Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle… and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."

―Kreia

 

"Only a handful of us remained after the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred in number. Then even that hundred began to disappear, in places where the Force seemed blind. The only pattern we determined [was] that when Jedi gathered, they were seen no more. At the last Jedi conclave on Katarr, the entire planet was wiped out. An entire race, destroyed… because the Jedi chose to gather there. It was only then that we realized that we were facing something far more powerful than we knew how to fight."

―Zez-Kai Ell

 

It is the other way around actually.

 

Firstly, the Assassins were trained before the Jedi Civil War ended.

 

Secondly, the "100 in number" was the Jedi willing to fight, the Jedi they knew of. Many Jedi left the order and went into hiding, and were killed anyway.

 

Either way, we know they were effective in what they did, and left no survivors (otherwise the council would know of the threat they faced)

[LadyKulvax]

Q: How is Traya even gonna die? Malgus likely can't take her anyway due to Force Drain, and she knows not to bring sith into Malachor 5 thanks to the last battle with Vader.

I think due to Malgus' extreme ability to call upon the Dark Side to sustain him through almost anything, which was amped greatly by his Oneness with the Dark Side combined with the amping power of Malachor V, gives him more than enough time to steam-roll her which he would do if they fought in a lightsaber battle and I think even if she went for Force Drain she would leave herself vulnerable in order to sustain it which gives Malgus all the time in the world to come down on her like a tank.

 

Malgus is very powerful in the Force and if he managed to get his hands on this old frail woman, he would crush her with his bare hands, something he has literally done before.

 

Malgus is a powerhouse, so powerful in-fact that I doubt heavily that Force Drain would kill him anywhere near as quickly as she would need it to.

Edited October 4, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

(otherwise the council would know of the threat they faced)

 

that's the difference the UB DO know the threat they faced so the assassins will be facing much heavier resistance and because of this they will dwindle and they will die.

 

 

Edit: see I knew we had a debate here to be found but no one was fighting it. every one was like Meh nothing needs be said but look at all this.

Edited October 4, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Firstly, the Assassins were trained before the Jedi Civil War ended.

 

Secondly, the "100 in number" was the Jedi willing to fight, the Jedi they knew of. Many Jedi left the order and went into hiding, and were killed anyway.

 

Either way, we know they were effective in what they did, and left no survivors (otherwise the council would know of the threat they faced)

 

They managed to wipe out the remains of one of the weakest Jedi Orders in all of galactic history a big difference from the Sith Warriors of the true Sith Empire, fighting Sith is not the same as fighting Jedi as so many people seem to believe.

 

Also it should be noted that many of the most powerful Jedi that remained after the JCW were killed by Darth Nihilus at Katarr.

Edited October 4, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

They managed to wipe out the remains of one of the weakest Jedi Orders in all of galactic history a big difference from the Sith Warriors of the true Sith Empire, fighting Sith is not the same as fighting Jedi as so many people seem to believe.

 

Also it should be noted that many of the most powerful Jedi that remained after the JCW were killed by Darth Nihilus at Katarr.

 

Pretty sure that's speculation, we only know Vandarr died there...

 

Oh, and the Remains were the strongest, those who survived against the Sith...

Edited October 4, 2013 by Selenial

[Selenial]

I think due to Malgus' extreme ability to call upon the Dark Side to sustain him through almost anything, which was amped greatly by his Oneness with the Dark Side combined with the amping power of Malachor V, gives him more than enough time to steam-roll her which he would do if they fought in a lightsaber battle and I think even if she went for Force Drain she would leave herself vulnerable in order to sustain it which gives Malgus all the time in the world to come down on her like a tank.

 

Malgus is very powerful in the Force and if he managed to get his hands on this old frail woman, he would crush her with his bare hands, something he has literally done before.

 

Malgus is a powerhouse, so powerful in-fact that I doubt heavily that Force Drain would kill him anywhere near as quickly as she would need it to.

 

You're joking right?

 

Force Drain takes Seconds, and NO ONE has ever been shown to just walk through it.

 

Natheema, a WEAK force draining aura was described as being a pain beyond anything the Exile had felt, that no amount of Endurance and Stamina could keep her alive forever.

 

Besides, if Maul or Ventress was with Traya...

