Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

No saberstaff was offered to him...

 

Now let's not get carried away. Traya isn't some Force God who can do anything, you give her lever and a fulcrum but she isn't going to move any planets I'm afraid. There are limitations to her abilities.

 

No, her usage of shatterpoint relies on the same mechanics of any others. She is certainly more capable of shatterpoint that others, though I would not say anymore capable of Mace Windu who couldn't use it to locate some people. After doing a little searching I can affirm it does not work that way.

 

It would seem it can only be used on individuals that one is aware of. Nor can one exactly use shatterpoints on 'events' as these are not tangible things. They can only see people as shatterpoints for events, not the other way around. So in order to realise Ventress a shatterpoint to ending the war or else a shatterpoint in Malgus' armor she would actually have to physically be in her presence.

 

Heh. I'd say she's better than Windu.

 

She say's she has used it on a Galactic Scale beni. And the words Shatterpoint have never been used to name it, it was just assumed by Wookieepedia (as far as i know) because of the way it was described.

You can't put the shatterpoint limitations on it when we don't even know that's what it is, we just know she sees cracks in the Galaxy, people or places that can be exploited to one's will...

 

Also, Maul had the option in the form of Savage. If he wanted the double saber he could have it.

He also could weld the Darksaber to the Red one, he had plenty of time on Mandalore and that's how his first one was made.

 

 

[Beniboybling]

Heh. I'd say she's better than Windu.

 

She say's she has used it on a Galactic Scale beni. And the words Shatterpoint have never been used to name it, it was just assumed by Wookieepedia (as far as i know) because of the way it was described.

You can't put the shatterpoint limitations on it when we don't even know that's what it is, we just know she sees cracks in the Galaxy, people or places that can be exploited to one's will...

 

Also, Maul had the option in the form of Savage. If he wanted the double saber he could have it.

He also could weld the Darksaber to the Red one, he had plenty of time on Mandalore and that's how his first one was made.

What she describes is the definition of shatterpoint, you cannot claim it doesn't have any limitations and make up your own rules. I for one cannot allow that, its been defined by shatterpoint and I think its best we role with that.

 

Anyway, the key word here is see she needs to see Ventress to see a fracture. You cannot perceive a fracture in a wall if you cannot see said wall. This is simply applying logic to Traya's description of her ability.

 

I'd also be interested to see where Traya says she can see fractures in the galaxy.

 

And I doubt Maul would have just gone "yank" and stole Savage's lightsaber. And no of course he could not weld his lightsaber to a darksaber, the hilt is a completely different shape. Not to mention how fugly that would look.

 

Anyway, you might want to be aware of Maul's reasoning behind the saberstaff:

 

"The single blade has limitations, Master, in both offense and defense. It made sense to me to be able to strike with both ends."

 

Maul chose the saberstaff, because after engaging in combat with a Jedi wielding a staff he realised the limitations of the single blade, and then created a saberstaff, which he used to defeat said Jedi. I see no reason why if Maul had the resources at his disposal he would not abandon the single blade and the limitations that came with it.

 

Noting that he would not and evidently did not have those resources on Mandalore.

[Selenial]

The debate about the saber staff is pointless. Either way he'll take Grevious down.

 

Oh, and it is possible for him to take apart Saber staffs at will if he has the tools to make it like so, And I think the Trayus academy would have them...

 

 

As for the Traya quote, this may take me a while. I remember the quote but not the time she says it, all I remember is something along the lines off "it is possible to see these fractures" yada yada yada....

[Beniboybling]

As for the Traya quote, this may take me a while. I remember the quote but not the time she says it, all I remember is something along the lines off "it is possible to see these fractures" yada yada yada....

Well I'm just interested to hear the quotes in general, as I rarely seem to come across them...

[Selenial]

Well I'm just interested to hear the quotes in general, as I rarely seem to come across them...

 

It takes multiple playthroughs, and of course, the right options... Even if you spark the conversation you might not hear the line.

 

Either way, it's listed as a source on The Wookiee, so I know I wasn't imagining it

[tunewalker]

So where are we at with this how is the DI going to kill Malgus and how is the UB going to kill Traya?

