Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Beniboybling]

Malgus' danger sense and Malgus' visions could do the complete opposite though.

 

He even knew that the strike team was coming before they landed or revealed themselves.

I don't think their is sufficient or any evidence to suggest that Malgus had a vision of the strike team landing on his station, nor was Malgus at all vision prone or noted to possess any particular skills in foresight. Add that to the fact that Malgus won't even be leading the fleet and the chances he'll have a vision are very slim indeed.

[Beniboybling]

Wouldn't that seem odd, though?

Odd enough to take extreme action? Unlikely? Really what can Malgus do if his scouting party gives the all clear?

 

It could be attested to the natural gravity fluctuations of Malachor V... or a temporary communications jam. Which in fact it was, they could just claim the attackers had been destroyed and the path was clear...

 

EDIT: That said even with that trap sprung, one cannot be assured that Malgus' fleet will be routed.

[LadyKulvax]

He says he 'knew we were coming' long before he made his speech on the holonet in the republic version if you act like a snob to him and he had a prophetic vision of Coruscant burning long before he followed Vindican to Korriban.

 

Whilst I am not saying he is going to see everything coming, i think he will have a much better chance of figuring out Traya/Trench's trap.

 

However in the long run it wont matter, he has a fleet with the ability of Interdiction built in, he is going to figure it out sooner rather than later and then the DI is going to be in trouble.

[Beniboybling]

He says he 'knew we were coming' long before he made his speech on the holonet in the republic version if you act like a snob to him and he had a prophetic vision of Coruscant burning long before he followed Vindican to Korriban.

 

Whilst I am not saying he is going to see everything coming, i think he will have a much better chance of figuring out Traya/Trench's trap.

 

However in the long run it wont matter, he has a fleet with the ability of Interdiction built in, he is going to figure it out sooner rather than later and then the DI is going to be in trouble.

Perhaps, perhaps not. One prophetic and rather vague vision on a planet steeped in the dark side and a possible reference to precognition years later is not exactly solid evidence.

 

However what we should consider is that if Malgus is deceived into heading into battle personally he'll be in danger of dying. At that point the trap will be clear but it will also be sprung.

[Aurbere]

Odd enough to take extreme action? Unlikely? Really what can Malgus do if his scouting party gives the all clear?

 

It could be attested to the natural gravity fluctuations of Malachor V... or a temporary communications jam. Which in fact it was, they could just claim the attackers had been destroyed and the path was clear...

 

EDIT: That said even with that trap sprung, one cannot be assured that Malgus' fleet will be routed.

 

I think he would be concerned that his scouting party was cut off and that they manage to defeat their attackers. Though I guess it depends on how large of a party this is. We talking a fleet here, or just some scout fighters?

[LadyKulvax]

Perhaps, perhaps not. One prophetic and rather vague vision on a planet steeped in the dark side and a possible reference to precognition years later is not exactly solid evidence.

 

However what we should consider is that if Malgus is deceived into heading into battle personally he'll be in danger of dying. At that point the trap will be clear but it will also be sprung.

 

Here is what I see happening, one fleet of maybe 30 ships go in first to prod and check, that fleet is pulled out of hyperspace and either totally destroyed or they manage to report they are under attack.

 

Malgus is going to figure out what happened and send Grievous and Durge are sent through different routes, meanwhile he keeps sending larger and larger fleets, the attrition rate the UB can take, the DI just cannot afford casualties.

 

Eventually those other fleets are going to turn up, the DI gets spread too thin and no matter how much damage the Interdiction fields do, they are eventually going to find themselves in open battle, once that happens, the ships capable of Interdicting will likely be the main targets, this is a battle the UB can draw out, this is not a battle the DI can last with ever mounting casualties however.

[Beniboybling]

I think he would be concerned that his scouting party was cut off and that they manage to defeat their attackers. Though I guess it depends on how large of a party this is. We talking a fleet here, or just some scout fighters?

In what way? His fleet was attacked by successfully defeated the enemy and cleared a path to Malachor V - seems like a cause for minor celebration if anything.

