Oh hey everyone, I tried to tell you. Class reps on hold, no more questions answered

[Megatfx]

Statement retracted, I misunderstood the questions submission procedures, but here is the developer quote on the class rep situation:

 

As many of you are no doubt aware, we implemented the Class Representatives system a few weeks ago. The goal if this system was simple: introduce a dialog around each class based on what the community feels their top 3 issues are at the time.

 

So far the reps have been doing a great job and you all have been providing invaluable feedback to the team. However, today I come with some good and bad news. First, the bad!

 

Once we have returned the Shadow and Mercenary top 3 which were submitted last week, we will be putting it on hold. I know the first question that comes to mind is, why? This is pretty simple actually. All 8 set of class mirrors have submitted a top 3 to us once after this most recent round.

 

With that being said, we have not yet made any actual class changes since the initiative began (barring the BH/Trooper changes). Because of this, the second set of top 3 will not really be as impactful since it will likely be a revisit of the same 3 issues that were presented before. Because of that, I am going to put the Class Reps on hold until we start making some class changes again.

 

This leads us to the good news, right? I know the next question you will ask, based on what I just typed is "when are we getting class changes then?" I have that answer too! You will begin to see class changes in Game Update 2.5. After 2.5 hits, we will reintroduce the Class Reps and allow those reps to once again begin a dialog with the developers on what issues still remain with their classes.

 

I will also rework the schedule to insure that only classes who received changes at that point are in the front of the schedule. I want to be clear that it is possible that not all classes will see changes in 2.5, but there are definitely some class changes coming. I also want to set the expectation that you shouldn't expect crazy big changes like you saw with 2.0. but it will be a new set of changes. Also, if you don't receive changes in 2.5 don't fret as we will be continually touching class balance.

 

Last but not least, one thing I want to do is to make sure that you are all informed on both the decisions we are making and why we are making them. To that end, as we get closer to the launch of 2.5 we will be publishing some class change blogs similar to what we did around 2.0. This way you can all be as informed as possible! We will definitely make an effort to stay active in the class forums and keep you all apprised of any updates, as well as making sure we are continuing to pass feedback on the dev team.

 

I think that about wraps it up. If you have any questions I will stick around in the thread to try to answer them. Hopefully all of my ramblings make sense.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Megatfx

[kennethdale]

Every person in here who told me "Be patient blah blah blah" enjoy reading below. Biggest waste of time ever. Yeah sure they will "reopen correspondence" before 2.5 hits (In how many months from now?) but guess what? All the classes who already got their 3 questions answered get to have correspondence TWICE with the developers while we have had sample questions for over a freaking month.

 

I had tried several times to stress the importance of getting these questions in early for a multitude of reasons.

 

Let me tell you something I learned in the military, when you're early you're on time, when you're on time you're late. Holding the questions until the END is why we are now going to have to wait months for the answers.

 

Umm, I'm not certain I understand your reasoning here. He does make some fantastic points. In fact, most of our questions are digging deeper into the answers already given to the sentinels which is sort of a waste. He specifically said that they WOULD be doing balancing. He said that they WOULD be introducing changes in 2.5. He even said that they WOULD be doing blogs. While their history in terms of follow-through isn't the greatest, this is communication and if/when they fall through on these promises well then its just another reason to post in here as to why we're leaving in favor of FFXIV, ESO, Wildstar or any other game.

 

If I'm completely honest, I don't even care any more. PvP in this game is pointless as it gives nothing worthwhile. PvE is just a bunch of meaningless, storyless mechanic heavy fights that drop the same boring tokens or sh*t off-set gear and are offered up in the flavors of Easy, Slighty Harder, and Even Harder for No Real Reason. The only reason I'm still playing is because Wildstar isn't out yet. I loved KotOR and was seriously anticipating this game, then they announced there would be no mac version at launch and I sort of lost interest. I finally decided to build a new Windows machine and figured I'd give SWtOR a try and I was sorely disappointed. I feel like even the devs have given up and are just trying to churn out the hundreds of crap pieces of CM gear (plus the 1 good piece that everyone would want) so that they can squeeze every last dollar out of us before we all leave. I'm not even sure there is anything the Devs can do that would change my mind about leaving once Wildstar comes out. Hell, chances are that long before then I'll give up because there is just no reason to keep working for nothing worthwhile.

Edited September 19, 2013 by kennethdale

[CellPerfect]

Every person in here who told me "Be patient blah blah blah" enjoy reading below. Biggest waste of time ever. Yeah sure they will "reopen correspondence" before 2.5 hits (In how many months from now?) but guess what? All the classes who already got their 3 questions answered get to have correspondence TWICE with the developers while we have had sample questions for over a freaking month.