[Beniboybling]

Those 10,000 Shadowtroopers are stationed somewhere, they will eventually require deployment when the DI itself can't escape due to the Sith Interdictors using their powerful Gravity Well Projectors to trap anything that moves.

 

Seriously, the moment the UB can turn this into a conventional battle they have won and that is only a matter of time, as more and more ships survive the traps and turn said traps into full on conventional warfare, at which point the interdictors themselves will move further in using gravity well projectors close to the planet to stop any escape, as more and more Sith Interdictors drop in from behind reinforcing the UB's position.

 

As soon as that happens any DI forces at the planet are going to get destroyed, they can't escape and they cannot win conventionally, momentarily they can hold out, but as soon as Malgus' other fleets drop in, it's going to be a UB victory and the DI take casualties they cannot afford.

They will be deployed, but likely not in defensive positions, with the extensive stealth network at Traya's disposal they will be attacking the UBs worlds. Avoiding a conventional battle will be top priority for the Imperium.

[Selenial]

1. Maul will not see it that way and nor will Ventress

2. Fair enough

3. same **** as 2 kind of redundant

4. Meaningless if they have nothing to offer and person KNOWS they are on the other side manipulation only works so well.

5. Why? wouldn't she fear the same with the Assassins or Maul being right beside her.

6. again fair enough but I could swear this had more to do with her feeling unsafe in the Clone Wars era because regardless of which side won she was going to be in danger as she wasn't the number 2 this is not the case with Malgus, if Malgus wins she has a stable spot in the ruling of the galaxy which she clearly wanted at the beginning and only wanted no order to win when she realized that she wasn't going to have that ruling position ever.

 

 

As for the assassins bit.... they don't need to stop the assassins the assassins need to stop them. If the Sith Warriors are not distracted by fighting another enemy then they will be well protected against the assassins by shear numbers of them as well as their own skills. Because of this the assassins aren't going to be able to pick the Sith warriors off 1 by 1 since they will not be that spread out. Also because of this it means for every couple of Sith warriors they manage to kill you will lose assassins. If Malgus and company manage to track them down then they lose even more either way the assassins will be dwindled to nothing while the Warriors will still be standing strong. You will run out of assassins before you kill enough Warriors.

 

1) Lol, Traya made it abundantly clear to Nihilus and Sion. Each got equal portions of fleets and Different spheres of control...

 

2 and 3 are important, don't dismiss them so easily.

 

4) Lolz. I'm not even gonna....

5) No, the Assassins are not Sith, they are mindless and only kill under Traya's command. Maul gains nothing by killing her, and he risks his life.

6) >.>

 

Umm, Beni, do they know of the Assassins? Even if so, you can't exactly have the Sith walking round huddled together for the rest of their lives....

[LadyKulvax]

Pretty sure that's speculation, we only know Vandarr died there...

 

Oh, and the Remains were the strongest, those who survived against the Sith...

 

No it isn't.

 

"The Order's most powerful Jedi Masters gathered at Katarr answering Master Atris' summons to combine their power so they could see the enemy that hid in the shadows, but all they achieved was bringing the Lord of Hunger to feast, the Jedi Order on that day lost it's most venerable members including the great masters Vandarr, Dorak and Zhar and most of it's remaining roster."

[Selenial]

No it isn't.

 

"The Order's most powerful Jedi Masters gathered at Katarr answering Master Atris' summons to combine their power so they could see the enemy that hid in the shadows, but all they achieved was bringing the Lord of Hunger to feast, the Jedi Order on that day lost it's most venerable members including the great masters Vandarr, Dorak and Zhar and most of it's remaining roster."

 

Apologies then....

 

Damn I hate Atris >.>

[Beniboybling]

You have missed my point.

 

This is not about killing Traya this is about crippling the Dark Imperium's military power and whilst Traya is certainly skilled at foresight I think you are embellishing her capability with this power, with Malachor she will be able to see much certainly, but she herself states that not everything seen is what actually happens and whilst the DI can certainly be forewarned, your plan is already all about setting the most effective traps and ambushes that the Dark Imperium can possibly create.

