The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[tunewalker]

Ok just a couple things..... that may turn into a long rant.... oh well we will see how it goes.

 

Lightsaber skill and tactical capabilities are not the same thing, so while Anakin lost to Obi-wan it was not because of skill. Obi-wan and most of the order considered Anakin to be the better duelist, but Obi-wan was able to beat him do to better tactics when you take this into account and take into account force power not being a deciding factor we can see that the top saber duelists in the prequel era are in my opinion.

 

 

1. Yoda

2. Windu

3. Sidious

4. Anakin

5. Dooku

6. Obi-wan

 

As Windu and Sidious fought evenly dispite Sidious's greater power in the force and Sidious never truly engaged Yoda in pure saber combat and Yoda was noted as being more skilled then Windu.

 

Now obviously Anakin and Sidious both got better after the prequal era and if I had to place them against I would have Sidious above Windu and Vader just below him. This is when we need to figure out where others place and obviously I still believe Luke is number 1.

 

Now I claimed earlier that Luke was a master of all seven forms by the end of the rebellion era, and I am going to do the best I can to prove it, but first we must examine what a "master" of a form is. Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Greivous, and even Darth Traya are all "masters of all seven forms", yet we rarely see any other form but ataru from yoda, only ever see Vaapad and Djem So from windu, and only ever see Makashi from Dooku. While Greivous and Traya also being masters of all seven forms neither of them have ever taken any of the forms to the Nth degree, none of these people have shown shii-cho mastery to the point of its highest degree having it being highly aggressive, eratic, wild and randomized like Kit Fisto shows and yet they are all still masters of the form, for mastery of the first form all that is required is mastery of the basics of Lightsaber combat as that is was the first form is. This being said let us begin.

 

 

First his known style in the movies according to the article in Star wars Insider called " Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat" where the forms were first introduced is a Mirror Vader's style which is Djem So with elements of all seven forms with it. For Vader the most heavily featured forms in his Djem So style were Makashi, Juyo, and Ataru showing his very aggressive nature, Luke had the same Djem So style (having elements from all seven forms of combat) but had made it his own by having an even larger feature of Ataru, and also largely featuring Soresu, utilizing his superior youth and agility and taking a more jedi defensive approach then Vader, he was still noted as mastering Vader's form, he just utilized it differently retooling Vader's form to suit his needs.

 

 

Luke mastered Form 1 very near the beginning he of course began this while obi-wan was still alive while on the way to alderaan. He showed his mastery of this form 2 months after blowing up the first death star when he used his lightsaber to bring down a Tie fighter, he received additional training in this form in the same way the creators of the form did by using the basics of vibro sword fighting for lightsaber combat, there were many special forces members that Luke worked with and all of them were trained to use vibro blades he would have learned the basics of sword fighting from them to learn Shii-Cho.

 

 

The next form he would have master would have been Niman, since this, like Form 1, was also originally a sword fighting technique of the same name (Niman and Niman duel blade, also known as Jar'kai). These sword fighting techniques would be all Luke had access to for until 1 ABY. Luke showed his mastery of Niman in 4 ABY a month after the death of Vader by easily defeating Lumiya with a shoto saber as well as his standard length showing his mastery Niman duel blade, with his noted use of elements of all forms in his single blade combat this essentially confirms his mastery of Niman by 4 ABY.

 

 

In 1 ABY Luke ran across the Kybr crystal and had his first duel with Darth Vader, it was here that while under the effects of the crystal Luke would instinctively pick of Djem So and some of vader's style, for the next 2 years he would be refining these first 3 forms before meeting yoda.

 

 

In 3 ABY Luke met Yoda and begun training under him one of the primary things Yoda was teaching him was how to use the force to enhance your body and to increase his speed and agility in all different ways running, jumping, and flipping as well as utilizing his balance to stand on one hand. Luke may not have had a saber in his hands but with his learning curve and the way he applies these force techniques Yoda taught him, yoda essentially taught him Ataru. Think to yourself if you had no saber training beyond Shii-cho and were given the training yoda gave Luke and when you went to face a Dark lord of the sith were told to use what you had learned and that it could save you, what form would you most likely end up using? Ataru. So again this is what Luke would be training with over the next year since he could in some way continue training it with out a lightsaber. Also I have already shown that he had mastered both Niman and Shii-cho by RotJ why would he feature more from a form he didn't have mastered then a form he did, this suggests the he did indeed master Ataru. Luke never used this form alone save for one instance in 11 ABY when he guided the hand of then 2 year old Jacen Solo showing him how to use his saber the moves Jacen were using were described similar to Ataru and the perpose of the form being used was the same as Yoda's reason for using it to make up for Jacen's small stature and lack of reach. Though we never see him use it alone before or after this it doesn't mean he didn't master it long before since we never see Yoda use any form other then Ataru in practice yet he was still considered a master of all seven forms.