 

I had tried several times to stress the importance of getting these questions in early for a multitude of reasons. The main thing is there will be a "second set of top 3". The developer states that this won't be as impactful as he thinks it will be a revisit of the first 3 questioons. Wrong. Any intelligent person would realize that if any of their questions got a ridiculous response (Heal to full), that they would then ask a different question in replacement. Giving their class a second chance to ask a better question or revisit an issue by rewording. We now have one chance to do this.

 

Let me tell you something I learned in the military, when you're early you're on time, when you're on time you're late. Holding the questions until the END is why we are now going to have to wait months for the answers.

 

Sigh.

 

Quote:

 

I don't think you quite understand how the questions worked. We submit them on the day they tell us to, we CANNOT submit them early and get a response to them. Even if we had tried to submit them early, we would not have gotten a response because it wasn't time for them to answer our questions. The due date is when we can submit questions at the earliest, not the latest we can submit them. It's actually almost kind of good that we didn't get all 3 questions finalized yet because it would have been a waste of time and energy for all of us.

[Megatfx]

I don't think you quite understand how the questions worked. We submit them on the day they tell us to, we CANNOT submit them early and get a response to them. Even if we had tried to submit them early, we would not have gotten a response because it wasn't time for them to answer our questions. The due date is when we can submit questions at the earliest, not the latest we can submit them. It's actually almost kind of good that we didn't get all 3 questions finalized yet because it would have been a waste of time and energy for all of us.

 

Well if that's the case then everyone who didn't get a chance to to submit were screwed. The reason why I felt otherwise is the below excerpt.

 

Once we have returned the Shadow and Mercenary top 3 which were submitted last week, we will be putting it on hold.

[JediMasterSLC]

Well if that's the case then everyone who didn't get a chance to to submit were screwed. The reason why I felt otherwise is the below excerpt.

 

Once we have returned the Shadow and Mercenary top 3 which were submitted last week, we will be putting it on hold.

 

The Shadow and Merc questions were ahead of the Mara questions. All 8 ACs will have had one of their mirror questions answered after those 2 get answered.

 

Hey folks,

 

I wanted to lay out the rest of the information about the Class Representatives initiative. Mainly specifying the “calendar” for one each AC will be submitting their top 3 and also which side of the mirror will represent them each time! Here is the current schedule, note that the date listed is when the specific Class Rep will need to post the top 3.

 

Friday 8/2 – Sniper

Friday 8/2 – Sentinel

 

Friday 8/16 – Sorcerer

Friday 8/16 – Vanguard

 

Friday 8/30 – Scoundrel

Friday 8/30 – Juggernaut

 

Friday 9/13 – Shadow

Friday 9/13 – Mercenary

 

Friday 9/27 – Gunslinger

Friday 9/27 – Marauder

 

Friday 10/11 – Sage

Friday 10/11 – Powertech

 

Friday 10/25 – Operative

Friday 10/25 – Guardian

 

Friday 11/8 – Assassin

Friday 11/8 – Commando

 

So yeah, /thread

Edited September 19, 2013 by JediMasterSLC

[AngusFTW]

I can kinda see what they're doing but the way the 2 class reps decided to make sure they focus on different issues means it kinda sux for us i would have liked say combat/carnage issues answered before balance changes for example.

 

Not that we have all that much issues in the grand scheme of things we only need a few qol changes.

Edited September 19, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Seengularity]

I have been meaning to submit Marauder concerns (as seen through my eyes), but haven't gotten around to it. Guess we have a lot more time now?

 

Anyway, I'm not a bit happy with the potential questions (haven't checked in a bit though (my bad) - Nor do I get why the Marauder lolRep made 2 threads to collect them?

[kennethdale]

I have been meaning to submit Marauder concerns (as seen through my eyes), but haven't gotten around to it. Guess we have a lot more time now?

 

Anyway, I'm not a bit happy with the potential questions (haven't checked in a bit though (my bad) - Nor do I get why the Marauder lolRep made 2 threads to collect them?

 

1) How can you be unhappy with something that you haven't read? Are you psychic? How does that work for you? Do you just feel like a tremor and know that you don't like the marauder questions? That seems oddly specific for a super power, how does it fit into the rest of your life?

