Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Aurbere]

Malgus faces the same issue that the Ancient Jedi Council faced. He's fighting an enemy that he won't face in battle. While he could effectively steamroll any military resistance, the Imperium is fighting in the shadows.

 

It is much harder to catch smoke than it is to catch a huttball.

[Selenial]

It is much harder to catch smoke than it is to catch a huttball.

Best.

Analogy.

Ever.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Selenial

[LadyKulvax]

Secondly, I'm pretty certain that the ability rooted in sever force Doesn't HAVE to have the same weaknesses as the actual ability.

 

Collectively you'd think every Jedi on Katarr was a match for Nihilus who was just sorta starting out, but no. Or the three most powerful Jedi Masters alive were a match for Traya who had had the force ripped from her, but no.

 

Also, Nihilus when he took Traya down? Not powerful enough to do it alone. Yet he still cut her off from the force, so it seems your example isn't solidly consistent.

 

It does as Krayt states, he says himself plain as day that Dark Healing has it's roots deeply in the Light Side technique Sever Force, one must master it before one can master Dark Healing, he also makes exactly that comparison, the effects are directly tied into how powerful the people involved are.

 

Sidious makes the clear statement that the more powerful the victims the more difficult his power is to use, so he had to go into a very deep state of meditation to very slowly drain the life force of the billions on Byss.

 

Nihilus wasn't merely stating out he had already absorbed the lives of many other much smaller groups of people, it was a gradual thing and Katarr(including the Jedi) were merely the largest target yet, he was clearly very very powerful and deep into his void-like state if he had to drained the planet, the Miraluka and about half the Jedi Order all in one go.

 

Nihilus was also clearly beyond Traya's power and everyone else's so I don't understand where you got that belief from, Sion was with him because clearly they were going their own ways afterwards which is exactly what they did.

 

Where Traya is concerned, i highly doubt that Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook and Lamar would be any match for Traya considering they were themselves opened up for an attack when they were in the middle of Sever Force.

[Beniboybling]

It does as Krayt states, he says himself plain as day that Dark Healing has it's roots deeply in the Light Side technique Sever Force, one must master it before one can master Dark Healing, he also makes exactly that comparison, the effects are directly tied into how powerful the people involved are.

 

Sidious makes the clear statement that the more powerful the victims the more difficult his power is to use, so he had to go into a very deep state of meditation to very slowly drain the life force of the billions on Byss.

 

Nihilus wasn't merely stating out he had already absorbed the lives of many other much smaller groups of people, it was a gradual thing and Katarr(including the Jedi) were merely the largest target yet, he was clearly very very powerful and deep into his void-like state if he had to drained the planet, the Miraluka and about half the Jedi Order all in one go.

 

Nihilus was also clearly beyond Traya's power and everyone else's so I don't understand where you got that belief from, Sion was with him because clearly they were going their own ways afterwards which is exactly what they did.

 

Where Traya is concerned, i highly doubt that Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook and Lamar would be any match for Traya considering they were themselves opened up for an attack when they were in the middle of Sever Force.

I think we should draw away from this vs discussion, when Malgus dies he'll be surronded with insurmountable odds, and Traya will die in the same situation. The battlefield isn't just going to fade away and allow for some sort of 1v1 confrontation.

[Warren-Stride]

Because Traya isn't going to allow Malgus to play on his terms. She's not just going to hole up on Malachor and attempt to disrupt Malgus' actions. She's going to be very active, and as always attempt to shape events to her liking. And as much as we could rail against it, the Kaggath is probably going to play out according to her terms. Of course its an entirely different matter whether that will be successful or not.

 

This exactly.

 

However, even if Traya wins the war and defeats Malgus' campaigns and takes his worlds, that's not in of itself an endgame scenario. She's still gotta actually kill him.

 

That being said, I think Traya simply has more ability to kill Malgus than the opposite. Malgus doesn't have any special-ops forces, while Traya has tons. I guess the question is one of assassination or defeat. Traya is unlikely to be killed via assassination attempt, but could be killed if beaten in a war. Malgus is more susceptible (in my opinion) to an assassination, but is unlikely to be defeated in combat via military.