 

Sorry been silent so long I don't really remember what the arguments for either side were.

[Beniboybling]

OK, I don't think I have any other choice but to call this soon. So if anyone has any final points to make...

[Selenial]

OK, I don't think I have any other choice but to call this soon. So if anyone has any final points to make...

 

Give me time for a final post?

 

And Sorry the argument hasn't been so huge, it seems to just be us....

Not really any supporters or scenarios for Marcelo.

[Aurbere]

Give me time for a final post?

 

And Sorry the argument hasn't been so huge, it seems to just be us....

Not really any supporters or scenarios for Marcelo.

 

Things have been pretty quiet lately, hmm?

[Aurbere]

Two things that should be taken into account: the size of the Brotherhood's fleets, and the options the Imperium has.

 

I feel that the Imperium just can't win a military struggle. All they can do is buy time to allow their big advantages to come into play.

[LadyKulvax]

I don't think the chances of assassination on Malgus are anywhere near as close as the chances of Malgus' fleet simply and gradually gaining more and more ground, I think that Malgus is going to be too well protected not to mention I honestly don't see how any of them are powerful enough to take him one on one if they manage to get someone there.

 

However the chances of Malgus' fleet just wading through the enemies' is much higher, that stealth and interdiction tactic is only going to work for so long until the DI is drawn into an out-and-out battle, at which point the Sith navy can simply use it's own interdiction fields to stop anything from escaping and then that is basically that for the DI, because the UB just needs to wait for reinforcements and eventually those numbers turn into too much, Interdictor ships all built with Rakata technology, those are going to be tough ships, every single one of them.

 

Malgus' fleet has 1,000 ships, Traya's fleet at best has a quarter of that and those waves of fleets moving in, joining the battles gradually maintaining an assault and forcing the DI to fight conventional warfare is going to essentially remove any hope of the DI winning any more space battles, then it is down to the ground, which I simply do not believe the Dark Imperium has enough of an advantage in numbers to make up for the Dark Side host.

 

Malgus, Ventress, Grievous and Durge back by 1,000 Sith Warriors & 10,000 Massassi Warriors vs Traya, Maul, Hk-47 and 50,000 Shadow Troopers backed by Sith Assassins.

 

It would be a bloodbath but I think the 1,000 Sith Warriors make up for the numbers advantage quite heavily.

[tunewalker]

I don't think the chances of assassination on Malgus are anywhere near as close as the chances of Malgus' fleet simply and gradually gaining more and more ground, I think that Malgus is going to be too well protected not to mention I honestly don't see how any of them are powerful enough to take him one on one if they manage to get someone there.

 

However the chances of Malgus' fleet just wading through the enemies' is much higher, that stealth and interdiction tactic is only going to work for so long until the DI is drawn into an out-and-out battle, at which point the Sith navy can simply use it's own interdiction fields to stop anything from escaping and then that is basically that for the DI, because the UB just needs to wait for reinforcements and eventually those numbers turn into too much, Interdictor ships all built with Rakata technology, those are going to be tough ships, every single one of them.

 

Malgus' fleet has 1,000 ships, Traya's fleet at best has a quarter of that and those waves of fleets moving in, joining the battles gradually maintaining an assault and forcing the DI to fight conventional warfare is going to essentially remove any hope of the DI winning any more space battles, then it is down to the ground, which I simply do not believe the Dark Imperium has enough of an advantage in numbers to make up for the Dark Side host.

 

Malgus, Ventress, Grievous and Durge back by 1,000 Sith Warriors & 10,000 Massassi Warriors vs Traya, Maul, Hk-47 and 50,000 Shadow Troopers backed by Sith Assassins.

 

It would be a bloodbath but I think the 1,000 Sith Warriors make up for the numbers advantage quite heavily.

 

Selenial only has 10k Shadow troopers (minor ground forces are regulated to 10k maximum)

[LadyKulvax]

Selenial only has 10k Shadow troopers (minor ground forces are regulated to 10k maximum)

 

10,000? it just became a cake walk for the UB then, they dont have a numbers advantage and are now simply out-matched.

