Couple of quick carnage questions/clarifications

[iprice]

Rupture should be used instead of massacre only if force scream procs have proccd. there is no gore window up and the massacre buff is applied. Is this correct?

 

Something i have never gotten a clear answer on. Force scream should only be used obviously if its proccd however should it be held for a gore window or used on cd if proccd. Ive been holding it if a gore is within 3 seconds of coming off cd if not then using it is this a dps loss?

 

next to sustain rage while waiting for gore i alternate massacre and assault until i see BA is close to cd then i burn off some rage with a few massacres or rupture and hit BA so i ahve the rage for the gore. Is this how it should be done.

 

Been parsing and hitting 2800-2900 in carnage and i know i should be getting another 150 or so. In full 72s full power build including augs acc at 100.44% surge 74.75% str a little over 2600 power 1850ish

[Ceile]

I did math for most of Carnage's abilities to see how they all compare with given gear. LINK

You can use it yourself to see how everything links up together.

All the values I'm using are AVERAGES with 72s (It's my current gear)

 

Rupture should be used instead of massacre only if force scream procs have proccd. there is no gore window up and the massacre buff is applied. Is this correct?

 

This is what I believe is true. I haven't done the math, but I have heard many people agree with that.

 

Something i have never gotten a clear answer on. Force scream should only be used obviously if its proccd however should it be held for a gore window or used on cd if proccd. Ive been holding it if a gore is within 3 seconds of coming off cd if not then using it is this a dps loss?

 

To get into the hard maths, I'll use the sheet I linked above.

In a Gore Window, Force Scream with Execute does 7.5k, Massacre does 3.8k, and Force Scream does 4.1k.

Force Scream with Execute during Gore does about 3.5k more damage than Massacre. Using it outside the window does about 2.2k more damage (Since armor mitigation is about 35%).

You'd lose about 1.3k damage if you use it outside a window because you can use Force Scream in every Gore Window using a version of TradeLA's rotation.

 

Also, Force Scream is still useful without a proc. It does more damage than Massacre (not including the buff, but using TradeLA's rotation it does more).

 

next to sustain rage while waiting for gore i alternate massacre and assault until i see BA is close to cd then i burn off some rage with a few massacres or rupture and hit BA so i ahve the rage for the gore. Is this how it should be done.

 

You are correct.

You can do some more complicated things like burning rage early on if you notice BA is going to come off CD before Gore. In my own rotation I stick to around 8-10 rage before Gore, you can go lower if you can use BA between Gores or if Execute has proced.

 

Been parsing and hitting 2800-2900 in carnage and i know i should be getting another 150 or so. In full 72s full power build including augs acc at 100.44% surge 74.75% str a little over 2600 power 1850ish

 

I've been parsing similarly. For me, I need to work on streamlining my rotation down since I've been getting too many Slaughters before Gore comes off CD. I haven't parsed recently and haven't done it with an adrenal, but the math agrees with you.

Only suggestions I can make, is looking at the parses on the DPS Leaderboards and see if you can learn anything from them. (One thing I've noticed is some beef up their parses with a second BloodThirst and cut it off right after the second Gore)

[iprice]

It seems like im doing most everything right then just change a couple things around. And i was looking around at alot of parses and not to discount any of the top combat/carnage sents/maras at all. It seems that alot of parses are closer to what i pull and then they get an amazing parse where the RNG gods were completely in there favor and pull alot more out of it. So maybe im just waiting for one of those parses lol.

[xBengeex]

i have a question for you, why should rupture be good in carnage spec? even if the massacre buff is up, massacre is better then rupture because it ALWAYS have a ataru proc damage, i was using rupture before, and i dont now, my rotation is the next one :

 

When pulling (with a burst to start the fight, your tank will probably want to protect you) :

 

Charge jump -> Battering Assault -> Massacre -> Berserk -> Gore (while in CD, same as Berserk) -> Ravage -> Force Scream -> Vicious throw if up, or Massacre

 

with this pull burst, i can pull a really big dps, and for the rest of the fights, i use the Noxxic rotation, i hit around 2500-2800n dps with 69 gear's, what do you think?

[Ceile]

i have a question for you, why should rupture be good in carnage spec? even if the massacre buff is up, massacre is better then rupture because it ALWAYS have a ataru proc damage, i was using rupture before, and i dont now

 

If you already have Execute up, the only benefit you get from Massacre is the boost to ataru procs.

Also, Ataru form procs at that point are only useful for damage.

 

(I haven't done the math myself, but there are some good spreadsheets up around the forums with the damage info)

From everything I've heard, Rupture does more damage than Massacre and it's guaranteed ataru proc. So, if you already have Execute and have time between Gore Windows, then Rupture is the best choice.

It is not useful during Gore Windows because Rupture doesn't benefit from armor penetration, which would increase Massacre's and Ataru's damage by 40-50%.

[paulyWALNUTS]

It's pretty easy, albeit somewhat boring to do, to see a rupture does more damage than a massacre. Go to a dummy, hit rupture, then hit massacre. Wait for cooldown and do it again. Rinse & repeat. You can do it the other way around (massacre first) to get the enhanced ataru proc chance on your rupture, which is how things should be during your normal rotation anyway. To get the best results, remove any proc relics you have. Seeing as during regular rotation you should only use rupture instead of a massacre, and only in between gore windows, there are no other procs/buffs/anything that affect your damage of either skill.

 

Average the numbers, and Rupture (with occasional ataru proc) will come out ahead of massacre + ataru proc. I've done this myself, although not with the greatest number of repeats, and have come to this conclusion.

Edited August 26, 2013 by paulyWALNUTS

[KeyboardNinja]

Rupture does quite a bit more damage than Massacre once you factor in the armor issue and assuming 100% melee accuracy.

 

Massacre assuming external armor debuff:

 

((1 - 0.11) * MH + 0.66 * OH * 0.76 + 0.038 * 2685 + 0.38 * MeleeBonus + (1 - 0.695) * MH) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2))

 

Versus Rupture:

 

((1 - 0.6) * MH * 0.66 * OH * 0.76) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2)) + (0.02 * 2685 + 0.2 * ForceBonus) * 6

 

Let's assume a 72 MH and OH:

 

628.5 damage

1006 force power x2

 

Thus, we have:

 

Mass = ((1 - 0.11) * 628.5 + 0.66 * 628.5 * 0.76 + 0.038 * 2685 + 0.38 * MeleeBonus + (1 - 0.695) * 628.5) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2))

 

Rupture = ((1 - 0.6) * 628.5 * 0.66 * 628.5 * 0.76) * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - 0.2)) + (0.02 * 2685 + 0.2 * (1006 * 2 + MeleeBonus)) * 6

 

When we consider the ratio between the two and simplify, we see the following (where "x" is MeleeBonus damage):

 

1-(0.72 (1168.34 +0.38 x))/(57063.8 +6 (53.7 +0.2 (2012+x)))

 

Assuming a realistic bonus damage range (between 800 and 2k), we can plot this as follows: http://imgur.com/SZku5Fq

 

In other words, Rupture does anywhere from 98.3% to 97.7% more damage than Massacre outside of the armor pen window. The main hang-up is that Rupture has a much lower chance to proc Execute, which is really important. Also, Massacre increases the chance of an Ataru proc for the next few abilities, which means that you should really only use Rupture if you already have this buff up (which you're pretty much guaranteed to have if you're using it in the filler period).

 

Oh, also note that I'm not even including the Ataru proc on Rupture. If I added that in, you would see its damage go up noticeably.

Edited August 27, 2013 by KeyboardNinja