How bad is Annihilation DPS in comparison to Carnage?

[Sonaen]

Good morning,

 

I know annihilation is not quite as good as carnage due to carnage stacks expiring in fights that require a bit of mobility, but I have not seen any numbers. I just can't take it anymore. I realize that this is small but carnage animations are lack luster and uninteresting. lol

 

Thank you,

 

Serralle, 55 Marauder

Sonaen, 55 Assassin

[oofalong]

Annihilation's DPS is not bad at all. There is really only one fight - Titan 6 - where Annihilation severely suffers due to loss of Annihilator stacks, and even this is not guaranteed. (Others might cite Operator IX or Olok the Shadow, but in NM there is rarely downtime.)

 

The problem is that Annihilation doesn't necessarily offer any upside over Carnage right now. (Certainly, the heals are nice, but relying on them is probably indicative of bigger issues.) In other words, Carnage works in nearly every situation and can be used regardless of group tactics. Annihilation does not offer the same benefits, but it is still viable. The world firsts in 8m NM TfB & S&V included Annihilation Marauders.

Edited August 29, 2013 by oofalong

[Sonaen]

Thank you for the quick reply. I appreciate it.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Annihilation's DPS is not bad at all. There is really only one fight - Titan 6 - where Annihilation severely suffers due to loss of Annihilator stacks, and even this is not guaranteed. (Others might cite Operator IX or Olok the Shadow, but in NM there is rarely downtime.)

 

The problem is that Annihilation doesn't necessarily offer any upside over Carnage right now. (Certainly, the heals are nice, but relying on them is probably indicative of bigger issues.) In other words, Carnage works in nearly every situation and can be used regardless of group tactics. Annihilation does not offer the same benefits, but it is still viable. The world firsts in 8m NM TfB & S&V included Annihilation Marauders.

 

I can think of a few upsides of Anni over Carnage!

 

Shorter Range Force Leap, Heals for group (alleviates some of the healer's job during a Berzerk), Anni deals 5k - 6k per hit, Better Rage Management, DoT's Pierce armor, Low Downtime, High Uptime.

[Vitalremainz]

Annihilation is still very powerful despite what is said above on those few bosses is correct. Check out my guild mate Sleen <Chosen> on POTF - Dedicated Anni mara, and holds some of the highest NiM parses. check out Airwolfe and his post for NiM parse rankings on POTF you will see Sleen has some very good parses and in some cases the #1 parse on certain fights. However I switched to Carnage after playing anni for at least a year straight and he makes me doubt my decision ;p. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=668630&highlight=parse

 

look for 16m and youll find Sleen

 

-Strangled <Chosen> Potf - Carnage Marauder 5/36/5

Edited August 29, 2013 by Vitalremainz

[Emperor-Norton]

I can think of a few upsides of Anni over Carnage!

 

Shorter Range Force Leap, Heals for group (alleviates some of the healer's job during a Berzerk), Anni deals 5k - 6k per hit, Better Rage Management, DoT's Pierce armor, Low Downtime, High Uptime.

1. The shorter Range doesn't matter much in PvE (that can't be solved by taking a step back with Carnage). It is more of a disadvantage in PvE since it is meant to be used rotationally so there may be times where you either can't use it (screwing Rage Management) or get to run to the boss.

2. Yet Carnage gets 30% AOE Reduction without sacrificing talent points that help DPS and a 6% Melee Ranged Defense buff which can be as good or better than Heals. That and if your Healers need your heals, you need better Healers.

3. And my Dispatch/Vicious Throw, MS/Ravage, and BS/FS ignore Armor thanks to PS/Gore. So they also hit for more than your Annihilate (and that is if your Annihilate crits)

4. Rage Management isn't a problem if you know what you are doing.

5. See #3.

6. I have no idea what you are saying. But Carnage has better Sustained and can save burst to use in important phases (like when Kephess gets knocked down).

 

I don't really see the point of your post beyond "We have shiny things!" when Carnage has shinier things.