 

During Shadow's of the Empire Luke was at one point described as creating a curtain of protection with his blade and deflecting blasters from 15 different shooters, the only known form able to handle that much fire power (to my knowledge) is Soresu showing his mastery of Soresu, further more Soresu is the basis of Djem So and in his particular amalgamation he is noted for heavily featuring Soresu to think that he would not be a master of Soresu based on this information is an insult to all Form V users every where.

 

Makashi, this is going to be the most circumstantial of them, but he is still noted for using elements of Makashi in his movements in the movies, as well as his shown mastery of Niman when he dueled Lumiya and to master Niman you would have to master the basics of forms I-V showing that Luke had at least that much before the end of the Rebelion era. In addition to this Djem so is noted as "Soresu applied with a Makashi mentality" so by this we show that Luke had mastered many of Makshi's elements as well as its basics and its Mentallity meaning there wasn't much left to go to master the rest of it.

 

Finally it was noted that he didn't have much time between ESB and RotJ to train, but this is incorrect shadows of the empire still ended 6 months before the rescue at jabba's palace (not including the epilogue) as it was still 1 year after ESB and only 2 months had past before the start of the book. There is no way the events of the book took more then 4 months at max to complete meaning it still took them waiting a considerable amount of time for their preperations to save han all to be made. To top all this off in the book after his saber is finished we do see him training with it, this again would have given him enough time to train with Kenobi's book.

 

 

I can not prove that Luke used the full Form VII till the Yuzong Vong war, while he was noted as using elements of it before hand there is no proof of his full mastery until that war. The proof of his full mastery was the description of how his fighting looked to the Solo twins, he was described as moving as if he wielded 20 lightsabers as he cut down dozens of Vong warriors all the while remaining calm, this part is likely not going to be accepted but I have never seen such a description given to any other fighter or form other then Windu's Vaapad. We know that Luke had access to Holocrons that were discovered all over the place and that the holocrons held information on everything in the history of the Jedi including Windu's Vaapad, considering this would be in 28 ABY and how much Luke had mastered himself by this point it is not impossible to believe that Luke could have mastered this as well.

 

 

All this being said this is far more shown in combat proof of his useage of all seven forms then can be said for most any other noted "masters of all seven forms" as they generally only use 1 or 2 forms in actual combat situations in their entire shown history even though they are supposed "masters of all seven forms".

 

Also Vader was the killing machine version when Luke fought him, the version of Vader when he is at his best is angry, focused and tactically sound. This is exactly what he was when he fought Luke, rather then recklessly jump up to Luke he threw his saber not allowing Luke to keep the high ground, in the book when Luke hid among the pillars Vader initially refused to go in saying he wasn't going to give Luke the edge that easily, it was only when Luke rolled his saber out and Vader telekinetically grabbed it and linked it to his belt did Vader go into the area to look for Luke and yet he still did so Cautiously, Vader didn't lose because of circumstantial stuff or do to a tactical failing, he lost because he wasn't as skilled or as powerful as his son, which is exactly why Sidious wanted Luke so badly he was ready to replace Vader just as he had been ready to replace Dooku.

 

 

When he fought Sidious the second time (to my knowledge) and his sister was watching, and using battle meditation, Luke and Sidious were described similarly to the way Yoda and Sidious were described in RotS novel. One as a powerful radiant light and the other as this massive power of Dark clashing, Luke was able to defeat Sidious in a pure lightsaber duel but needed his sister to help him defeat sidious dark side powers and to stop the Force Storm and sever Sidious's force to finish him off for good. Showing that he was the superior duelist to Sidious despite being slightly weaker in the force, from my understanding the reason Luke lost the first duel was partially circumstantial he was still using the dark side and Sidious used the Dun Mach tactic to get under Luke's skin and off balance his focus, this didn't happen the second time with him using the Light side and not allowing himself to be distracted by Sidious's Dun Mach tactic.