 

So I am not exactly sure what your point is, your plan has already prepared them for overwhelming attacks, what more can the DI's fleet possibly do to prepare? seeing the battle be lost isn't exactly going to help, what is she going to do? have them pull out and just sit everything at Malachor V? or will she evacuate to planets outside her sphere of influence to escape the interdiction fields which would inevitably trap her forces? if she does that her ability in foresight diminishes considerably and her visions will be far less clear and/or accurate as they would be with the Trayus Core, if she leaves she would be abandoning her planets and more importantly Malachor V to Malgus.

 

Now if Malachor V is indeed abandoned Malgus would have much use for it, he himself has had visions, numerous visions and with the Trayus Core to help him, he would (to a lesser degree than Traya could) be able to see where Traya goes and hides, it then turns into a game of cat and mouse that the UB can play all day long.

 

If however the DI opts to stay on Malachor V and dig in for the long haul, the war is over before it begins.

Because not only will Malgus' fleet surround Malachor V it will just be patient and keep prodding and poking at the DI until the traps are sprung, the UB inevitably takes the more than replaceable losses.

 

Eventually Malgus and the three other excellent tacticians will realise what is going on and send fleets from all sides to invariably overwhelm the fleet stationed at the dead world, whilst Malachor V itself will cause damage, all of the UB's ships can use their interdiction fields to stop any attempted escape and well it's only a matter of time for the overwhelming numbers to take down the Trayus Academy and Malachor V is going to be an excellent environment for the DB to use as a source of great power for the Sith Warriors and those leading them.

 

The Sith Assassins will take their toll but they are not defeatin an entire host of 11,000 Sith bashing down every door and using the power of Malachor V to just blitz the academy, the Massassi are excellent shock troops and are extremely effective when led by proper Sith Lords, which they will be.

 

The UB also has the advantage of numerous excellent tacticians to out-think the DI with.

 

To bring the grand scheme of things into this:

 

Simply put, it is either a war of attrition which the UB will win or a complete evacuation of the planets the DI controls if Traya sees the battles she'll lose, which gives Malgus the best advantage he could ask for: foresight, due to the Trayus Core amping his visions, which turns the game of cat and mouse into a simple waiting game, Traya is going to get caught, get trapped and die.

Just to get a grasp on the intentions of both combatants, Traya is not going to play a waiting game. Her goal is to isolate and eliminate Malgus. Everything else is peripheral to that vision.

[Selenial]

Just to get a grasp on the intentions of both combatants, Traya is not going to play a waiting game. Her goal is to isolate and eliminate Malgus. Everything else is peripheral to that vision.

 

She pretty much could if she wanted to, she could sit all her forces on a fleet in deep space and still be able to win, but it's a last resort only.

[LadyKulvax]

You're joking right?

 

Force Drain takes Seconds, and NO ONE has ever been shown to just walk through it.

 

Natheema, a WEAK force draining aura was described as being a pain beyond anything the Exile had felt, that no amount of Endurance and Stamina could keep her alive forever.

 

Besides, if Maul or Ventress was with Traya...

 

This is simply not true there have been occasions where Force Drain was attempted but because the opponent was more powerful it ranged from being ineffective to the applicant being forced to stay vulnerable over a period of time to slowly drain his or her opponent.

 

The Dark Healing/Force Drain power you are specifically pointing out also suffers from being rooted in the Sever Force technique which itself has been stated to depend entirely on the strength of the attacker and the victim, if the victim is more powerful then the effects are considerably lesser than they would be if it was the other way around.

 

Not only does the KotOR CG state this but Darth Sidious does as well.

 

Also Nathema has no such aura because it has literally no force energy left whatsoever so much so that the planet lacks colour or sound, it is completely dead to the Force and that is what was killing Meetra Surik, not some force drain auram there was literally no Force left on or around the planet, it was completely gone, the Exile herself states when she reaches Dromund Kaas that the Dark Side was infinitely more comforting than the total lack of any Force energy such as at Nathema was.

[Beniboybling]

This is simply not true there have been occasions where Force Drain was attempted but because the opponent was more powerful it ranged from being ineffective to the applicant being forced to stay vulnerable over a period of time to slowly drain his or her opponent.

 

The Dark Healing/Force Drain power you are specifically pointing out also suffers from being rooted in the Sever Force technique which itself has been stated to depend entirely on the strength of the attacker and the victim, if the victim is more powerful then the effects are considerably lesser than they would be if it was the other way around.

 

Not only does the KotOR CG state this but Darth Sidious does as well.