[Beniboybling]

10,000? it just became a cake walk for the UB then, they dont have a numbers advantage and are now simply out-matched.

That would only be the case if the Dark Imperium are planning on engaging in open warfare, they are not. Heck they don't really even need to bother defending most of their planets.

[LadyKulvax]

That would only be the case if the Dark Imperium are planning on engaging in open warfare, they are not. Heck they don't really even need to bother defending most of their planets.

 

Those 10,000 Shadowtroopers are stationed somewhere, they will eventually require deployment when the DI itself can't escape due to the Sith Interdictors using their powerful Gravity Well Projectors to trap anything that moves.

 

Seriously, the moment the UB can turn this into a conventional battle they have won and that is only a matter of time, as more and more ships survive the traps and turn said traps into full on conventional warfare, at which point the interdictors themselves will move further in using gravity well projectors close to the planet to stop any escape, as more and more Sith Interdictors drop in from behind reinforcing the UB's position.

 

As soon as that happens any DI forces at the planet are going to get destroyed, they can't escape and they cannot win conventionally, momentarily they can hold out, but as soon as Malgus' other fleets drop in, it's going to be a UB victory and the DI take casualties they cannot afford.

Edited October 4, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Those 10,000 Shadowtroopers are stationed somewhere, they will eventually require deployment when the DI itself can't escape due to the Sith Interdictors using their powerful Gravity Well Projectors to trap anything that moves.

 

Seriously, the moment the UB can turn this into a conventional battle they have won and that is only a matter of time, as more and more ships survive the traps and turn said traps into full on conventional warfare, at which point the interdictors themselves will move further in using gravity well projectors close to the planet to stop any escape, as more and more Sith Interdictors drop in from behind reinforcing the UB's position.

 

As soon as that happens any DI forces at the planet are going to get destroyed, they can't escape and they cannot win conventionally, momentarily they can hold out, but as soon as Malgus' other fleets drop in, it's going to be a UB victory and the DI take casualties they cannot afford.

 

 

You greatly underestimate Traya.

 

She's going to be one step ahead of Malgus. If she's on Malachor, she'll have the foresight to know if she will lose and will re-arrange. If she's not, it simply doesn't matter. He won't find her.

 

She could quite easily lose EVERY single Planet, and operate just from a Stealth vessel from Malgus' stealth armada, she could send her Assassins out in Scimitars, the sith will whittle down and all that. Exactly how the Sith Triumvirate operated before.

 

Oh, also. The Assassins are MORE than a match for the Sith Warriors, especially if Malgus is there. Because they'll feed of Malgus and it'll be a cakewalk for them.

 

Also, a huge massive army of force users is like taking Darth Barrass to an all you can eat Buffet. They'll have a field day.

 

Also, the Shadow Troopers > Massassi.

[tunewalker]

I am glad my one comment got this sturred up again. So right now I am actually kind of siding with Rayla I figured going into this that Sel would be able to come out on top but I don't know that the stealth is going to be able to hold out long enough and Malgus and the Sith are more then capable of getting her where ever she goes. In a fight between Malgus Greivous Ventress and Durge Vs Maul Traya and HK the winner is obvious in a straight up fight. The sith assassins are good but I don't think they are 10:1 odds good. More then likely they are 1.5:1 odds good against the Sith warriors that's not enough to come out against the numbers disparity (this is taking into account their ability to stealth and force drains vs the saber skills of the warriors.)

[Selenial]

I am glad my one comment got this sturred up again. So right now I am actually kind of siding with Rayla I figured going into this that Sel would be able to come out on top but I don't know that the stealth is going to be able to hold out long enough and Malgus and the Sith are more then capable of getting her where ever she goes. In a fight between Malgus Greivous Ventress and Durge Vs Maul Traya and HK the winner is obvious in a straight up fight. The sith assassins are good but I don't think they are 10:1 odds good. More then likely they are 1.5:1 odds good against the Sith warriors that's not enough to come out against the numbers disparity (this is taking into account their ability to stealth and force drains vs the saber skills of the warriors.)

