Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[Beniboybling]

it will do damage on both ends, if the Brotherhood fails then the DS can recup that damage, the botherhood cant its all or nothing at geonosis for the brotherhood but it isn't all or nothing for the DS. The DS can win with out it but the Brotherhood cant and it is very unclear that they can even win there.

Unless of course Malgus succeeds in destroying the Geonosian foundries. It took two Padawans to take one down in the Second Battle of Geonosis. Now of course the argument can be made that Malgus may try to preserve them, but he'll likely have a contigency plan put in place in the instance that the invasion fails.

[Beniboybling]

Long story short, he DS has G0-T0 and Guri. Both of which know quite a bit about assassination, infiltration, and careful planning. They are the perfect pair to lead Malgus into a situation he simply can't walk away from. Two supercomputing cutthroats. Working together. To trap an overconfident Sith. They'll have a field day.

Overconfident? That's the last thing Malgus is. I think we should be wary of throwing around these words. Just because someone is imposing and determined does not make them overconfident, the two are very different things. And Malgus would be hard pressed to overestimate his abilities.

 

But on the topic at hand, it is a possibilty, but we are going to need more that that. I'm not asking for a scenario, just some elaboration of various methods. We can't simply say 'they are good assassins!' (to which the counter-argument is: Malgus is extremely difficult to kill) and leave it at that.

 

Though as a general point, assassination attempts are likely to be more successful if Malgus is losing ground engagements, for obvious reasons.

[Warren-Stride]

Overconfident? That's the last thing Malgus is. I think we should be wary of throwing around these words. Just because someone is imposing and determined does not make them overconfident, the two are very different things. And Malgus would be hard pressed to overestimate his abilities.

 

Does killing his master, a powerful Sith, just when a war is beginning not seem overconfident? Does creating a new Empire not seem overconfident? Does walking into the Jedi Temple alone not seem overconfident? Does being on the front of every single battle he's in not seem overconfident?

 

It also says on his Wookiee profile that he's confident. I do my research. I don't just "throw words around." I think it's also important not to throw words around that other people are throwing words around.

 

Speaking of Malgus' personality:

Malgus did not tolerate failure at any cost. After he killed Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach and learned of Satele Shan and her comrades' escape, he felt disgusted with his Sith Master, Vindican for not assuring a total victory. Although he struck the wounded Pureblood Sith Lord down, he nonetheless savored their last victory together, which was of utmost significance.

 

If the invasion of Geonosis fails, someone will have to answer for it in Malgus' eyes. Most likely Durge or Ventress.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Warren-Stride]

But on the topic at hand, it is a possibilty, but we are going to need more that that. I'm not asking for a scenario, just some elaboration of various methods. We can't simply say 'they are good assassins!' (to which the counter-argument is: Malgus is extremely difficult to kill) and leave it at that.

 

Well, first time he was killed he activated a self destruct sequence. So... if a strike team were to confront him on his ship during a space battle, he would potentially do the same thing.

 

We got Terror Troopers and Ubese, both who use stealth technology. Ubese exist to kill Force users. Terror Troopers are fast enough to dodge Starkiller's lightsaber blows. All of them could easily infiltrate wherever Malgus is.

 

Traps. Jekk'jekk Tar gas (his mask doesn't filter toxins, at least we have no evidence of it). A swarm of floating mines. Or just blowing up a place, such as a droid factory, Kamino city, Bothawui palace, when he steps foot inside. Shocks such as those used to subdue the Exile.

 

Hacking into his ship and making it go critical. Or having HK-01's droids do it.

 

Kill him on a random battle field where he's constantly in danger.

 

Droidekas.

 

Acids, bioweapons, chemicals, diseases, administered through infiltration onto his flagship.

 

 

I mean, it's assassination. There are dozens of ways to do it. The list could go on and on forever.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

Unless of course Malgus succeeds in destroying the Geonosian foundries. It took two Padawans to take one down in the Second Battle of Geonosis. Now of course the argument can be made that Malgus may try to preserve them, but he'll likely have a contigency plan put in place in the instance that the invasion fails.

 

I believe those 2 padawans had the distraction provided by the clones to accomplish their mission and that many clones still died..... correct me if I am wrong I very well could be but I don't think 2 padawans solod it and if it indeed the case that I think it is then my assessment of it costing the Brotherhood doesn't change. It would still cost them dearly and if they won and had to retreat the DS can rebuild the factories, and will still have more then enough army left to fight until it is done. If the UB win the battle at geonosis completely it will cost them enough that the Kamino forces and what is being built there will end them.