 

On that note, it's still worth discussing a "Cutting off the Head" strategy for the UB. Malgus is like the king of strike teams. He loves having groups of elite beings do stuff for him. Does it not sound like a Malgus-like flashpoint mission to send Durge, Ventress, and Grievous to hunt Traya down? I mean literally that's BH, SI, and SW. Just add a random medic guy in there and there's his strike team! Although it would place him in a difficult position for managing his forces, if Traya's location is discovered, it seems all too in-character of him the send those three her way.

 

Which could end one of two ways. Either Traya is killed, the end. Or, Malgus loses all of his allies.

 

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much! Super busy! Miss you guys! <3

Edited October 5, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Aurbere]

Best.

Analogy.

Ever.

 

Because it's true.

[Aurbere]

I'm going to work on my own final argument for this match. Will post it tomorrow.

[Selenial]

This exactly.

 

However, even if Traya wins the war and defeats Malgus' campaigns and takes his worlds, that's not in of itself an endgame scenario. She's still gotta actually kill him.

 

That being said, I think Traya simply has more ability to kill Malgus than the opposite. Malgus doesn't have any special-ops forces, while Traya has tons. I guess the question is one of assassination or defeat. Traya is unlikely to be killed via assassination attempt, but could be killed if beaten in a war. Malgus is more susceptible (in my opinion) to an assassination, but is unlikely to be defeated in combat via military.

 

On that note, it's still worth discussing a "Cutting off the Head" strategy for the UB. Malgus is like the king of strike teams. He loves having groups of elite beings do stuff for him. Does it not sound like a Malgus-like flashpoint mission to send Durge, Ventress, and Grievous to hunt Traya down? I mean literally that's BH, SI, and SW. Just add a random medic guy in there and there's his strike team! Although it would place him in a difficult position for managing his forces, if Traya's location is discovered, it seems all too in-character of him the send those three her way.

 

Which could end one of two ways. Either Traya is killed, the end. Or, Malgus loses all of his allies.

 

 

Sorry I haven't been posting much! Super busy! Miss you guys! <3

 

 

That's something I hadn't considered, but really does make sense...

 

And what I see happening? Maul and the Assassins take on Durge and Grevious, with it pretty much being a win for Maul and the 'sins with Grevious and durge running (Or both running for that matter) whilst Traya has split Ventress off and is corrupting her to the DI...

 

Oh, and no, I'm not going to let that defecting scenario go, it just makes too much sense

[LadyKulvax]

Anyway I think I have contributed enough to make the point that as soon as the DI makes an open attack, it's going to be stuck and sooner rather than later the numbers game totally takes over any battles.

 

Once the DI goes on the offensive and reveals itself even in a minor way, the UB goes on high alert, switches on those Gravity Well Projectors and then it is just a matter of time, essentially the more casualties the DI take the less chance it has, it would have to win in a single enormous battle using traps and surprise to maximum effect.

 

However on that note I do not believe at all that the DI could hit hard enough to take out the UB in one go, I honestly think any engagement is going to be a protracted one, if anything the UB is built for endurance in every single way, all the people and ships are made to last.

 

This is the Achilles' heel for the DI, the DI can't kill the UB fast enough for the UB not to have time to call in reinforcements at which point, once again, the DI is trapped and ground down, the UB has all the time in the galaxy, the DI does not have a good enough ability to replenish it's own forces to state the same thing, they just cannot afford casualties or their ability to do pretty much anything is diminished bit by bit, the massive naval advantage is once again in effect here.

 

The UB from top to bottom is built for attrition, stamina and endurance yet the only way the DI could win is in one quick engagement, it just does not measure up, the DI can hit hard, but not hard enough to cripple the UB, which is what they would have to do.

 

On that note, I have my own tournament to iron out and build up, have fun gentlemen I will return if this Kaggath runs out of arguments.

Edited October 5, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

That's something I hadn't considered, but really does make sense...