[Aurbere]

In what way? His fleet was attacked by successfully defeated the enemy and cleared a path to Malachor V - seems like a cause for minor celebration if anything.

 

So it is a fleet? OK. Well, if his fleet was attacked and 'won,' then I think Malgus would probably send reinforcements. Unless the DI tells him that there were no casualties, of course.

[Beniboybling]

Here is what I see happening, one fleet of maybe 30 ships go in first to prod and check, that fleet is pulled out of hyperspace and either totally destroyed or they manage to report they are under attack.

 

Malgus is going to figure out what happened and send Grievous and Durge are sent through different routes, meanwhile he keeps sending larger and larger fleets, the attrition rate the UB can take, the DI just cannot afford casualties.

 

Eventually those other fleets are going to turn up, the DI gets spread too thin and no matter how much damage the Interdiction fields do, they are eventually going to find themselves in open battle, once that happens, the ships capable of Interdicting will likely be the main targets, this is a battle the UB can draw out, this is not a battle the DI can last with ever mounting casualties however.

Well, that series of event is not in the best interests of the Dark Imperium who are in control of the situation, and are therefore going to attempt to tailor the outcome to said interests.

 

Wiping out a scouting party is not in their best interests, because it leads to this very series of events. I'd assume that Admiral Trench's astute tactical ability will prepare him for the possibility if not likelihood of a scouting party. As such he'll most certainly want to prevent Malgus from becoming aware of the trap, and as such is more than likely to attempt to capture one the the enemies ships so they can feed them false information.

 

In that scenario Malgus won't figure out what happened, he'll be given an all clear and lead a larger fleet into battle on the cleared hyperspace route to Malachor V, then he'll fall into the trap. What happens next is debatable.

 

I simply do not see the Imperium being so foolish as to destroy a scouting party, which will alert the enemy to the presence of an interdiction fleet. That would be blatantly obvious to anyone with any level of naval warfare.

[Beniboybling]

So it is a fleet? OK. Well, if his fleet was attacked and 'won,' then I think Malgus would probably send reinforcements. Unless the DI tells him that there were no casualties, of course.

Well the casualties would likely be reported to be minor, and given that the battle is over their would be no point sending reinforcements that didn't have Malgus at the helm.

 

That said, the scouting party might be led by Grievous. But would Malgus risk that?

[Aurbere]

Well the casualties would likely be reported to be minor, and given that the battle is over their would be no point sending reinforcements that didn't have Malgus at the helm.

 

That said, the scouting party might be led by Grievous. But would Malgus risk that?

 

Well, if they were headed for the enemy capitol, then I think he would send an able tactician.

[Beniboybling]

Well, if they were headed for the enemy capitol, then I think he would send an able tactician.

Hmmm, but if the purpose of the scouting party is to spring any traps, then he'd be putting Grievous in danger.

 

That said Grievous is a master escapist, and Malgus probably doesn't really care. He's not one to shy away from a little bloodshed and probably thinks that if Grievous is killed in a trap then he's not worthy of being his second-in-command.

 

In that sense we should probably start considering the outcome of Grievous vs Maul & HK-47.

[Selenial]

In that sense we should probably start considering the outcome of Grievous vs Maul & HK-47.

 

/Rofl

 

Back to serious discussions...

 

Traya can mess with people's minds from lightyears away, already shown, and she wasn't even on Malachor... I think she'd get Ventress to meet with her on Malachor... What do you guys think? Manipulating Ventress has already bene proved to be quite easy. Even Ahsoka could do it...

 

As for the Naval battle, Rayla already posted in the Aurbere vs Tunewalker match, about how ripping a fleet out of hyperspace rams the ships into each other at incredible speed.... No reason it wouldn't flatten most of the fleet.

[Beniboybling]

/Rofl

 

Back to serious discussions...

I'm guessing your not taking into account the context i.e. the fact that General Grievous will be protected by several Sith Warriors and is a master escapist. These points cannot be simply dismissed.

[Selenial]

I'm guessing your not taking into account the context i.e. the fact that General Grievous will be protected by several Sith Warriors and is a master escapist. These points cannot be simply dismissed.

