New Carnage Marauder needs help with DPS

[mlambros]

Hey all!

 

Here are my recent parses:

 

Dummy (2300 DPS): http://www.torparse.com/a/419553/1/0/Damage+Dealt

NiM W. Horror (2400 DPS): http://www.torparse.com/a/419340/10/0/Damage+Dealt

 

For both of these I use Bloodthirst once and adrenal twice. My gear is actually pretty decent because I transferred the Mods from my previous main (DPS Juggy):

Set bonus (2/4), http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/dc09239a-6831-4a1e-ba65-0aa9e4ac0d0a

 

I know that I should be getting at least 200~300 more DPS so I was hoping you guys can dissect my parse and help in determining what I'm doing wrong

 

Appreciate the help!

Edited September 11, 2013 by mlambros

[Sameria]

First off, I can tell your still learning your rotation, because your APM is lower. If I compare you to one of the higher mara/sents, your about 5-8 APM less(which can make up ALOT).

 

I would defiantly start off reading the following guide. KBN did a great job with it.

KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank)

 

Edit: Also, your gear looks properly stated, so no worries there.

 

I'm not a pro at carnage, so I will leave rotation comments to a little someone better.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Sameria

[Ancillary]

Hullo!

There was a few things I noticed you were doing wrong by looking at your dummy parse.

First of all, these abilities, and only these, should you use in a gore window; Force scream (FS), Vicious throw (VT), Massacre and Ravage. And you must not use FS and/or Ravage OUTSIDE a gore window.

 

Carnage revolves around gore, and how much damage you can do in a gore window, this is the main thing you have to keep in mind when playing the spec. You must make sure you have the rage required to burn through your high damaging attacks in a gore window. The time between gore windows is your time to build rage, making sure your ataru form procs both slaughter and execute, and to use lower damaging attacks such as Dual sabre throw (DST) and rupture.

 

Although rupture is a very good attack to fill in with, you have to keep in mind that the bleeds are INTERNAL damage. Thus, the bleeds won't be affected by the armor penetration of gore. The initial damage from rupture, and DST for that matter, is lower than the damage from Massacre (with the proc from ataru taken into account). So you should refrain from using these attacks (rupture and DST) inside a gore window, unless completely starved on rage and you have to fill in with DST.

 

Now that I've explained the most vital things, I will teach you a very good opening rotation. Although this opening is highly dependant on slaughter proc, it is VERY powerful when it works. Berserk allows you to squeeze in 4 GCD's in a gore window, so when you have built up 30 stacks of fury this is how you start;

 

Berserk> [OPTIONAL: Frenzy> Bloodthirst > Adrenal] Force charge > Battering Assault > Gore > Massacre x3 (slaughter proc, hopefully) > VT > Gore > Ravage > FS

 

As I said, this rotation is dependant on Slaughter to proc, but it will USUALLY proc after the 2nd or 3rd use of massacre, note that it can proc too early as well, i.e. when using force charge or BA. I've been using this rotation in most fights, and with it, I can reach ~4500 the first 20 seconds of the fight. Of course, there are alternative rotations to use, especially with the alacrity change to ravage, but this opening is fairly trivial. Be careful not to pull aggro from the tank!

 

Another thing, you can try to keep track of your slaughter proc to best optimize the use of gore. If gore is about to come off CD, and the force tells you that slaughters internal CD surely must be over at the time, refrain from using Massacre, and use others abilities instead, such as Assault...

 

And as Sameria mentioned, your APM should be a bit higher, so keep spamming that berserk!

 

I hope this made sense, I'm not the best teacher, but I have a good understanding of the spec. If you like, I can post my AMR profile and one of my recent dummy parses.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ancillary

[mlambros]

Thanks for your replies guys!

 

Yeah the first thing I noticed when comparing my parses to the top ones is that my heavy hitters are not Crit-ing as much as they should be. So I probably was not doing a good job of keeping Ravage and FS inside the Gore window and I definitely didn't use FS only when Execute proc'd.

 

Based on the advice and guides you suggested I will be trying this next (brackets are Gore windows):

 

Opener:

Charge > (BT + Fr) BA > (Rel + Adr + Berserk) [Gore + MAS x3 > VT] > [Gore > Ravage > FS]

 

Rage Builder:

Strike > BA > MAS> Strike > Rupture > Strike > MAS> Strike

 

Normal Rotations:

[Gore + FS > MAS > DST] > Strike > [Gore + VT > MAS > FS] (if no BA is up)

[Gore+ FS> MAS> MAS]> BA > [Gore+ VT > MAS> FS] (if BA is up)

[Gore + MAS > (Berserk) Ravage] (whenever Ravage is up)

DST, Rupture as outside Gore window fillers

 

Notes:

-Use Ravage only within a Gore window.

