sure I killed nihilus before traya killed the council members its been a while but I am almost positive the traya killing the masters and returning to Malachor happened AFTER the death of nihilus since I went straight to malachor after the masters were killed and then we saw the cut scene you are talking about with Sion returning to Traya's side so no I am pretty sure Nihilus was dead.

[Beniboybling]

Edit: honestly I kind of don't like the idea that both people know how they lost it means we are essentially adding something to their history and personalities that weren't there I would prefer both sides stay ignorant of what happens here on the forums and we just use the cannon events and not the ones that happened in previous Kaggath.

Well I was only going to make it a losers bracket thing...

[tunewalker]

Well I was only going to make it a losers bracket thing...

 

I understand that.

[Selenial]

1:20 sound familiar I really cant point out why but it really does.

Kk great. Doesn't have any relation to the argument but Ok.

 

Also pretty sure I killed nihilus before traya killed the council members its been a while but I am almost positive the traya killing the masters and returning to Malachor happened AFTER the death of nihilus since I went straight to malachor after the masters were killed and then we saw the cut scene you are talking about with Sion returning to Traya's side so no I am pretty sure Nihilus was dead.

 

No.

Council meating, Traya goes with the Handmaiden to Atris. You awake, get to the Hawk. Traya talks to Atris, then leaves for Malachor, you arrive on Telos shortly after, talk to Atris. Cutscene with Traya, then you head to save Citadel Station and kill Nihilus...

[Beniboybling]

again we have to remember while she can manipulate she does it best like all other manipulators when the person she is manipulating doesn't know her motives and Malgus is just as capable of breaking her as Traya is.

Is he? Where has Malgus manipulated anyone before?

 

And every single person Traya has manipulated has been aware of her intentions, Atton, Sion, Mandalore, Bao-Dur - she didn't hide behind smokes and mirrors. All she has to do is find their "shatterpoint" or just break them.

 

Indeed we need to remember that this is conventional manipulation through words etc. she's going to enter Ventress' mind and bend it to her will. It doesn't really matter if Ventress has reasons for obeying Malgus, here mind simply isn't strong enough and really that is all that matters.

 

EDIT: Also remember that if Traya "captures" Ventress Malgus won't be their to protect here. She either breaks or she dies, these are the options here. Sion only had the guts to turn against Traya when he had Nihilus for back up who effectively stripped Sion of his power and the ability to manipulate him.

 

EDIT: However I do agree with you that Ventress won't defect if she has Malgus at her back, but Traya will probably have her captured and brought to Malachor V or something, and then there really isn't any hope for her.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Is he? Where has Malgus manipulated anyone before?

 

And every single person Traya has manipulated has been aware of her intentions, Atton, Sion, Mandalore, Bao-Dur - she didn't hide behind smokes and mirrors. All she has to do is find their "shatterpoint" or just break them.

 

Indeed we need to remember that this is conventional manipulation through words etc. she's going to enter Ventress' mind and bend it to her will. It doesn't really matter if Ventress has reasons for obeying Malgus, here mind simply isn't strong enough and really that is all that matters.

 

And after Dooku, Savage... Ventress is wary of Sith betraying her, Traya would have a field day.

[tunewalker]

Kk great. Doesn't have any relation to the argument but Ok.

 

 

 

No.

Council meating, Traya goes with the Handmaiden to Atris. You awake, get to the Hawk. Traya talks to Atris, then leaves for Malachor, you arrive on Telos shortly after, talk to Atris. Cutscene with Traya, then you head to save Citadel Station and kill Nihilus...

 

It has everything to do with the argument just because a lightsider says they can saver a dieing person doesn't mean they can and the fact that they parallel the DV scene just means it was supposed to hold the same meaning and weight as it so while Meetra believed she could save traya she likely could not.

 

 

She still didn't send sion after Nihilus and had she done so he would have immediately swapped back to Nihilus again to avoid the potential for Nihilus's wrath. Just like what would happen with Ventress if she smacked Ventress down she would join her and the moment Malgus is back she isn't going to hesitate to swap back to the pervieved more powerful Sith.

[Selenial]

It has everything to do with the argument just because a lightsider says they can saver a dieing person doesn't mean they can and the fact that they parallel the DV scene just means it was supposed to hold the same meaning and weight as it so while Meetra believed she could save traya she likely could not.

 

 

She still didn't send sion after Nihilus and had she done so he would have immediately swapped back to Nihilus again to avoid the potential for Nihilus's wrath. Just like what would happen with Ventress if she smacked Ventress down she would join her and the moment Malgus is back she isn't going to hesitate to swap back to the pervieved more powerful Sith.

 

Now I'm just beating a dead horse >.>

 

Traya had moved Sion perfectly into position, had Nihilus survived Sion would never be able to go back to him, Nihilus wouldn't take him and the Sith Triumvirate they had formed would have been completely torn apart.

 

As for the first part... She revived Dead people. Dead people.