 

2) Why should you get an opinion on the CURRENT questions if you have at no point submitted any input? I'm very happy with the question I've contributed to (the others as well, but I don't know much about them so I don't really count my opinion on those), did I miss when they crowned you King of Marauders? Where is your crown? Is it a freakin' light crown (like a light saber but a crown) and if so how does that not burn your head?

 

3) By two threads do you mean the one called Marauder Class representative questions/discussions in which we discussed what the questions should be focused around and then the one called Marauder Class Representative: Sample Questions which was started to make a new, clean thread specifically dedicated to highlight the current iteration and form of the questions? I guess you knew all of that already because as was previously mentioned, you must be psychic, but does your psychic power not differentiate between DISCUSSION and ACTUAL QUESTIONS? Or does it not extend all of the other ACs which did very similar things? Again, if this psychic power of yours only applies to the Marauder Class Representatives questions, that seems very specific and it really must be a strange burden.

 

How are those questions for you?

Edited September 19, 2013 by kennethdale

[Seengularity]

123

 

I said I read them.

 

Your questions here are all silly anyway, like written by a 15 y/o (not to imply being 15 is a bad thing). I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings man ... But I can't say much since I don't know about crownings or psychics or super powers at all... You should turn that tv set off once in a while though. Also, that "strange burden" thing made me chuckle - thanks for that.

 

Anyone's entitled to saying 'I like / I don't like' by the way... just as your entitled to saying 'that's your opinion / I agree with you'

 

The "Class Rep Questions/Discussions" thread should stand alone. For simplicity and ease of use. And because there's discussions in the "Sample Questions" and there's potential questions in the "questions/discussions" threads. It's redundant.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Seengularity

[kennethdale]

I said I read them.

 

haven't checked in a bit though (my bad)

 

No, specifically what you said is that you HADN'T read them recently. For all you know they are now all pun-based questions regarding the viscosity of Rancor *****.

 

Your questions here are all silly anyway, like written by a 15 y/o (not to imply being 15 is a bad thing). I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings man ... But I can't say much since I don't know about crownings or psychics or super powers at all... You should turn that tv set off once in a while though.

 

Attempting to mock me using terrible grammar, emoticons, and then referencing television? That's simply hilarious. Oh gosh you're right, Mr. 80's High-School-Drama-Movie-Jock! I'm such a nerd that I'm posting in a video game forum and...wait. So are you. But unlike you, I'm speaking like an adult, properly using sarcasm (mocking with praise) and irony (saying the opposite of what you mean), and using basic functional logic!

 

Anyone's entitled to saying 'I like / I don't like' by the way... just as your entitled to saying 'that's your opinion / I agree with you'

 

No, they're actually not. I mean technically, yes, you have the capability to say anything you like (as long as it can't be perceived as terrorism. Or a threat. Or sexual assault. Hmm, guess you can't just say anything, after all!) however if I were to say that I don't like the beliefs of the tribesman of the upper Sahara regarding the sun, my opinion would be irrelevant because A) I don't actually know what those beliefs are or whether there are actually even tribes with specific beliefs native to the Upper Sahara and B) I'm not a tribesman of the Upper Sahara. My opinion isn't valid. You can go ahead and say whatever you like, but it doesn't mean your opinion is in the slightest valid.

 

The "Class Rep Questions/Discussions" thread should stand alone. For simplicity and ease of use. And because there's discussions in the "Sample Questions" and there's sample questions in the "questions/discussions" threads. It's redundant.

 

I'm sure you're aware of this but the original poster cannot actually control what or who posts in a thread they post. Here are the original posts for each thread:

 

 

Marauder class representative discussion/questions thread: Hello everyone, I am Gudarzz and I will be serving as your marauder class representative. Thanks to everyone who voted! Hopefully, we can generate a solid discussion (along with the sentinel representative KBN) about our class and come up with some pertinent questions to present to the developers.

 

First, a little about myself:

 

I am a player for <Hey im mvp>, a rated guild on the Bastion. I have over 1000 ranked games with a 2900 rating. I have a stream where I can be reached for any comments, concerns or opinions you might have. Finally, I am a strong supporter of the SWTOR community (we recently organized a charity event to bring positive attention to our game and contribute to an awesome cause at the same time).

 

Now for the marauder discussion:

 

As you may know, we need to generate 3 questions for the developers: 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 1 "Custom". I don't want to rush into details too quickly, as I want to confirm if we should designate a particular spec for a particular question type. For example, annihilation for pvp, carnage for pve, and rage for the custom question. Of course, this is only for organizational purposes, as all suggestions/concerns should keep both PVP and PVE in consideration. After all, we don't want a change that will stabilize and balance PVP but completely undermine PVE.