 

Once more I say... Back to serious discussion.

 

Lol but seriously, Maul would have assassins, and I reckon Maul alone could take Grevious and about 4 Sith Warriors comfortably.

 

Edit: What about the last part of it?

[Beniboybling]

Once more I say... Back to serious discussion.

 

Lol but seriously, Maul would have assassins, and I reckon Maul alone could take Grevious and about 4 Sith Warriors comfortably.

 

Edit: What about the last part of it?

This is the serious discussion, the topic of Traya communicating with somebody she has never met and does not have the location of is not, few individuals are capable of taking care of Grievous comfortably, whom has only been bested by those inherently geared towards countering his unorthodox style. Maul has no such advantages, and will be caught completely off guard. Grievous will be able to perform his style to near maximum effect, which makes him dangerous.

 

Now I have no doubt that alone Maul would be capable of overcoming Grievous, but when flanked by several Sith Warriors? Not even his saberstaff would save him. Under that much pressure he would falter and Grievous would exploit such a weaknesses. Now assassins could even the odds, but Grievous would quickly dispatch them.

[Selenial]

This is the serious discussion, the topic of Traya communicating with somebody she has never met and does not have the location of is not, few individuals are capable of taking care of Grievous comfortably, whom has only been bested by those inherently geared towards countering his unorthodox style. Maul has no such advantages, and will be caught completely off guard. Grievous will be able to perform his style to near maximum effect, which makes him dangerous.

 

Now I have no doubt that alone Maul would be capable of overcoming Grievous, but when flanked by several Sith Warriors? Not even his saberstaff would save him. Under that much pressure he would falter and Grievous would exploit such a weaknesses. Now assassins could even the odds, but Grievous would quickly dispatch them.

 

Maul = Jarkai. Crimson blade and Darksaber.

 

Ventress took him alone, and she was quoted as never having mastered Jar'kai. Maul was quoted as being a master of Jar'Kai, by Plagueis himself. She took Grevious down with absolutely no problem. Maul would not be any less well off.

 

As for Traya and Ventress, Traya didn't know Atriss intricately, and she did it outside of Malachor. On malachor I'd say she could do it to someone she hadn't met. If not she could just go herself, not like she's needed at Malachor for a while.

 

[Aurbere]

Maul = Jarkai. Crimson blade and Darksaber.

 

Ventress took him alone, and she was quoted as never having mastered Jar'kai. Maul was quoted as being a master of Jar'Kai, by Plagueis himself. She took Grevious down with absolutely no problem. Maul would not be any less well off.

 

As for Traya and Ventress, Traya didn't know Atriss intricately, and she did it outside of Malachor. On malachor I'd say she could do it to someone she hadn't met. If not she could just go herself, not like she's needed at Malachor for a while.

 

 

Ventress overcame all of the weaknesses of Jar'Kai. How is that not mastering it?

[Beniboybling]

Maul = Jarkai. Crimson blade and Darksaber.

 

Ventress took him alone, and she was quoted as never having mastered Jar'kai. Maul was quoted as being a master of Jar'Kai, by Plagueis himself. She took Grevious down with absolutely no problem. Maul would not be any less well off.

 

As for Traya and Ventress, Traya didn't know Atriss intricately, and she did it outside of Malachor. On malachor I'd say she could do it to someone she hadn't met. If not she could just go herself, not like she's needed at Malachor for a while.

 

Maul can't split his blades in half at will, he'll likely rebuild his saberstaff which did not have that function, its a small point but it does reduce the kinetic force of his attacks which was the primary reason Grievous was 'defeated'.

 

I say 'defeated' because the duel was cut short. Ventress managed to cut off one of Grievous' arms. He still had three more, if Ventress had not been interrupted Grievous would have blocked with his other three remaining lightsabers and the duel would have continued. Now you might want to compare

(specifically 0:50 onwards) with some of Grievous' other duels such as these:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VHkNU8whzc&t=1m23s

 

Notice a difference? Grievous style is far more refined compared to the voluntary slugging match Grievous chooses to engage Ventress in, throwing his blades at her with no real care for technique. She simply overpowered him. The reason for this is likely overconfidence, I believe its still canon that Grievous wiped the floor with Ventress several years ago and clearly sees himself as superior, so he didn't try very hard.