 

I think Oofalong hit the problem with Annihilation on the head. It does nothing Carnage can't do and Carnage can do a lot of things that Annihilation can't. Carnage has burst where Annihilation has ramp up, and Carnage offers better Sustained DPS on top of it. Annihilation is viable in PvE but it isn't optimal, contrary to Bioware's stated intentions and the fact that since 1.2 it has been designed around being solely a PvE spec while Rage is mostly a PvP spec and Carnage can do both.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Emperor-Norton

[TimmehSolo]

Basically, the only thing Anni has over Carnage is the debuff they put on the boss that reduces the damage the boss does. That said, I still believe Carnage is much better in almost every situation.

[Emperor-Norton]

Basically, the only thing Anni has over Carnage is the debuff they put on the boss that reduces the damage the boss does. That said, I still believe Carnage is much better in almost every situation.

I accidentally deleted the first version my post (which mentioned that), but Assassin Tanks also have that debuff and I don't know if they stack.

[kennethdale]

1. The shorter Range doesn't matter much in PvE (that can't be solved by taking a step back with Carnage). It is more of a disadvantage in PvE since it is meant to be used rotationally so there may be times where you either can't use it (screwing Rage Management) or get to run to the boss.

2. Yet Carnage gets 30% AOE Reduction without sacrificing talent points that help DPS and a 6% Melee Ranged Defense buff which can be as good or better than Heals. That and if your Healers need your heals, you need better Healers.

3. And my Dispatch/Vicious Throw, MS/Ravage, and BS/FS ignore Armor thanks to PS/Gore. So they also hit for more than your Annihilate (and that is if your Annihilate crits)

4. Rage Management isn't a problem if you know what you are doing.

5. See #3.

6. I have no idea what you are saying. But Carnage has better Sustained and can save burst to use in important phases (like when Kephess gets knocked down).

 

I don't really see the point of your post beyond "We have shiny things!" when Carnage has shinier things.

 

I think Oofalong hit the problem with Annihilation on the head. It does nothing Carnage can't do and Carnage can do a lot of things that Annihilation can't. Carnage has burst where Annihilation has ramp up, and Carnage offers better Sustained DPS on top of it. Annihilation is viable in PvE but it isn't optimal, contrary to Bioware's stated intentions and the fact that since 1.2 it has been designed around being solely a PvE spec while Rage is mostly a PvP spec and Carnage can do both.

 

I would recommend taking a look at those parses mentioned by airwolfe, I did and it confirmed something I had been thinking about over the last few days. You say annihilation has no burst where Carnage does but the more accurate description is that carnage bursts for less, more often. Look at a perfect world:

 

Perfect Gore window:

VT 10k > Ravage 30k > Scream 9k That's 49k in burst but how often can you actually get everything that perfectly lined up? More often, gore windows are VT 5k > Scream 9k > Massacre 6k x2 which is 26k, nearly half of what it is if everything crits and everything is procced.

 

Annihilation on the other hand has extremely consistent burst. 25k every 30 seconds. Annihilation is much less proc dependant since that burst relies on generating Fury which Annihilation does very consistently. Add to that that no matter HOW good your healers are, an extra 350-400 HPS takes a bit of pressure off of them especially if Berserk can be timed to match up with burst incoming damage phases. Its not a question of needing the extra heals, its merely a question of whether or not they are useful and the answer is always (save for in SM where perhaps it would just become ridiculous how much was overhealed) yes. I am not down playing the usefulness of Carnage, just the idea that it has more utility because aside from leech on Dread guard, extra healing is ALWAYS a good thing.

[oofalong]

Let me clarify my last comment:

 

Annihilation is absolutely viable (and a great choice) for end-game content. As a spec it has some challenges that require specific group tactics (ie allowing you to maintain your Annihilator buff). It is not suited for every role, but it can do many and offers great upside.

 

The other predominant spec for PvE is Carnage and it has become exceedingly popular. This spec offers immediate damage, better AoE (although still weak compared to other classes), and no downside from delays in attacking. This seems to be the most popular spec for Marauders right now. And, there a number of parses that confirm this.