 

Also Nathema has no such aura because it has literally no force energy left whatsoever so much so that the planet lacks colour or sound, it is completely dead to the Force and that is what was killing Meetra Surik, not some force drain auram there was literally no Force left on or around the planet, it was completely gone, the Exile herself states when she reaches Dromund Kaas that the Dark Side was infinitely more comforting than the total lack of any Force energy such as at Nathema was.

I think we have to take into account the fact that Maul would probably be doing the fighting, and Traya would strike at the opportune moment. Its important we remain realistic here, its highly unlikely Traya is going to opt for any kind of direct confrontation with Malgus.

[Selenial]

This is simply not true there have been occasions where Force Drain was attempted but because the opponent was more powerful it ranged from being ineffective to the applicant being forced to stay vulnerable over a period of time to slowly drain his or her opponent.

 

The Dark Healing/Force Drain power you are specifically pointing out also suffers from being rooted in the Sever Force technique which itself has been stated to depend entirely on the strength of the attacker and the victim, if the victim is more powerful then the effects are considerably lesser than they would be if it was the other way around.

 

Not only does the KotOR CG state this but Darth Sidious does as well.

 

Also Nathema has no such aura because it has literally no force energy left whatsoever so much so that the planet lacks colour or sound, it is completely dead to the Force and that is what was killing Meetra Surik, not some force drain auram there was literally no Force left on or around the planet, it was completely gone, the Exile herself states when she reaches Dromund Kaas that the Dark Side was infinitely more comforting than the total lack of any Force energy such as at Nathema was.

 

Natheema attempts to rip the force out of living things in an attempt to fill the vacuum. Effectively a force draining TYPE aura.

 

Secondly, I'm pretty certain that the ability rooted in sever force Doesn't HAVE to have the same weaknesses as the actual ability.

 

Collectively you'd think every Jedi on Katarr was a match for Nihilus who was just sorta starting out, but no. Or the three most powerful Jedi Masters alive were a match for Traya who had had the force ripped from her, but no.

 

Also, Nihilus when he took Traya down? Not powerful enough to do it alone. Yet he still cut her off from the force, so it seems your example isn't solidly consistent.

 

Oh, and thanks for bringing up Dark Healing...

 

Traya's healing = unmatched. Astounding abilities in healing. TBH, one way of turning Ventress could just be to kill her and revive her, to show her Traya's true power

[LadyKulvax]

I think we have to take into account the fact that Maul would probably be doing the fighting, and Traya would strike at the opportune moment. Its important we remain realistic here, its highly unlikely Traya is going to opt for any kind of direct confrontation with Malgus.

 

Excellent point, I suppose we should discuss what would happen in fights between the major characters of one side and the major characters of the other, not an all-out brawl but what would happen in any number of occasions.

[Selenial]

I think we have to take into account the fact that Maul would probably be doing the fighting, and Traya would strike at the opportune moment. Its important we remain realistic here, its highly unlikely Traya is going to opt for any kind of direct confrontation with Malgus.

 

Precisely.

[Aurbere]

Apologies then....

 

Damn I hate Atris >.>

 

Everybody hates Atris.

[Selenial]

Excellent point, I suppose we should discuss what would happen in fights between the major characters of one side and the major characters of the other, not an all-out brawl but what would happen in any number of occasions.

 

I still think it's easy for Traya to corrupt Ventress, so for that reason I'll leave her out of this...

 

Grevious and his Entourage vs Maul and his Entourage = This is a pretty easy one here, Maul is an outright better duelist than Grevious, and if he was fortunate enough to have assassins with him Grevious likely wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Mauls incredible abilities in engineering combined with the Trayus Academy's tools would allow him to have Sabers similar to Ventress, in the way that they could likely be put together and pulled apart at will. This will give great diversity against Grevious, and Maul is a better Jarkai practicioner than Ventress IMO, and she won.

 

Maul vs Malgus: Maul is the better Saber Duelist here, me thinks, but Malgus' force abilities etc would probably get him the win.

 

Traya vs Malgus: Depending on the circumstances, this one is way too tough to call in a small post like this.

 

Traya and Maul vs Malgus: Pretty easy one here, Maul is a match for him in Saber combat and Traya could likely just sit back and drain Malgus into oblivion.

 

[Aurbere]

Traya's healing = unmatched.