 

After getting back up, Grievous wouldn't make that same mistake. And we would begin to see the style that caught Jedi Masters such as Kenobi, Eeth Koth etc. off guard. The duel would have likely progressed much longer and Ventress would probably have been forced on the back foot a few times. I think Ventress would have eventually prevailed but probably only with the aid of Force-based attacks and not without suffering injury.

 

At least in the case of Maul we can say he'd not have the advantage of kinetic force, and I doubt Grievous would underestimate him, which would lead to a protracted engagement. An engagement in which Maul won't be flanked by Magnaguards, but Sith Warriors - can Maul really hold out against a possible 5 duelists?

 

He certainly won't be going on the offensive, which is exactly what Grievous would want.

 

And Traya did know Atris, remember both of them were Historians and Atris was one of the Jedi who likely had Kreia exiled, and Atris herself certainly talks about Kreia like she knows her. Regardless what is important that Traya knew where Atris was, which allowed her to locate her through the Force. As powerful as Traya is, she does not have Cerebro tucked up in the Trayus Academy. She cannot probe the entire galaxy for Ventress.

 

As for go herself? Go where? To Ventress' conveniently sign-posted location?

[Beniboybling]

Ventress overcame all of the weaknesses of Jar'Kai. How is that not mastering it?

Yeeaaah.

[Selenial]

At least in the case of Maul we can say he'd not have the advantage of kinetic force, and I doubt Grievous would underestimate him, which would lead to a protracted engagement. An engagement in which Maul won't be flanked by Magnaguards, but Sith Warriors - can Maul really hold out against a possible 5 duelists?

 

First, No saber staff. Maul had the option of it in TCW, but chose not to.

 

Second, yes. I think maul can hold off against 5 people. If you watch Grevious closesly it always goes down like this:

 

Grevious goes in for a little confrontation.

Grevious realises he's going to lose.

Grevious Steps back and rofl's as the Magnaguards move in.

Grevious lets them attack for a bit.

Grevious moves in if he has to, but by this point, The magnaguards could be taken care of. Or at least, a couple of them..

 

EG: Grevious vs Koth, they have a short engagement, Koth gets the upperhand, and Immediately grevious orders in the Magnaguards. Koth however let them surround him, so meh.

 

Besides, if Grevious has the Sith, Maul would have the assassins... Who, according to you... Create a force draining Aura-type-thingy... Rather like that of Natheema, which made even Meetra Surik feel sick.

 

It won't be as strong, but it will weaken the Sith.

 

As for go herself? Go where? To Ventress' conveniently sign-posted location?

 

Doesn't Traya describe a Force Sensitive as a Mynock beating it's wings in the Sand? Creating ripples, easy to detect?

 

Besides, Shatterpoint in Planets and all that... And Dem foresight...

[Selenial]

(specifically 0:50 onwards) with some of Grievous' other duels such as these:

 

Grevious wasn't going easy on her. Ventress flings her sabers at him in the same style as he goes at her, it's obviously just the style the show was depicted in.

 

He starts with the Exact same opening rotation as he did with his MOVIE fight with Kenobi. Let alone all the other fights he was in.

[Beniboybling]

First, No saber staff. Maul had the option of it in TCW, but chose not to.

Second, yes. I think maul can hold off against 5 people. If you watch Grevious closesly it always goes down like this:

 

Grevious goes in for a little confrontation.

Grevious realises he's going to lose.

Grevious Steps back and rofl's as the Magnaguards move in.

Grevious lets them attack for a bit.

Grevious moves in if he has to, but by this point, The magnaguards could be taken care of. Or at least, a couple of them..

 

EG: Grevious vs Koth, they have a short engagement, Koth gets the upperhand, and Immediately grevious orders in the Magnaguards. Koth however let them surround him, so meh.