 

 

In addition to all this with Alex's information about Luke deflecting blasters while under the effects of ysalmari and the knowledge that Luke would continue to improve I truly do not see how Luke in his best could not be # 1 saber duelist.

 

 

 

 

 

OK that went much longer then it should have, I don't expect half of this stuff to be taken seriously no matter how many sources I pull out of my butt because at the end of the day Luke being more then a powerhouse brute in the rebellion era or even long after goes against the very principle many here seem to think, and I could link sources or quote book after book and I do not think any of that will go away just wanted to give my full information as to why I believe what I do, based off what showings and what confirmed information I could find.

 

 

 

Edit: I should just stop.... no one should have to read such a long post here for the TL/DR crowd, Luke #1.

Edited August 8, 2013 by tunewalker

[TalonVII]

In reply to tune. You seriously think using a style for 4 months or less regardless of force aptitude makes a master in a specific style of force combat. No mastery comes over YEARS. Same with martial arts. You become a master of a style when you don't have to do katas, or train, or still learning. You do it by just thinking, they are so ingrained that you don't even contentiously know you are doing a move till after it's done.

 

Luke did not have that kind of mastery by RoTJ. I'll give you he was probably at user status with Shien/djem so and Ataru, and probably Soresu from reading Obi-wan's journals. But mastery, no, he had no clue the philosophy behind each, hell he'd barely BEGUN to learn about saber combat. No at best he had rudementary knowledge with raw talent with a saber. I'd give him he was a user of each, but mastery, he was FAR from mastery. Hell he didn't even figure out he was a jedi knight till he turned from the darkside and discovered it for himself when he declared himself a Jedi before the emperor.

 

And you're going to claim he mastered atleast 3 forms of lightsaber combat in about a year when most take upwards of 5-10 years just to master 1 style of combat. Many take near a lifetime to master a form of combat.

 

No, Luke hadn't even mastered HIMSELF let alone lightsaber combat.

[tunewalker]

In reply to tune. You seriously think using a style for 4 months or less regardless of force aptitude makes a master in a specific style of force combat. No mastery comes over YEARS. Same with martial arts. You become a master of a style when you don't have to do katas, or train, or still learning. You do it by just thinking, they are so ingrained that you don't even contentiously know you are doing a move till after it's done.

 

Luke did not have that kind of mastery by RoTJ. I'll give you he was probably at user status with Shien/djem so and Ataru, and probably Soresu from reading Obi-wan's journals. But mastery, no, he had no clue the philosophy behind each, hell he'd barely BEGUN to learn about saber combat. No at best he had rudementary knowledge with raw talent with a saber. I'd give him he was a user of each, but mastery, he was FAR from mastery. Hell he didn't even figure out he was a jedi knight till he turned from the darkside and discovered it for himself when he declared himself a Jedi before the emperor.

 

And you're going to claim he mastered atleast 3 forms of lightsaber combat in about a year when most take upwards of 5-10 years just to master 1 style of combat. Many take near a lifetime to master a form of combat.

 

No, Luke hadn't even mastered HIMSELF let alone lightsaber combat.

 

"honed to a thoughts breadth" was what Vader described his skill and timing as and as you said, "you are a master when you can do it just by thinking It", well Luke started doing all of it before he thought it he felt it so his reaction was faster then thought by your definition he would have been a master of each of the forms I said. You don't beat Vader in pure saber combat by being an amateur. Luke was also said to have "mastered Saber combat faster then any one prior" like I said many will never agree with me regardless of the number of cannon sources I use.

Edited August 8, 2013 by tunewalker

[TalonVII]

"honed to a thoughts breadth" was what Vader described his skill and timing as and as you said, "you are a master when you can do it just by thinking It", well Luke started doing all of it before he thought it he felt it so his reaction was faster then thought by your definition he would have been a master of each of the forms I said. You don't beat Vader in pure saber combat by being an amateur. Luke was also said to have "mastered Saber combat faster then any one prior" like I said many will never agree with me regardless of the number of cannon sources I use.

 

That is not mastery. Mastery means you master EVERYTHING about the form. Not just it's techniques, but the reason behind those techniques, philosophy, mastering yourself as you master the style. Answer me this, had Luke even mastered himself?