 

Carnage:

The general complaint about carnage involves its inherent reliance on RNG. Not only does the RNG determine top end burst, but it can also lead to underwhelming dps at times. This is largely due to several factors: unintended gore/execute procs from ataru strikes, reliance on force scream auto-crits, and some rage management issues. As a primer for discussion, I would like to present some initial ideas:

- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.

- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)

- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.

 

Annihilation:

I absolutely wanted to reserve the "pvp" question for this spec, as it seems to be a very reliable, "cut and dry" PVE spec for marauders. There is no question that the spec underperforms in rated pvp. At times, I feel like the spec is confused with itself: Is it truly a dot class despite the limited output of bleeds and weakness to cleanse? Or is it a burst spec that constantly struggles to keep the expensive and demanding annihilator buff? In terms of available specs, marauders and snipers are the only classes with 3 dps specs. Every other class has the option to serve in either the tank or healer role. Snipers are provided with a high "utility" engineering spec. So what do we do with annihilation? Should it mirror the utility of the engineering sniper as the "3rd" spec? Some primers for discussion (NOTE: Oofalong mentioned some of these ideas here):

- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.

- Annihilate can cause bonus damage based on stacks of annihilator or other factors.

- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.

- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).

- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.

 

Rage:

As one of the most controversial and heavily criticized specs, rage is difficult to address and balance for both PVP and PVE. As an AOE based spec, it performs too well in PVP and underperforms in PVE (unless your guild struggles at clearing trash mobs ). In PVP, the spec arguably generates better single target pressure than both annihilation and carnage with very little skill input and the added benefit of auto-crit smashes on multiple targets. There is very little risk and huge rewards (carnage burst can be denied with a knockback, annihilation dots can be countered...while rage can't be rooted). It even has a cheaper undying rage. How can this apparent "OP" spec be altered to make it more viable in PVE while keeping it under control in warzones? Some thoughts:

- WIth the exception of operation bosses, scale the damage of smash to the number of targets being hit and restore 4 stacks of shockwave. Therefore, you are penalized for hitting only a single target in PVP but still have strong single target damage in PVE. I know KBN stated a ~9% lower parse for rage and this would potentially make up some ground.

 

I know some of you have contacted me about general concerns. I haven't forgotten those requests. Bugs are part of every game, but the global skipping issues (happens around 5% of the time for me) have to be addressed by bioware as it threatens to diminish the quality of PVP, PVE, duels, etc.

 

Hopefully, I have provided some starter points for discussion. Make sure to follow KBN's sentinel thread and look out for Oofalong's posts as well. Let's keep the ideas organized and the trolls to a minimum. I await your input. Thanks!

 

Marauder Class Representative: Sample Questions: Updated on 9/15/13.

 

I read over the responses and there seems to be a concern that if we force too many changes in the questions, Bioware will give us another "heal to full" answer. I have shortened the questions to be more concise and focused on intent. I will provide an update on the 3rd question soon. For now, please focus on tweaking the questions below:

 

Carnage:

 

Carnage revolves around the ability to anticipate, plan, and execute periods of burst damage. However, carnage suffers from an inability to capitalize on Gore windows due to two distinct issues: Slaughter RNG and the excessive susceptibility to stuns/knockbacks. Due to the RNG design of Slaughter, any unplanned Ataru strikes (i.e those not originating from Massacre) have the potential to replace an available Gore with a Gore from Slaughter, essentially denying a second burst DPS window. Allowing the Gore from Slaughter to activate only when Gore is on cooldown, for instance, would resolve some of the negative aspects of RNG. Second, Gore windows are exceedingly vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks, especially in PVP where these counters are more readily available than Gore itself. Adding a level of protection to Gore windows would further encourage the use of Carnage in competitive PVP and, subsequently, would require a more skillful use of stuns and knockback counters. For example, Gore could be altered so that it remains as a temporary static buff until direct damage is initiated, at which point the 4.5 second window would commence. This would increase the damage potential of carnage and would require players to use stuns and knockbacks more skillfully.

 

Is this inability to capitalize on Gore windows intentional and, if so, what is the reasoning behind this decision?