-Use FS only within a Gore window and if Execute is proc’d

-Keep Rage at a minimum of 6 prior to Gore windows

Edited September 12, 2013 by mlambros

[AngusFTW]

I'm not an expert on carnage pve but play a lot of it in pvp but what i can tell from your logs is that you are popping off scream without the autocrit proc too much. Since you are at like 70-80% crit in your parses. In a perfect carnage parse this will be 100%

[Ancillary]

Thanks for your replies guys!

 

Yeah the first thing I noticed when comparing my parses to the top ones is that my heavy hitters are not Crit-ing as much as they should be. So I probably was not doing a good job of keeping Ravage and FS inside the Gore window and I definitely didn't use FS only when Execute proc'd.

 

Based on the advice and guides you suggested I will be trying this next (brackets are Gore windows):

 

Opener:

Charge > (BT + Fr) BA > (Rel + Adr + Berserk) [Gore + MAS x3 > VT] > [Gore > Ravage > FS]

 

Rage Builder:

Strike > BA > MAS> Strike > Rupture > Strike > MAS> Strike

 

Normal Rotations:

[Gore + FS > MAS > DST] > Strike > [Gore + VT > MAS > FS] (if no BA is up)

[Gore+ FS> MAS> MAS]> BA > [Gore+ VT > MAS> FS] (if BA is up)

[Gore + MAS > (Berserk) Ravage] (whenever Ravage is up)

DST, Rupture as outside Gore window fillers

 

Notes:

-Use Ravage only within a Gore window.

-Usa FS only within a Gore window and if Execute is proc’d

-Keep Rage at a minimum of 6 prior to Gore windows

 

Yes that's right. If you do the rotations correctly, you should increase your DPS by alot! Please update with results.

Here's a parse of mine from a few days ago if you want to compare it to yours.

http://www.torparse.com/a/421067/2/0/Damage+Dealt

[mlambros]

Ok W-T-F !?!?!?

 

I was using my ship dummy and getting the lame results as before like I showed in the beginning of the OP (2200~2300 DPS).

 

I just parsed on the Fleet Dummy and did this!

http://www.torparse.com/a/421954/4/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Of course I followed yours all advice but up 600 DPS???

 

Is there super-lag on my ship or something?

Edited September 13, 2013 by mlambros

[mlambros]

Also, when I use my Ship Dummy I get almost no Slaughter procs

[mlambros]

And another on the Fleet Dummy. Over 3000 this time!

http://www.torparse.com/a/422102/66/0/Damage+Dealt

I tried again on my Ship Dummy and I still cant get anything over 2500 and it does feel laggy....

Anyone else have this issue?

[Ancillary]

Wrong dummy mate! You went for the Combat training target, it should be Operations training target (which has more armor), common mistake. Ship dummy is the way to go. Slaughter not proccing is probably just situational, it should proc exactly the same on most targets.

[mlambros]

Wrong dummy mate! You went for the Combat training target, it should be Operations training target (which has more armor), common mistake. Ship dummy is the way to go. Slaughter not proccing is probably just situational, it should proc exactly the same on most targets.

 

I faced-palmed myself about 5 mins after making the last post...

Oh well....I guess practice will make better DPS.....

[Kijik]

OK, So I'm seeing you guys say to only use FS/Ravage inside a gore window, and that makes sense, but in my experience that tends to leave you looking at FS/Ravage not being used for 3-5 seconds at a time. How is this not an overall dps loss? I used to do that myself and save FS/Ravage for only in Gore windows, and my dps was actually lower than what it is now. So naturally this is contradictory to previous statements, anyone mind explaining more in-depth?

[mlambros]

Yes that's right. If you do the rotations correctly, you should increase your DPS by alot! Please update with results.

Here's a parse of mine from a few days ago if you want to compare it to yours.

http://www.torparse.com/a/421067/2/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Here is my latest parse:

http://www.torparse.com/a/424667/time/1379217636/1379217936/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Getting better a little but do you think I'm using Massacre too much?