 

And what I see happening? Maul and the Assassins take on Durge and Grevious, with it pretty much being a win for Maul and the 'sins with Grevious and durge running (Or both running for that matter) whilst Traya has split Ventress off and is corrupting her to the DI...

 

Oh, and no, I'm not going to let that defecting scenario go, it just makes too much sense

 

I don't really believe that Maul and Sith assassins can beat Grievous and Durge. Let alone Durge.

[LadyKulvax]

I don't really believe that Maul and Sith assassins can beat Grievous and Durge. Let alone Durge.

 

Okay my real final note(honest), this!

 

Maul and some Assassins defeating two powerhouse tanks, both very hard to kill and worse yet non-force users.

 

Non-force users means? the Assassins get swatted like flies it quickly turns into a two on one, Maul dies.

Edited October 5, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

I don't really believe that Maul and Sith assassins can beat Grievous and Durge. Let alone Durge.

 

Well, they sort of have the Home field Advantage.

 

Maul could keep Durge back, the Assassins can take Grevious out... Once Grevious retreats, Durge will....

[Selenial]

Okay my real final note(honest), this!

 

Maul and some Assassins defeating two powerhouse tanks, both very hard to kill and worse yet non-force users.

 

Non-force users means? the Assassins get swatted like flies it quickly turns into a two on one, Maul dies.

 

Force user or not they're incredible skilled with a blade.

 

Oh, and Gungans with staffs defeated Grevious.

 

Gungans.

[Aurbere]

Well, they sort of have the Home field Advantage.

 

Maul could keep Durge back, the Assassins can take Grevious out... Once Grevious retreats, Durge will....

 

Durge has been fighting Jedi for a long time. He has regularly made Anakin and Obi-Wan look pathetic in comparison. Heck, he even handled Plo Koon and Kit Fisto simultaneously.

 

And the Assassins taking out Grievous? Do I really need to say something here?

[Warren-Stride]

Oh, and Gungans with staffs defeated Grevious.

 

Gungans.

 

No.

 

No they didn't.

 

Please go watch the clip again. And don't say offensive things about Grievous that aren't true.

[Selenial]

Durge has been fighting Jedi for a long time. He has regularly made Anakin and Obi-Wan look pathetic in comparison. Heck, he even handled Plo Koon and Kit Fisto simultaneously.

 

And the Assassins taking out Grievous? Do I really need to say something here?

 

Again, Kenobi held him back alone.

 

Not for long, obviously, but Maul could still do it.

 

And SERIOUSLY underestimating the Assassins, and Overestimating Grevious.

 

The Assassins didn't increase in Saber skill when near force sensitives, so they obviously had knowledge of the Forms whilst not near Jedi, and that's all they need to face Grevious. If they could take on Jedi, I'd say about 10 assassins could take Grevious down.

[LadyKulvax]

Force user or not they're incredible skilled with a blade.

 

Oh, and Gungans with staffs defeated Grevious.

 

Gungans.

 

Maul and Savage got owned by a bunch of bounty hunters.....

 

Grievous quickly wiped out the Night Sisters and their zombie horde with some droids and then tore Talzin's clan down with ease, he also defeated four Jedi like nothing.

 

Honestly Grievous' ability varies dramatically even in the same damn show.

 

As far as the Assassins go, the completely under-powered Kreia, the completely under-powered Exile and.... Atton Rand..... took them out on-board the Harbinger with absolute ease, it was almost a joke, in-fact the Exile DID joke about them.

Edited October 5, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

No.

 

No they didn't.

 

Please go watch the clip again. And don't say offensive things about Grievous that aren't true.

 

I can't find it on youtube, got a link?

 

From my memory, they held him off for a bit, showed that electrostaves are actually a weakness of Grevious, then that one guy got stabbed and rammed a spike through Grevious' heart?

 

Those are gungans. Times their staff prowess by about 50x, and you get the Assassins...

[Aurbere]

Again, Kenobi held him back alone.

 

Not for long, obviously, but Maul could still do it.