 

Still, there is a difference between combat dummy parses and boss parses so it is important to look at the relevant data. Also, due to Carnage's popularity you will see more high parses for this spec. In reality, you have two excellent choices, but one of them may require your group to adjust to you.

[kennethdale]

Let me clarify my last comment:

 

Annihilation is absolutely viable (and a great choice) for end-game content. As a spec it has some challenges that require specific group tactics (ie allowing you to maintain your Annihilator buff). It is not suited for every role, but it can do many and offers great upside.

 

The other predominant spec for PvE is Carnage and it has become exceedingly popular. This spec offers immediate damage, better AoE (although still weak compared to other classes), and no downside from delays in attacking. This seems to be the most popular spec for Marauders right now. And, there a number of parses that confirm this.

 

Still, there is a difference between combat dummy parses and boss parses so it is important to look at the relevant data. Also, due to Carnage's popularity you will see more high parses for this spec. In reality, you have two excellent choices, but one of them may require your group to adjust to you.

 

The only thing I think you left out is that Annihilation has, for reasons I can't understand, gotten a really bad rap. There is this opinion that Annihilation just can't compete with Carnage, is significantly easier than Carnage, and has very little utility and I am not entirely certain where all of it came from. The way I see it is that yes, there are issues with Annihilation and keeping up buffs but they are no more relevant than the bad RNG that can occasionally plague Carnage. I'll even also admit that comparing playing either at a mediocre level, Annihilation is easier because all you have to do is make sure that at some point after hitting Berserk you hit a bleed, but to play either well requires a lot of skill and practice. Even the up-coming change to Annihilator won't make it any easier, it will simply remove a bit of stress from trying to squeeze those Annihilates in. I don't honestly think those changes will revolutionize Annihilation, its a small QoL buff and that's it. Carnage requires the player to make split second decisions about which ability to use, Annihilation makes you plan your GCDs to ensure you have bleeds running at the right times and that your berserk will fit in well and that you aren't going to lose Annihilator. They're both tough to master, just in different ways.

 

As a side note, something I would LOVE to see for Annihilation is a DoT tracker that gives you a visual display of length and estimated tick times. I would love to be able to time a Berserk to line up so that it was mostly 3x DS with a few Ruptures in the mix but I kind of have to wing it. Might be that I'm just not good enough though. I typically move into mu pre-Berserk rotation at about 18 stacks of fury and do DS>Charge>Rupture>Annihilate>Berserk>Ravage to make it as bursty as possible.

[Vitalremainz]

I think mostly everyone might agree with this, but the simple fact (IMHO) is that it all comes down to the player more than spec for this case in scenario, and this class (excluding rage of course). I believe in one of Oofalongs earlier posts on mmo-mechanics he stated, or debated (cant remember lol) that on the op dummy Carnage parsed maybe 100-200max DPS over Annihilation whereas close to 200 would be an excellent/experienced player or some lucky extremely perfect line-up / gore window / procs / crits etc and that's a dumb dummy not an encounter (lawl).

 

Also I play in a guild with two very exceptional players - Airwolfe - which many people may know from forums and -Sleen- . The both of them are very dedicated to their specs; Carnage and Annihilation respectively. Neither change their spec for any NiM encounter and both of them are usually the #1 and #2 spot in our NiM parses in a 16m guild with very good dps and a F**** ton of competent snipers to compete against. I am the 3rd-ish Mara in the group and I rotate specs depending on encounter although I haven't quite mastered the finer points of carnage yet, but I know from watching these two that really neither spec is more dominant than the other, except for circumstantial mechanics giving one a slight advantage, but that can be said for every DPS class we all have strengths and weaknesses. In the end if you want to play Annihilation then do it. Same for Carnage. As Oofalong said Annihilation is a great choice. But so Is Carnage. It comes down to the player and skillset. Find which spec ' fits ' you better and roll out those Deeps

 

- Strangled - Sith Marauder - Annihilation & Carnage - < Chosen > POTF