[HundredBears]

OK, So I'm seeing you guys say to only use FS/Ravage inside a gore window, and that makes sense, but in my experience that tends to leave you looking at FS/Ravage not being used for 3-5 seconds at a time. How is this not an overall dps loss?

 

Short answer: if you're executing the rotation correctly, you'll be Screaming often enough that you'll only be able to it 16-34% more often by hitting it on cooldown. Meanwhile, fitting it into a Gore window is a 38% damage buff (and this is in a raid environment with armor debuff, it will look even better on a dummy). This also doesn't take into account that you'll have trouble consistently getting the Execute proc every nine seconds and so won't be able to use it on cooldown even if you use it outside Gore windows. The math is a little bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it. Note that this is only true if you're using the rotation in the guide linked near the start of the thread. If you're not executing it very well or if you're using a different rotation, things can work out differently.

 

There almost certainly are cases where you want to use Ravage outside of a Gore winodw, but delaying it by 3-5 seconds isn't enough of a reason. Since its cooldown is so long, you aren't using it much less often from such a short delay and therefore lose much less damage than you gain from fitting it into the window.

 

Getting better a little but do you think I'm using Massacre too much?

 

Massacre is a few percent more of your damage than it is in most of the top parses, but two other things come to mind as more pressing. The first is Scream usage. WIth the exception of the opener, always Scream at the start of the first of the two Gore windows and always Scream at the end of the second. The rage-building part of the rotation is as much about getting the Execute proc for the first Scream as it is building rage: I'd suggest focusing on getting the proc and getting enough rage instead of following a fixed rotation there, even it means missing Rupture or using exclusively force-builders after you have the proc. The end goal is to get another 10-11 Screams into a parse of that length.

 

Your Gore windows also seem to be at strange distances from one another. Remember that the rythym is Gore->Atacks in Gore Window->Rage builder->Gore. Don't skip the rage builder even if you have enough rage, and always Gore as soon as you can after it, no matter how long you have to alternate Massacre and rage builders before getting the proc to refresh the cooldown.

 

In terms of raw dps, I'd say you're around halfway to where you could be: 300 dps over where you started is a nice improvement, and you should be able to put out at least 200 more once you've mastered the rotation.

Edited September 16, 2013 by HundredBears
Avoiding double-post with parse commentary

[Kijik]

So, you're saying in full 72s, a Carnage mara should optimally be putting out 2900 dps? Freaking shoot me D: lol I'm at about 2700 on a dummy last time I parsed, and while I have an arkanian relic/earpiece and an unoptimized implant/only at 2/4 for my set bonus, apparently my dps is low D:

[HundredBears]

For full 72s with set bonus (marauders have one of the best 4-pieces), 2900 sounds right. It might not be possible to hit it with every single parse, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average was actually higher, assuming perfect execution. Ancedotally, my marauder is in gear similar to yours (pvp relics and one implant, 2-piece set bonus and a few 69s) while also parsing 2700-2800 most of the time, and I know that there are mistakes in my rotation.

 

I wouldn't call 90-95% of a spec's optimal damage low, either. Maybe medium, maybe high; either way, it's the point where what you can do in a real boss fight becomes way more important than ironing out the last kinks in your rotation under perfect circumstances. This isn't saying that topping the leaderboards isn't impressive or that dummy parsing can't be fun, but rather that you shouldn't feel bad about not having the absolute highest dummy parse possible.

Edited September 17, 2013 by HundredBears

[mlambros]

Short answer: if you're executing the rotation correctly, you'll be Screaming often enough that you'll only be able to it 16-34% more often by hitting it on cooldown. Meanwhile, fitting it into a Gore window is a 38% damage buff (and this is in a raid environment with armor debuff, it will look even better on a dummy). This also doesn't take into account that you'll have trouble consistently getting the Execute proc every nine seconds and so won't be able to use it on cooldown even if you use it outside Gore windows. The math is a little bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it. Note that this is only true if you're using the rotation in the guide linked near the start of the thread. If you're not executing it very well or if you're using a different rotation, things can work out differently.

 

There almost certainly are cases where you want to use Ravage outside of a Gore winodw, but delaying it by 3-5 seconds isn't enough of a reason. Since its cooldown is so long, you aren't using it much less often from such a short delay and therefore lose much less damage than you gain from fitting it into the window.