 

No, and I'll tell you why. Had he mastered himself, he'd never of attacked Vader in that rage and slipped that closely to the dark side. A real master would of just let that slide right off his shoulders and defeated vader not out of hatred, but because it needed to be done to stop the darkness and evil.

 

Again, you cannot master a style until you master yourself first. Luke hadn't mastered anything yet. Why I don't consider him to have mastered anything by the time of RoTJ. Hell he was a neophyte jedi. Hell read the books of the Thrawn Trilogy. He didn't even know how to resolve things peacefully as a jedi with minor disputes, something that is a cornerstone of being a jedi.

 

And if you think about it, Luke really didn't teach the jedi good practices as time went on. Cause in the later books, Dalla is right about one thing. A jedi could literally walk into a bar, stop the fight by cutting off 3 arms, say a few terse lines to planet security/police then waltz away with no consequences when a security agent who did the same thing would be lucky if he didn't face sanctions.

 

No, you can quote me 100 different ways, I'll say the same thing. Luke hadn't mastered ANYTHING yet. Hell when Obi-wan beat Maul in Ep 1,he hadn't mastered ataru yet[and never did either] yet he beat Maul. Don't have to be a master to defeat a master.

 

Saying among swordsmen. You don't fear the second best swordsman. You fear the worst, cause you can never predict what the fool will do.

[tunewalker]

That is not mastery. Mastery means you master EVERYTHING about the form. Not just it's techniques, but the reason behind those techniques, philosophy, mastering yourself as you master the style. Answer me this, had Luke even mastered himself?

 

No, and I'll tell you why. Had he mastered himself, he'd never of attacked Vader in that rage and slipped that closely to the dark side. A real master would of just let that slide right off his shoulders and defeated vader not out of hatred, but because it needed to be done to stop the darkness and evil.

 

Again, you cannot master a style until you master yourself first. Luke hadn't mastered anything yet. Why I don't consider him to have mastered anything by the time of RoTJ. Hell he was a neophyte jedi. Hell read the books of the Thrawn Trilogy. He didn't even know how to resolve things peacefully as a jedi with minor disputes, something that is a cornerstone of being a jedi.

 

And if you think about it, Luke really didn't teach the jedi good practices as time went on. Cause in the later books, Dalla is right about one thing. A jedi could literally walk into a bar, stop the fight by cutting off 3 arms, say a few terse lines to planet security/police then waltz away with no consequences when a security agent who did the same thing would be lucky if he didn't face sanctions.

 

No, you can quote me 100 different ways, I'll say the same thing. Luke hadn't mastered ANYTHING yet. Hell when Obi-wan beat Maul in Ep 1,he hadn't mastered ataru yet[and never did either] yet he beat Maul. Don't have to be a master to defeat a master.

 

Saying among swordsmen. You don't fear the second best swordsman. You fear the worst, cause you can never predict what the fool will do.

 

Obi-wan was known for mastering Ataru, that is a cannon fact that can not even be begun to be disputed, and byyour definition I guess no sith makes this list, mastery of self is not required for mastery of form if it was then "Juyo" would not be a lightsaber form as with out Vaapad it wouldn't be complete, simply put your wrong on every conceivable level since by your definition no sith could ever be a master of anything, Maul, Dooku, Sidious would also fall under the category you are talking about this is just ridiculous.

[crqp]

Yoda was more skilled than Mace Windu, despite what the film shows. In the book Sidious aka Palpatine was letting Windu get the edge, so as to push Anakin over the edge. so for me it's:-

1. Jedi Grandmaster Luke Skywalker
   
2. Darth Sidious aka Emperor Palatine
   
3. Master Yoda
   
4. Master Mace Windu
   

 

I disagree Emperor Palpatine did not use his lightsaber much he used the force so i think it is

1 Luke Skywalker

2 Darth Vader

3 Master Yoda

4 Mace Windu

[TalonVII]

Obi-wan was known for mastering Ataru, that is a cannon fact that can not even be begun to be disputed, and byyour definition I guess no sith makes this list, mastery of self is not required for mastery of form if it was then "Juyo" would not be a lightsaber form as with out Vaapad it wouldn't be complete, simply put your wrong on every conceivable level since by your definition no sith could ever be a master of anything, Maul, Dooku, Sidious would also fall under the category you are talking about this is just ridiculous.