 

Besides, if Grevious has the Sith, Maul would have the assassins... Who, according to you... Create a force draining Aura-type-thingy... Rather like that of Natheema, which made even Meetra Surik feel sick.

 

It won't be as strong, but it will weaken the Sith.

Maul didn't have the option to create a saberstaff, he was given his old blade but only one half remained. He didn't have the materials to rebuild it - I'd assume he would in the Trayus Academy. And it would certainly be in his best interests and Maul's primary skill is with the saberstaff. He certainly won't be able to hold out against 5 attackers with a single blade... And as for Grievous tactic, it works, and with Sith it should be even more effective.

 

As for assassins, it won't have an effect on Grievous for obvious reasons. But it would help Maul keep the Sith Warriors at bay while he tackles Grievous alone. However Grievous could well escape.

 

And as for the Mynock analogy, extrapolate on that an imagine a cave filled with hundreds of Mynocks flying all over the place. Ventress is one of those Mynocks, like finding a needle in a haystack. And unless she's planning on studying tectonic shifts, using Shatterpoint on a planet won't be very useful.

 

A far more plausible likelihood is that Traya will dispatch some assassins to find her. Or have her captured on the open battlefield. However in reality I'm not sure if shatterpoint works on things you don't know exist...

[Selenial]

Maul didn't have the option to create a saberstaff, he was given his old blade but only one half remained. He didn't have the materials to rebuild it - I'd assume he would in the Trayus Academy. And it would certainly be in his best interests and Maul's primary skill is with the saberstaff. He certainly won't be able to hold out against 5 attackers with a single blade... And as for Grievous tactic, it works, and with Sith it should be even more effective.

 

As for assassins, it won't have an effect on Grievous for obvious reasons. But it would help Maul keep the Sith Warriors at bay while he tackles Grievous alone. However Grievous could well escape.

 

And as for the Mynock analogy, extrapolate on that an imagine a cave filled with hundreds of Mynocks flying all over the place. Ventress is one of those Mynocks, like finding a needle in a haystack. And unless she's planning on studying tectonic shifts, using Shatterpoint on a planet won't be very useful.

 

A far more plausible likelihood is that Traya will dispatch some assassins to find her. Or have her captured on the open battlefield. However in reality I'm not sure if shatterpoint works on things you don't know exist...

 

He had the offer of a Saber staff... And if he didn't have that, he'd have an extra blade.

 

And please tell me you did not just say that about Shatterpoint.

 

Shatterpoint is just a name for Traya, she shows a unique usage. She can see Shatterpoints in the Galaxy, Planet, and Organisations in the form of weak links and PEOPLE to exploit. I see no reason she couldn't find Ventress with it.

 

Also, she didn't know of a lot of people she used it on, or she wouldn't need it in the first place

[Beniboybling]

He had the offer of a Saber staff... And if he didn't have that, he'd have an extra blade.

 

And please tell me you did not just say that about Shatterpoint.

 

Shatterpoint is just a name for Traya, she shows a unique usage. She can see Shatterpoints in the Galaxy, Planet, and Organisations in the form of weak links and PEOPLE to exploit. I see no reason she couldn't find Ventress with it.

 

Also, she didn't know of a lot of people she used it on, or she wouldn't need it in the first place

No saberstaff was offered to him...

 

Now let's not get carried away. Traya isn't some Force God who can do anything, you give her lever and a fulcrum but she isn't going to move any planets I'm afraid. There are limitations to her abilities.

 

No, her usage of shatterpoint relies on the same mechanics of any others. She is certainly more capable of shatterpoint that others, though I would not say anymore capable of Mace Windu who couldn't use it to locate some people. After doing a little searching I can affirm it does not work that way.

 

It would seem it can only be used on individuals that one is aware of. Nor can one exactly use shatterpoints on 'events' as these are not tangible things. They can only see people as shatterpoints for events, not the other way around. So in order to realise Ventress a shatterpoint to ending the war or else a shatterpoint in Malgus' armor she would actually have to physically be in her presence.