 

 

 

Massacre is a few percent more of your damage than it is in most of the top parses, but two other things come to mind as more pressing. The first is Scream usage. WIth the exception of the opener, always Scream at the start of the first of the two Gore windows and always Scream at the end of the second. The rage-building part of the rotation is as much about getting the Execute proc for the first Scream as it is building rage: I'd suggest focusing on getting the proc and getting enough rage instead of following a fixed rotation there, even it means missing Rupture or using exclusively force-builders after you have the proc. The end goal is to get another 10-11 Screams into a parse of that length.

 

Your Gore windows also seem to be at strange distances from one another. Remember that the rythym is Gore->Atacks in Gore Window->Rage builder->Gore. Don't skip the rage builder even if you have enough rage, and always Gore as soon as you can after it, no matter how long you have to alternate Massacre and rage builders before getting the proc to refresh the cooldown.

 

In terms of raw dps, I'd say you're around halfway to where you could be: 300 dps over where you started is a nice improvement, and you should be able to put out at least 200 more once you've mastered the rotation.

 

Thanks so much for your replies! They have been really helpful!

 

The reason my Gore windows are spaced out weird is becuase I have NOT been getting the Slaughter proc often. That is why I have been spaming Massacre so much. This is most evident in my opener where after Gore + 3 x Mas + VT I'm supposed to get the proc "most of the time" for the second window. For me that is only maybe 1/5 openers. I have been seeing this on the Dummy. I saw this last night when doing HM Styrak! I have also met some Snipers and Mercs that have been complaining about their proc rates on their specs as well. The low proc rate can be due to different things:

A. Something is messed up with RNG lately

B. Myself and the people I have been meeting have a long run of bad luck

C. I'm doing something wrong with my rotation. Are there abilities that make Slaughter proc more often?

 

Up until a few months ago I was playing with my Sentinel in causal PvP and I know that I was getting the proc much more often back then.

 

Any opinions on this?

Edited September 17, 2013 by mlambros

[HundredBears]

I apologize for not being clear enough: you benefit from Screaming at those fixed times even if you don't have Execute up. It's awful when the RNG messes with you like that, but the other options are all worse. You lose a rage and a few thousand damage unless you get lucky and Scream crits on its own, but delaying Gore or Scream can cost a bit more than that at the next Gore window.

 

Every Combat/Carnage player that I've talked to has suffered bad RNG at some point or another. Your trouble with the opener is really wierd, though. Your opener should get you Execute in time on about 4/5ths of your tries. I've only seen trouble that bad when I didn't realize that I had switched to Shii-Cho in the middle of a Dash'roode pull, and I doubt that you made that mistake. Maybe just bad luck, which is easier to notice than average luck? That's just a guess, though.

[mlambros]

I apologize for not being clear enough: you benefit from Screaming at those fixed times even if you don't have Execute up. It's awful when the RNG messes with you like that, but the other options are all worse. You lose a rage and a few thousand damage unless you get lucky and Scream crits on its own, but delaying Gore or Scream can cost a bit more than that at the next Gore window.

 

Every Combat/Carnage player that I've talked to has suffered bad RNG at some point or another. Your trouble with the opener is really wierd, though. Your opener should get you Execute in time on about 4/5ths of your tries. I've only seen trouble that bad when I didn't realize that I had switched to Shii-Cho in the middle of a Dash'roode pull, and I doubt that you made that mistake. Maybe just bad luck, which is easier to notice than average luck? That's just a guess, though.

 

Here is my last parse:

http://www.torparse.com/a/429644/4/0/Damage+Dealt

 

I still feel like Slaughter should be proc'ing more often...but I may be wrong

In your experience do you think Slaughter is proc'ng at a "normal" rate by looking at the log?

[mlambros]

Here is my last parse:

http://www.torparse.com/a/429644/4/0/Damage+Dealt

 

I still feel like Slaughter should be proc'ing more often...but I may be wrong

In your experience do you think Slaughter is proc'ng at a "normal" rate by looking at the log?

 

Ok I'm going to attempt to answer my own question with some rough calculations...

I compared my dummy parse to the top Marauder parse. Lets just call the top parser "Joe".

I counted mine and Joe's Slaughter procs in the logs by using the find "gains Slaughter" function.

 

So Joe's parse was 5.10 mins and he had 13 procs. So his rate is 2.55 procs/min

My parse was 10.90 mins and I had 28 procs. My rate is 2.57 procs/mins

 

So my rate is actually a little higher and if you consider that's Joe's APM is higher than mine (48 vs 44) his rate is even less.

 

Conclusion: There is nothing wrong with RNG...just my perception

Edited September 19, 2013 by mlambros