[Beniboybling]

Does killing his master, a powerful Sith, just when a war is beginning not seem overconfident? Does creating a new Empire not seem overconfident? Does walking into the Jedi Temple alone not seem overconfident? Does being on the front of every single battle he's in not seem overconfident?

 

It also says on his Wookiee profile that he's confident. I do my research. I don't just "throw words around." I think it's also important not to throw words around that other people are throwing words around.

 

Speaking of Malgus' personality:

 

 

If the invasion of Geonosis fails, someone will have to answer for it in Malgus' eyes. Most like Durge or Ventress.

This is exactly my point. You assume that because someone is confident and determined, that they are automatically overconfident and therefore reckless, foolhardy and brash. Malgus is none of these things, he is confident in his own abilities, nothing more. There is a massive distinction between these two definitions. Which means he won't overextend himself, but neither will he waste his skill. I don't mean to cause offensive, but given that it is no where stated that Malgus is overconfident, you are essentially putting forward personality traits without any basis.

 

I mean let's go over your evidence:

 

1. Malgus killing his master had nothing to do with overconfidence. He was merely exacting the Sith Code. His master had failed and as such had proven himself inferior to his apprentice, it is the apprentice's duty therefore to kill him.

 

2. Malgus creating a New Empire was not a result of overconfidence, but of dedication to his principles. He couldn't stand by and watch as the Empire tore itself apart from the inside. Taking into account that Malgus likely foresaw the imminent defeat of the Empire, from his perspective he likely felt he had no choice but to act. Though we should not that when confronted by a strike team, he was not so overconfident to assume he could win, and put in place a contingency plan in the case that he was defeated. Because he knew what he was capable of.

 

3. The attack on the Jedi Temple was as carefully constructed plan, every move had significance and none were simply the result of overconfidence. The primary reason that Malgus entered the temple alone was likely to provide a temporary distraction while Viszla infiltrated the Temple and deactivated the planet's security grid.

 

4. Malgus was a Sith Warrior, so it is only natural for him to fight on the front lines. He was confident in his abilities and new how best to utilize them, Malgus would be wasted surveying the battle from a far, leading his troops from the front is the best means of ensuring success, and it worked, time and time again. Again, confidence, not overconfidence.

 

5. Malgus did not tolerate failure. Neither did Vader. Yet he made sure never to overestimate his abilities. I don't think their is any correlation between the two personality traits. Malgus as a Sith Lord, is naturally unforgiving and likely believes that if it is within ones abilities to complete a task, they should do so without fail. Failure is therefore the result of incompetence, and it is not natural for a Sith to tolerate incompetence.

 

Malgus' actual personality is one of the exact opposite, and designed to be a stark contrast to the arrogant personalities of the likes of Adraas and other Sith Lords, who Malgus is distinctively different from. Because Malgus is not arrogant, dishonorable or self-centered but instead quite the opposite. Indeed him being an arrogant and overconfident would lead him to be a xenophobic supremacist, rather than an advocate of stereotypically 'weak' and inferior species. But instead he values and recognizes the abilities of others. He doesn't overconfidently believe that he and the Sith can do everything themselves and have no need for alien alliances.

 

Simply put, Malgus being overconfident does not suit his personality at all.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I'm beginning to think that an attack on Mon Calamari before Geonosis is more likely. For one its a lot closer than I thought, within striking distance of Lianna and secondly as the naval hub it will be where the majority of the Supremacy's fleets will be positioned. So while Malgus may not see the shipyards themselves as such an important target as the foundries on Geonosis he will see it as a danger as the Supremacy could easily invade Lianna and strike at Sith Space within less than a day. And also, given its distance from the rest of the Supremacy's worlds, its isolation makes it an easier target. Malgus could storm in with the near entirety of his fleet and theoretically take the planet before retreating to his worlds well before any reinforcements arrive, and in the process cripple the enemies fleet.

[Warren-Stride]

I don't mean to cause offensive, but given that it is no where stated that Malgus is overconfident, you are essentially putting forward personality traits without any basis.

 

I think you're getting a bit too caught up in the word. Let me rephrase it: hands-on.

[StarSquirrel]

I'm beginning to think that an attack on Mon Calamari before Geonosis is more likely. For one its a lot closer than I thought, within striking distance of Lianna and secondly as the naval hub it will be where the majority of the Supremacy's fleets will be positioned. So while Malgus may not see the shipyards themselves as such an important target as the foundries on Geonosis he will see it as a danger as the Supremacy could easily invade Lianna and strike at Sith Space within less than a day. And also, given its distance from the rest of the Supremacy's worlds, its isolation makes it an easier target. Malgus could storm in with the near entirety of his fleet and theoretically take the planet before retreating to his worlds well before any reinforcements arrive, and in the process cripple the enemies fleet.