 

No sith can master themselves. Hell dooku while drawing on the darkside was in total control of himself. Maul was focused through his rage. And yes that is perflectly possible. Obi-wan mastering Ataru? Where is that shown. It was said, even by himself, he was working on ataru, but after watching Qui-gon be taken down because Ataru had exhausted Qui-gon he abandoned Ataru and switched to soresu. Obi-wan never mastered Ataru.

 

Here let me break it down further using martial arts belts.

 

Obi-wan in Ataru: Brown belt. Very good at it, but never achieved mastery. Soresu: Blackbelt 5th degree or better. Even mace in the novelization said "you are not a master of soresu, you are THE master of Soresu."

 

Luke during the movies:

Shi-cho: Red belt. I'd give you he knew the basics and that's form 1.

Soresu: Brown/Blue belt: Not quite as advanced as Shi-cho, but he knew enough by RoTJ to block blaster bolts even from a speeder, that takes one heck of amount of skill. HOWEVER during the fight on Jabba's palace, he got nailed by a single blaster bolt on his saber hand. Obi-wan would of never been hit by a shot like that.

Ataru: Purple belt. Knew a few advanced moves and some things he did on the fly, but he was no master like Yoda, not even CLOSE.

Shien/Djem-so: Red belt. Yes he knew a lot, and picked up alot while dueling his father. but one thing about his father even. There were moves that before Vader was put in the suit could do, and do so fluidly it was like watching a dancer. Years later in the Vader suit, he was restricted from doing certain moves in form V. So his style was actually incomplete. Fighting against that, Luke's mirror style of Vader by default is ALSO incomplete.

 

I also contest it wasn't until later when Luke found HOLOCRONS about lightsaber combat that he actually achieved full mastery of all forms of lightsaber combat. When he could absorb not only the techniques, but the reasons and philosophy behind them.

 

Also you're saber styles are incomplete. Nimian is a single sword combat style. Jer'kai which falls under form 6[and IMO they REALLY need to redo the numbers on lightsaber combat since I consider Shien and Djem-so to be two different forms of combat. There are in my book about 13 forms of combat] is the two saber style. So actually Luke started to learn Jer'kai with the Shoto, but remember when he fought Lumiya it was actually YEARS after RoTJ. So he had time to find holocrons detailing lightsaber combat.

 

Again, Luke was probably a pretty advanced user of the forms, but he was no master of them by the time of RoTJ. Hell he probably didn't know any of the advanced moves or very few of them for each style.

[tunewalker]

No sith can master themselves. Hell dooku while drawing on the darkside was in total control of himself. Maul was focused through his rage. And yes that is perflectly possible. Obi-wan mastering Ataru? Where is that shown. It was said, even by himself, he was working on ataru, but after watching Qui-gon be taken down because Ataru had exhausted Qui-gon he abandoned Ataru and switched to soresu. Obi-wan never mastered Ataru.

 

Here let me break it down further using martial arts belts.

 

Obi-wan in Ataru: Brown belt. Very good at it, but never achieved mastery. Soresu: Blackbelt 5th degree or better. Even mace in the novelization said "you are not a master of soresu, you are THE master of Soresu."

 

Luke during the movies:

Shi-cho: Red belt. I'd give you he knew the basics and that's form 1.

Soresu: Brown/Blue belt: Not quite as advanced as Shi-cho, but he knew enough by RoTJ to block blaster bolts even from a speeder, that takes one heck of amount of skill. HOWEVER during the fight on Jabba's palace, he got nailed by a single blaster bolt on his saber hand. Obi-wan would of never been hit by a shot like that.

Ataru: Purple belt. Knew a few advanced moves and some things he did on the fly, but he was no master like Yoda, not even CLOSE.

Shien/Djem-so: Red belt. Yes he knew a lot, and picked up alot while dueling his father. but one thing about his father even. There were moves that before Vader was put in the suit could do, and do so fluidly it was like watching a dancer. Years later in the Vader suit, he was restricted from doing certain moves in form V. So his style was actually incomplete. Fighting against that, Luke's mirror style of Vader by default is ALSO incomplete.

 

I also contest it wasn't until later when Luke found HOLOCRONS about lightsaber combat that he actually achieved full mastery of all forms of lightsaber combat. When he could absorb not only the techniques, but the reasons and philosophy behind them.