 

The Jedi Order out-numbered the assassins hundredfold...

 

Look how that one turned out.

 

And Malgus Grevious and Ventress vs Traya and Maul ALONE is an easy victory for Traya and Maul. Because it will be on Traya's terms, she'll manipulate ventress into joining her, and we've already seen Ventress is more than a match for Grevious.

 

[tunewalker]

The Jedi Order out-numbered the assassins hundredfold...

 

Look how that one turned out.

 

And Malgus Grevious and Ventress vs Traya and Maul ALONE is an easy victory for Traya and Maul. Because it will be on Traya's terms, she'll manipulate ventress into joining her, and we've already seen Ventress is more than a match for Grevious.

 

 

I don't see Ventress switching sides she has no more reason to Join Traya then she does to stay with Malgus. If you want to use "traya will scare her" argument then it is a fairly weak one as Malgus can scare her just as easily and the 3 of them can easily take the 2. Further more in under Traya she would be third in line under Malgus she would be second the choice is obvious which to pick in this case for her.

 

 

The Jedi were also busy dealing with and fighting other things like criminals and remnants of Malak's and Revan's Sith armada and were largly unaware of the existence of the Sith Assassins. This is not the case with the Sith Warriors who are entirely focused on the Assassins.

[Selenial]

I don't see Ventress switching sides she has no more reason to Join Traya then she does to stay with Malgus. If you want to use "traya will scare her" argument then it is a fairly weak one as Malgus can scare her just as easily and the 3 of them can easily take the 2. Further more in under Traya she would be third in line under Malgus she would be second the choice is obvious which to pick in this case for her.

 

 

The Jedi were also busy dealing with and fighting other things like criminals and remnants of Malak's and Revan's Sith armada and were largly unaware of the existence of the Sith Assassins. This is not the case with the Sith Warriors who are entirely focused on the Assassins.

 

Triumvirate is Traya at the leader, Maul and Ventress EQUAL beneath her.

 

Ventress hated the Jedi and the Sith in her prime. Traya does too.

Traya is more Grey, Ventress will like that.

Traya is the greatest manipulator the galaxy has ever seen.

Ventress will fear death at the hands of one of the THOUSAND Sith beneath her.

 

Traya hates the Idea of one force order controlling the galaxy, she thinks a few people are better. Ventress will like that, and will certainly feel safer.

 

As for the Assassins, they can't stop them. Not for ever.

[LadyKulvax]

You greatly underestimate Traya.

 

You have missed my point.

 

This is not about killing Traya this is about crippling the Dark Imperium's military power and whilst Traya is certainly skilled at foresight I think you are embellishing her capability with this power, with Malachor she will be able to see much certainly, but she herself states that not everything seen is what actually happens and whilst the DI can certainly be forewarned, your plan is already all about setting the most effective traps and ambushes that the Dark Imperium can possibly create.

 

So I am not exactly sure what your point is, your plan has already prepared them for overwhelming attacks, what more can the DI's fleet possibly do to prepare? seeing the battle be lost isn't exactly going to help, what is she going to do? have them pull out and just sit everything at Malachor V? or will she evacuate to planets outside her sphere of influence to escape the interdiction fields which would inevitably trap her forces? if she does that her ability in foresight diminishes considerably and her visions will be far less clear and/or accurate as they would be with the Trayus Core, if she leaves she would be abandoning her planets and more importantly Malachor V to Malgus.

 

Now if Malachor V is indeed abandoned Malgus would have much use for it, he himself has had visions, numerous visions and with the Trayus Core to help him, he would (to a lesser degree than Traya could) be able to see where Traya goes and hides, it then turns into a game of cat and mouse that the UB can play all day long.

 

If however the DI opts to stay on Malachor V and dig in for the long haul, the war is over before it begins.

Because not only will Malgus' fleet surround Malachor V it will just be patient and keep prodding and poking at the DI until the traps are sprung, the UB inevitably takes the more than replaceable losses.