 

I don't usually quote myself but...

 

 

First off, consider distance. Seriously it would take weeks (actually we agree to 6-10 days but still) for them to arrive at Kamino and Geonosis and they'd have to wait even longer to coordinate. Also, HK-01's reprogrammed utility droids [snip] and the resources on Nar Shadda are going to give G0-T0 all knowledge and time in the galaxy to set up a trap that annihilates them. Also, Grievous and Malgus are smart and know that they're fighting a weaker opponent with similar numbers but that it wont always be like that. They wont split their force up initially going into enemy territory because (especially Grievous) they want to make a show of force and win, not risk it on the hopes that G0-T0 doesn't know and divides his forces (rather he'd just mass up and overwhelm them one at a time).

 

Also why the hell would you try to attack an enemy planet so damn far out from your territory only to realize it has shields that you then have to take down?

 

And I saw a good point earlier about how if UB uses the Commerce Guild's droids, they've effectively screwed themselves. Like, the absence of droids in the UB was a good thing until that came up.

 

A few other things. The major point of contention here will be Mon Cal, as it is easily the closest and vital to the space campaign. With the somewhat interesting change in my perception of the makeup of both fleets, I cannot stress this enough, what happens to Mon Cal will decide it all. If the UB can destroy Mon Cal then DS can't build a fleet of more powerful vessels. UB will also get a way to build more than just their fighters. As we've seen from the previous kaggaths, the space battle is often one of the biggest deciding factors

 

Back on page 15...

Edited September 5, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

I don't usually quote myself but...

 

Back on page 15...

Is that your way of saying I told you so?

 

No, but I stand by my response to that. However its not so much the shipyards but the fleet itself that poses a threat. I don't really see even the Mon Cal shipyards being able to overcome the naval advantage the Brotherhood possess, but they still have hundreds of vessels within striking distance of the Brotherhood's worlds, which is a problem.

 

However there isn't really much stopping the Brotherhood from achieving victory at Mon Cal. They can arrive at the planet within a day in practical full force - we are talking the full might of Revan's Sith Navy with lead by excellent naval commanders. Against a force, while a third larger, its considerably outgunned.

 

Yet much like the battle between Malgus and Xizor, the war for G0-T0 is likely going to be a pretense for his attempts to remove Malgus. His fleets, armies and planets are merely buying him time - this is G0-T0's biggest advantage.

 

Indeed I feel G0-T0s plans will revolve primarily around PROXY - who's usefulness has not been explored. He can imitate the appearance and voice pattern of just about anyone, making him the perfect infiltration unit. Most likely while the war rages G0-T0 will be working behind the scenes to embed PROXY in the deepest recesses of the Brotherhood, then its simply a case of maneuvering Malgus into the right position, and springing the trap.

 

And I'm not talking attempting to fight him, poisoning him etc. I'm talking blowing up his ship, orbitally bombarding him, making things go BOOM! Because that's the only real way one can take Malgus down.

 

I also advise everyone takes a look at this thread. Its only 17 pages but littered with some interesting scenarios were the words Xizor and Guri could easily be substituted for G0-T0 and PROXY. But enough help from me, I suggest Supremacy supporters get their brains in gear and start cooking up some argument.

[StarSquirrel]

Is that your way of saying I told you so?

Yes, yes it is.

 

Ok, how about this. Let's say Malgus (at some point) attacks Geonosis. What is there to stop the DS from gassing the entire planet using bio and chemical weapons? As machines they lack the vulnerabilities of organic life. They don't need oxygen and can't die to poisons.

 

Or, what if Malgus attacks Mon Cal in space and the utility droids under HK-01's influence vent the entire ship to space at once? or seal every bulkhead between Malgus and the escape pods/shuttles/fighters and trigger the self destruct? or if they just gassed the ship? or if they screwed with the nav system and flew him into a star? Or if they damaged the thrusters and drove his ship into a planet or another ship?

 

How about Guri or PROXY infiltrate his ship and do any of those? Or they could slip explosives aboard, or they could take just impersonate the pilot and fly his ship straight to a DS base where they could flood the ships with droids or just blast it to pieces. They could do this in a shuttle or his flagship.

 

What if, when he's fighting on the ground G0-T0 tracks him and uses a second large force of droids kept in reserve to swarm the part of the battle field Malgus is on. Or PROXY could impersonate a Sith/Massassi and carry and explosive right next to Malgus then detonate when he isn't expecting it. Heck PROXY could impersonate a million different people to get close enough to Malgus to detonate an explosive and considering they have the Exchange, they can buy some extremely powerful, undetectable, and concentrated explosives to carry this out.