 

Annihilation:

 

According to the response given in the Jedi Sentinel forums, the development team stated that Annihilation was intended to be the superior spec for sustained DPS. However, this does not hold true when comparing current Annihilation and Carnage DPS parses. This discrepancy is due to two distinct issues: lack of on demand DPS on target switches and the limited application/reapplication of bleeds. By design, PVE operation bosses will often disappear/cleanse or require DPS to be done in short phases. In PVP, target switches are mandatory to counter guards and defensive cooldowns. In both these cases, the sustained DPS of Annihilation is limited while Carnage provides the superior DPS options. The developer response in the Jedi Sentinel forums regarding Annihilator stacks and buff duration promises to resolve some of these issues. However, by providing a bonus to annihilate damage on bleed targets or changing the limited application/reapplication of bleeds, for example, Annihilation will be better able to close the DPS gap with Carnage, especially in PVE. Furthermore, a healing debuff talent in Agonizing Sabers would better compliment the utility value of Annihilation in PVP.

 

Does the development team believe that the design of Annihilation as a sustained DPS spec is performing as expected, especially in a PVE/PVP environment that favors burst damage and target switches?

 

 

I'm sure you're not willing to read that much, hence why it was included in spoiler tags. Basically, one outlines HIS opinions and things he thinks we should address, then opens it up for discussion. The other he asks specific questions and asks for feedback, which he has been great about incorporating. You on the other hand have said you meant to get around to adding something in but didn't; you haven't actually seen the questions recently, but know that you don't like them; and are an entitled child.

[Gudarzz]

I have been meaning to submit Marauder concerns (as seen through my eyes), but haven't gotten around to it. Guess we have a lot more time now?

 

Anyway, I'm not a bit happy with the potential questions (haven't checked in a bit though (my bad) - Nor do I get why the Marauder lolRep made 2 threads to collect them?

 

Better to be the "Marauder lolRep" than the Bastion lolMarauder...

 

Before this thread explodes into an all out war, you can find the links to the discussions in kennethdale's response above. The first thread was made to simply collect a massive amount of ideas so I could spot a trend. The second thread has questions that we can discuss and adjust as needed. A third thread will most likely be made so that the final questions can be presented to the developers.

 

As far as your concerns, perhaps I can ask the developers why certain marauders can't pass the huttball behind them...

 

Yeah, I know, shots fired...

[Seengularity]

Better to be the "Marauder lolRep" than the Bastion lolMarauder...

 

Before this thread explodes into an all out war, you can find the links to the discussions in kennethdale's response above. The first thread was made to simply collect a massive amount of ideas so I could spot a trend. The second thread has questions that we can discuss and adjust as needed. A third thread will most likely be made so that the final questions can be presented to the developers.

 

As far as your concerns, perhaps I can ask the developers why certain marauders can't pass the huttball behind them...

 

Yeah, I know, shots fired...

 

No. You can't even call anyone lolMara dude please... really? I sit above you in almost every warzone we happen to be in the same team, and you know this to be true (let me guess: "i'm just derping in regs brah, who cares"). Weak objs, weak dmg, needs guildies to carry him to wins with so-so individual performances... Scores of Maras from lesser known guilds would outdo you any day of the week. But wait, your signature says you're the worlds first to Gquit MVP? what a joke you even put that in your sig... Speaks volumes.

 

There's no war in sight here. It's just you and your sheep trying to be the loudest and bully me quiet... Anyway, didn't see or hear any shots fired (dummy rounds?).

Edited September 20, 2013 by Seengularity

[Lvein]

OOORRRRRRRR you two could just duel? I mean thats a simple way to fix the "whos better 1v1"

[Lvein]

Oh, btw http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=673695. Argument done.

[Megatfx]

Welp gotta make some quick apologies. Thankfully the second or third person to reply educated me on what I had failed to grasp for the last 2 months about the questions.

 

Gudarzzz the questions look fantastic, and you know this as I've already told you in-game on the PTS. They do even look more polished than the ones I told you looked great back then. I was telling you to hurry up, and I was in a rush about the class rep thing in August because I didn't realize that you were scheduled a date to submit the class questions and get a reply and if you had submitted earlier that nothing would have happened. When people kept saying "he has until october", I was thinking the deadline to have those submitted was october, not that he can't submit early and get a response upon being submitted. I had missed the dev post about it and I thought time was ticking away.

 

You can tell you have put a lot of effort into the questions and I really do like them a lot, especially for Carnage. Thanks for not blowing up on me and calling me out for being a complete idiot when reading this, and since you didn't, I'm here to call myself out first. I am a loudmouth, I don't even know how this account still has forum access after all my infractions, nor could I do the job of being class rep, from my point of view I honestly thought we had a deadline and I wanted to be early so we could get a response sooner rather than later.

 

Glad you were picked as class rep, he is a fantastic Marauder and I know this from playing with him.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Megatfx