 

And SERIOUSLY underestimating the Assassins, and Overestimating Grevious.

 

The Assassins didn't increase in Saber skill when near force sensitives, so they obviously had knowledge of the Forms whilst not near Jedi, and that's all they need to face Grevious. If they could take on Jedi, I'd say about 10 assassins could take Grevious down.

 

Yes, Kenobi did hold him back alone. Which seems odd considering two of the Order's best were fairly easily handled by Durge. Odd, I know.

 

Having Grievous against several enemies is putting him in his best element. As we saw on Hypori, Grievous fairly easily bested three Jedi Masters and a Jedi Knight with relative ease. Multiple enemies that have no idea what Grievous is capable of? Yeah, the Assassins are in trouble.

[Selenial]

Maul and Savage got owned by a bunch of bounty hunters.....

 

Grievous quickly wiped out the Night Sisters and their zombie horde with some droids and then tore Talzin's clan down with ease, he also defeated four Jedi like nothing.

 

Honestly Grievous' ability varies dramatically even in the same damn show.

 

As far as the Assassins go, the completely under-powered Kreia, the completely under-powered Exile and.... Atton Rand..... took them out on-board the Harbinger with absolute ease, it was almost a joke, in-fact the Exile DID joke about them.

 

I was under the Opinion that it was a tiring battle, and of course, the Exile and Kreia, as Kreia said, were using each other to feed the force through each other....

 

Also, atton was a trained Assassin, had skill in Vibroblades and Blasters enough to take down Jedi, so he obviously was more skilled than you make out...

[Warren-Stride]

I can't find it on youtube, got a link?

 

 

Grievous was basically toying with them the whole time. He was literally laughing at their efforts.

[Selenial]

Yes, Kenobi did hold him back alone. Which seems odd considering two of the Order's best were fairly easily handled by Durge. Odd, I know.

 

Having Grievous against several enemies is putting him in his best element. As we saw on Hypori, Grievous fairly easily bested three Jedi Masters and a Jedi Knight with relative ease. Multiple enemies that have no idea what Grievous is capable of? Yeah, the Assassins are in trouble.

 

Gungans

 

Lol but seriously, that was only one thing that could happen if Traya was to be found...

 

We don't even know what planet they're on ^.^

[LadyKulvax]

I was under the Opinion that it was a tiring battle, and of course, the Exile and Kreia, as Kreia said, were using each other to feed the force through each other....

 

Also, atton was a trained Assassin, had skill in Vibroblades and Blasters enough to take down Jedi, so he obviously was more skilled than you make out...

 

They had a strong force-bond, a very strong force bond, they still owned the assassins and I am not 'making out' anything, Atton Rand just one of the members of the Jedi capturing squads during the war against the more powerful version of the same thing? he and those two still took down scores of them with relative ease.

[Selenial]

 

Grievous was basically toying with them the whole time. He was literally laughing at their efforts.

 

Yeh...

 

No.

 

He laughed, but that was before the fight. In the fight, they still did Alright.

 

The point is, the Assassins are way better with Staves, Staves hurt grevious as much as those Water-bombs, and Grevious still got taken out by Gungans XD

 

(I don't like grevious >.>)

[LadyKulvax]

Yeh...

 

No.

 

He laughed, but that was before the fight. In the fight, they still did Alright.

 

The point is, the Assassins are way better with Staves, Staves hurt grevious as much as those Water-bombs, and Grevious still got taken out by Gungans XD

 

(I don't like grevious >.>)

 

Sorry but if you think that is Greivous trying his hardest.......

 

Grievous with four lightsabers going all out would turn them into a nice dinner for the local flora and fauna.

 

Seriously, that was clearly him just LMAOing the entire battle.

 

Anyway that really is my last post for awhile, it is nearly 2AM, the others can pick up where I have left off, UB supporters dont forget my last large post, the DI just cannot strike the UB hard enough because the UB is from tip to toe absolutely all about endurance and can wage attrition with ease, that works totally counter to the DI's only real play.

Edited October 5, 2013 by LadyKulvax