 

PROXY could also pilot another capital ship in Malgus's fleet and ram it into Malgus's ship's bridge or track Malgus, and then have the entire DS fleet concentrate fire on his ship.

Edited September 5, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Yes, yes it is.

 

Ok, how about this. Let's say Malgus (at some point) attacks Geonosis. What is there to stop the DS from gassing the entire planet using bio and chemical weapons? As machines they lack the vulnerabilities of organic life. They don't need oxygen and can't die to poisons.

 

Or, what if Malgus attacks Mon Cal in space and the utility droids under HK-01's influence vent the entire ship to space at once? or seal every bulkhead between Malgus and the escape pods/shuttles/fighters and trigger the self destruct? or if they just gassed the ship? or if they screwed with the nav system and flew him into a star? Or if they damaged the thrusters and drove his ship into a planet or another ship?

 

How about Guri or PROXY infiltrate his ship and do any of those? Or they could slip explosives aboard, or they could take just impersonate the pilot and fly his ship straight to a DS base where they could flood the ships with droids or just blast it to pieces. They could do this in a shuttle or his flagship.

 

What if, when he's fighting on the ground G0-T0 tracks him and uses a second large force of droids kept in reserve to swarm the part of the battle field Malgus is on. Or PROXY could impersonate a Sith/Massassi and carry and explosive right next to Malgus then detonate when he isn't expecting it. Heck PROXY could impersonate a million different people to get close enough to Malgus to detonate an explosive and considering they have the Exchange, they can buy some extremely powerful, undetectable, and concentrated explosives to carry this out.

 

PROXY could also pilot another capital ship in Malgus's fleet and ram it into Malgus's ship's bridge or track Malgus, and then have the entire DS fleet concentrate fire on his ship.

Bioweapons are definitely a possibility. We've got more exploding bioweapons like Trihexalon which basically vaporize biological opponents in the surrounding vicinity. Or more air-borne viruses which can coat entire planets in deadly chemicals, poisoning and kill all biological life. However the Brotherhood has some defense against this:

 

1. Force shields, if the Supremacy attempts to fire exploding bioweapons at their opponents the Sith and Malgus will respond by throwing up a shield which should protect them from the impact. The same applies if they attempted to detonate an airborne virus across the battlefield.

 

2. Detoxify poison, Sith and Jedi alike are capable of purging poisons from their bodies. Dooku himself was easily capable of resisting a deadly viral infection. I'm sure Malgus would be capable of doing the same.

 

3. Orbital control, if the Supremacy wishes to gain the element of surprise, they will have to release a planet-wide weapon in the midst of battle. Releasing it before would run the risk of detection, not only would their be visible but the toxicity of the atmosphere may be detected by orbital scanners. However if the Brotherhood is winning, or at least has a foothold, in the space battle, the Supremacy will find it difficutl to fire the weapon.

 

In terms of hacking, don't overestimate the amount of access astromechs have to the ships systems. On board a large capital ship their primary role will be maintenance and repair, they will not have access to the bridge. Its possible they could say deactivate the hyperdrive or overload the reactor core, but the latter does not result in instant destruction of the entire ship as seen in TCW. it would leave the vessel vulnerable though.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Query: How good is the Commerce Guild at acquiring Weapons?

Quite good I'd imagine?

[Beniboybling]

Query: How good is the Commerce Guild at acquiring Weapons?

Quite good I'd imagine?

What kind of weapons are we talking about here? Because neither the Sith nor Massassai are in need of blasters etc.

 

Though as a trading conglomerate they are effectively the legal counterpart to the underworld. So quite good yes. In such a case EMP based weaponary could come in handy against droid targets.

[Selenial]

What kind of weapons are we talking about here? Because neither the Sith nor Massassai are in need of blasters etc.

 

Though as a trading conglomerate they are effectively the legal counterpart to the underworld. So quite good yes. In such a case EMP based weaponary could come in handy against droid targets.

Especially the huge EMP bomb the republic dropped that killed thousands of droids in one go, possibly 10's of thousands.

[Beniboybling]

Especially the huge EMP bomb the republic dropped that killed thousands of droids in one go, possibly 10's of thousands.

I doubt they'll get hold of that. It was a one of a kind and the schematics were likely top-secret, at to that the fact it was likely never used again after the Zillo Beast fiasco.