 

Eventually Malgus and the three other excellent tacticians will realise what is going on and send fleets from all sides to invariably overwhelm the fleet stationed at the dead world, whilst Malachor V itself will cause damage, all of the UB's ships can use their interdiction fields to stop any attempted escape and well it's only a matter of time for the overwhelming numbers to take down the Trayus Academy and Malachor V is going to be an excellent environment for the DB to use as a source of great power for the Sith Warriors and those leading them.

 

The Sith Assassins will take their toll but they are not defeatin an entire host of 11,000 Sith bashing down every door and using the power of Malachor V to just blitz the academy, the Massassi are excellent shock troops and are extremely effective when led by proper Sith Lords, which they will be.

 

The UB also has the advantage of numerous excellent tacticians to out-think the DI with.

 

To bring the grand scheme of things into this:

 

Simply put, it is either a war of attrition which the UB will win or a complete evacuation of the planets the DI controls if Traya sees the battles she'll lose, which gives Malgus the best advantage he could ask for: foresight, due to the Trayus Core amping his visions, which turns the game of cat and mouse into a simple waiting game, Traya is going to get caught, get trapped and die.

[LadyKulvax]

The Jedi Order out-numbered the assassins hundredfold...

 

"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle… and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."

―Kreia

 

"Only a handful of us remained after the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred in number. Then even that hundred began to disappear, in places where the Force seemed blind. The only pattern we determined [was] that when Jedi gathered, they were seen no more. At the last Jedi conclave on Katarr, the entire planet was wiped out. An entire race, destroyed… because the Jedi chose to gather there. It was only then that we realized that we were facing something far more powerful than we knew how to fight."

―Zez-Kai Ell

 

It is the other way around actually.

Edited October 4, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Q: How is Traya even gonna die? Malgus likely can't take her anyway due to Force Drain, and she knows not to bring sith into Malachor 5 thanks to the last battle with Vader.

[tunewalker]

Triumvirate is Traya at the leader, Maul and Ventress EQUAL beneath her.

 

Ventress hated the Jedi and the Sith in her prime. Traya does too.

Traya is more Grey, Ventress will like that.

Traya is the greatest manipulator the galaxy has ever seen.

Ventress will fear death at the hands of one of the THOUSAND Sith beneath her.

 

Traya hates the Idea of one force order controlling the galaxy, she thinks a few people are better. Ventress will like that, and will certainly feel safer.

 

As for the Assassins, they can't stop them. Not for ever.

 

1. Maul will not see it that way and nor will Ventress

2. Fair enough

3. same **** as 2 kind of redundant

4. Meaningless if they have nothing to offer and person KNOWS they are on the other side manipulation only works so well.

5. Why? wouldn't she fear the same with the Assassins or Maul being right beside her.

6. again fair enough but I could swear this had more to do with her feeling unsafe in the Clone Wars era because regardless of which side won she was going to be in danger as she wasn't the number 2 this is not the case with Malgus, if Malgus wins she has a stable spot in the ruling of the galaxy which she clearly wanted at the beginning and only wanted no order to win when she realized that she wasn't going to have that ruling position ever.

 

 

As for the assassins bit.... they don't need to stop the assassins the assassins need to stop them. If the Sith Warriors are not distracted by fighting another enemy then they will be well protected against the assassins by shear numbers of them as well as their own skills. Because of this the assassins aren't going to be able to pick the Sith warriors off 1 by 1 since they will not be that spread out. Also because of this it means for every couple of Sith warriors they manage to kill you will lose assassins. If Malgus and company manage to track them down then they lose even more either way the assassins will be dwindled to nothing while the Warriors will still be standing strong. You will run out of assassins before you kill enough Warriors.

[tunewalker]

Q: How is Traya even gonna die? Malgus likely can't take her anyway due to Force Drain, and she knows not to bring sith into Malachor 5 thanks to the last battle with Vader.

 

Malgus doesn't need great power in the force to be able to out duel her with Djem So he is a warrior first and foremost and she has not shown great agility while he has shown the ability to leap large areas very quickly even if she drains SOME of his power it wont be all of it he could very well close the distance and force her into saber combat that she cant win.

 

 

Edit: also Ventress Greivous and Durge.... don't forget Durge.

Edited October 4, 2013 by tunewalker