 

Not really. I can think of one...

[Selenial]

Not really. I can think of one...

 

Unmatched for a Sith

[Beniboybling]

Selenial looks like she needs a little help here, and I think its important we establish what Traya's goals are and focus the debate. So I'll requote a post I made a while back in regards to the Imperium:

 

Invisibility: this is the Imperium's greatest advantage. They can essentially disappear. With the exception of Malachor V their planets are almost a formality, and Malachor V itself has infamous natural defenses. Traya's assassins and herself are capable of cloaking themselves from all kinds of detection, including detection through the Force. Traya commands a fleet that too can disappear at will, has two of the most deadly assassins of their respective eras and an army of shadow warriors. So as you can imagine, the Imperium is going to capitalize on stealth. And with the Brotherhood's worlds being rather 'backward' they can bypass defenses easily and strike without impunity. On top of that, Malgus would never see them coming - which puts them in a position to seriously damage Malgus' infrastructure

 

Traps and Ambushes: effectively an extension of the above, the Imperium is in a good position to stage a variety of ambushes and traps and corner their enemies with impossible odds. Indeed by striking at their relatively undefended planets and conquering them they can lure the enemy into an environment of their choosing and then overwhelm them with impossible odds. The enemy will be incapable of orbitally bombarding their planets lest they which to totally destroy their infrastructure, and will be forced to land and likely walk straight into a trap.

 

Assassins: as I said previously, the Imperium has some of the best assassins in history at its disposal. Darth Maul makes for the perfect vanguard unit, with the Scimitar at his disposal he can slip past practically any conventional defense, heck he even flew it over the Jedi Temple itself. With his Dark Eye probe droids he can scout the surrounding area and he himself is capable of dealing catastrophic damage at the heart of enemy territory. Remembering that he once took down all nine Vigos of the Black Sun including their leader at the heart of their powerbase. He won't just soften planets up for the ensuing invasion, he'll devastate them.

 

Then we have HK-47, a Jedi Hunter, employed by Darth Revan during the Jedi Civil War to capture or kill likely countless Jedi. He is experienced and he is skilled and will be highly adept at taking down the Force-based majority of the Undying Brotherhood. On top of that he has a great deal of subtly and skill in infiltration. And then finally we have an entire army of Sith Assassins, designed specifically to take down Force users.

 

==================================================

 

All three of these advantages combined, and Darth Traya has an effective means of essentially taking control of every single one of the enemy's planets, and turning them into death traps when the enemy attempts to reclaim them. All with the intention of taking out Malgus, or at least several members of the Brotherhood's Leadership.

 

Of course, even if that fails, consider the damage they can do to the Brotherhood's infrastructure. Then can shutdown interplanetary communications, cut off supplies and reinforcements, demoralize the enemy, seize military assets, uncover important military intel, turn the enemies weapons against them and of course strand their forces.

This hasn't really be discussed, and I feel it should. Because Traya isn't going to allow Malgus to play on his terms. She's not just going to hole up on Malachor and attempt to disrupt Malgus' actions. She's going to be very active, and as always attempt to shape events to her liking. And as much as we could rail against it, the Kaggath is probably going to play out according to her terms. Of course its an entirely different matter whether that will be successful or not.

 

Anyway, to extrapolate on this. While Malgus is busy campaigning - a campaign Traya will attempt to make as protracted as possible - the above events are likely going to be taken place. Malgus will find his powerbase taken out from under him and will have to abandon his campaign and attempt to retake his worlds.

 

In that sense I don't see endgame happening in Imperium space, but amongst the Brotherhood's worlds. Traya will no doubt attempt to lure him into a trap, and then kill him. Or else be killed, but not on Malachor V.

 

I'll leave Selenial to expand further.

[Aurbere]

Unmatched for a Sith

 

Of course, of course.

[Selenial]

Selenial looks like she needs a little help here, and I think its important we establish what Traya's goals are and focus the debate. So I'll requote a post I made a while back in regards to the Imperium:

 

I'm building for a large post tomorrow

 

Just hitting back at their points for now, not bringing new stuff to the table till the mega post....

Edited October 4, 2013 by Selenial

[Selenial]

I'll leave Selenial to expand further.

 

Tbh, I don't think the Strategies need much more expanding

 

You did great buddeh