 

However the following would certainly be useful:

 

EMP grenades or 'droid poppers' - while unlikely to be of much use on the frontlines, for infiltration missions and perhaps even again terror droids they could prove very effective to stun and/or silence.

 

Magpulse busters or 'droid busters' - concussion missiles that detonate five feet of the ground, neutrailising every droid in a fifty metre radius. With sufficient airsupport (which their fighters could provide) this could be very useful in major ground invasions.

[Selenial]

I doubt they'll get hold of that. It was a one of a kind and the schematics were likely top-secret, at to that the fact it was likely never used again after the Zillo Beast fiasco.

 

However the following would certainly be useful:

 

EMP grenades or 'droid poppers' - while unlikely to be of much use on the frontlines, for infiltration missions and perhaps even again terror droids they could prove very effective to stun and/or silence.

 

Magpulse busters or 'droid busters' - concussion missiles that detonate five feet of the ground, neutrailising every droid in a fifty metre radius. With sufficient airsupport (which their fighters could provide) this could be very useful in major ground invasions.

 

It was just a gigantic droid popper. Explosion was exactly like it, just a much bigger scale. It wasnt seen again because there was never a large enough droid invasion to warrant it, not like it'd destroy planets, malastare was a special case.

[Beniboybling]

It was just a gigantic droid popper. Explosion was exactly like it, just a much bigger scale. It wasnt seen again because there was never a large enough droid invasion to warrant it, not like it'd destroy planets, malastare was a special case.

The explosion was nothing like that of a droid popper, it merely used the same energy and clearly not a simply case of scaling up the size. Not that that changes the fact that its schematics would have been kept closely confidential. Such a deadly weapon would certainly not have become available on the open-market, especially in a time of war. Edited September 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

The explosion was nothing like that of a droid popper, it merely used the same energy and clearly not a simply case of scaling up the size. Not that that changes the fact that its schematics would have been kept closely confidential. Such a deadly weapon would certainly not have become available on the open-market, especially in a time of war.

The way the droids shut down is the same, as is the way it's explosion expands.

[Beniboybling]

The way the droids shut down is the same, as is the way it's explosion expands.

It used the same energy so obviously it would have the same effect. But the explosion was totally different, droid poppers don't cause massive explosions or huge expanding bubbles of blue energy. Not that I see your point here.

[Selenial]

It used the same energy so obviously it would have the same effect. But the explosion was totally different, droid poppers don't cause massive explosions or huge expanding bubbles of blue energy. Not that I see your point here.

 

Droid poppers explode in very feint bubbles...

 

My point was it wasn't that advanced, due to sharing very similar tech, and was likely used again.

 

The point was there'd be things like it around, if not, conventional bombs work too.

[Beniboybling]

Droid poppers explode in very feint bubbles...

 

My point was it wasn't that advanced, due to sharing very similar tech, and was likely used again.

 

The point was there'd be things like it around, if not, conventional bombs work too.

Nope, they just explode and shock everyone. Simply put, its not just a case of scaling up. The technological components and likely radically different. Given the fact that it was clearly portrayed as an experimental unit that had never been used before. Their certainly wouldn't be similar models lying around.

[Warren-Stride]

Query: How good is the Commerce Guild at acquiring Weapons?

Quite good I'd imagine?

 

The question is, where are they buying them from?

 

If the Commerce Guild doesn't have a weapon in its starting arsenal, it's going to have to buy it from somewhere. And the only place the UB has to trade is Korriban. Last time I checked, Korriban doesn't have a ton of weapon selection. Nar Shaddaa, the DS supply hub, on the other hand, does.

 

Simply put, the DS has access to the Black Market, while the UB does not.

[Beniboybling]

The question is, where are they buying them from?

 

If the Commerce Guild doesn't have a weapon in its starting arsenal, it's going to have to buy it from somewhere. And the only place the UB has to trade is Korriban. Last time I checked, Korriban doesn't have a ton of weapon selection. Nar Shaddaa, the DS supply hub, on the other hand, does.

 

Simply put, the DS has access to the Black Market, while the UB does not.

The Commerce Guild only has the resources of Korriban, but it retains its entire influence, so that means trading contacts and access across the galaxy. They are not simply restricted to Korriban markets, that is merely a base of operations.

 

That is how the suppliers work.

[StarSquirrel]

So are we moving to final arguments/decision or will we give everyone the weekend to see if any more topics come up?

 

Personally I just see this playing out too much like Malugs vs Xizor. G0-T0 has top-quality assassins (three of them) and all the time in the galaxy to hit Malgus. Eventually they'll find something that works and I just don't think Malgus can thoroughly destroy G0-T0 before something tragic happens.