 

Also you're saber styles are incomplete. Nimian is a single sword combat style. Jer'kai which falls under form 6[and IMO they REALLY need to redo the numbers on lightsaber combat since I consider Shien and Djem-so to be two different forms of combat. There are in my book about 13 forms of combat] is the two saber style. So actually Luke started to learn Jer'kai with the Shoto, but remember when he fought Lumiya it was actually YEARS after RoTJ. So he had time to find holocrons detailing lightsaber combat.

 

Again, Luke was probably a pretty advanced user of the forms, but he was no master of them by the time of RoTJ. Hell he probably didn't know any of the advanced moves or very few of them for each style.

 

The first time he fought Lumiya was before the New republic was established in the Nagai-Tof War in 4 ABY mere months after vader died he created his shoto saber then and defeated her, she survived and they wouldn't face off again for many years but their first encounter and his showing of mastery of Niman duel blade was within months of vader's death.

 

Obi-wan changed his style to Soresu, but still mastered Ataru to compliment it he didn't stop training Ataru.

 

A sith uses his emotions and is powered by passion and greed this is not an enlightened individual thus they could not master them selves.

 

Vader was a greater sword master after he was put in his suit then before he had to refine his technique and became better for it.

 

 

Again Traya who is described as being " a mere child in comparison to the old masters" and would likely have no chance against the true masters of the Golden era is still known as a "master of all seven forms" like I said you don't need to be Yoda to master Ataru, you don't need to be Windu to be a master of Form VII you don't need to be Dooku to be a master of form II you don't even need a degree of mastery that is even remotely close to them to be considered a master of that form. What I posted Luke showing is enough to be considered a master of each of those forms that is all that's required to be a master of those forms nothing more.

 

Vader was a master of all seven forms, this is also a cannon fact as well as one of the greatest practitioners of form V so saying his Form V was lacking is purely incorrect.

Edited August 8, 2013 by tunewalker

[TalonVII]

Read the Book Rise of Lord Vader. In it, even Vader himself says that he can no longer do the moves he used to do and his form V style of fighting was indeed imperfect like it used to be because of how his new body parts restricted his movements. You are just seeing "mastered" so he can do anything. Actually Vader couldn't for several reasons, the previous being one of the BIGGEST. He simply could not do some of the advanced maneuvers he could once do. Yes he mastered the things about the saber combat, but he couldn't actually DO THEM. That's your stumbling block for Vader right there.

 

Far as Luke in RoTJ. Where did he show mastery of ANY form. No he showed he knew the basics and knew them well. When he leaped up then backflipped onto the upper level, that's simply a normal Jedi Knight level skill. That does not show mastery. Far as Djem so, that kick to the chest that looks a lot like Anakin's kick to Dooku's chest in #3, again basic to intermediate move. No real mastery. Want to see mastery of form V, the way anakin fought in Revenge of the sith. Same for mastery of Soresu, or mastery of ataru. You say luke mastered Ataru, did he even come close to fighting like Obi-wan did in Phantom Menace? Or how his father did during his fight with Dooku, or fight with Obi-wan?

 

No, Luke showed absolutely no advanced fighting style or techniques. He showed some intermediate fighting style you'd expect from a jedi knight, but he hadn't mastered the styles yet. He just showed he knew the basics and some higher moves and knew them well. That is a good basis for BEGINNING to master the styles, but he didn't show ANY higher form of mastery. No.

 

And his shoto and lumyia. Brilliant tactic and he fought well for never having fought with two sabers but again, basically taking what he already knew, adapting it, and knowing the basics and some higher maneuvers, but again, creating something and then using it in battle does not make a master. It takes HOURS, hell hundreds of hours, months YEARS, to gain that kind of mastery. You think Yoda was fighting like he did on day one? No it took him probably DECADES to learn to fight like that, same with Mace. Hell think Obi-wan just one day "hmm I'm going to master Soresu, ok learned to fight in it, now I am master of it." No, it took YEARS of fighting, hell he hadn't even mastered it by the time he fought Dooku the first time.

 

No you just don't pick up a style, then suddenly turn around in master in a matter of hours. Don't work like that. Force or not. Just showing you can do it, does not mean you have mastered it. Be like a white belt in karate learning how to do an advanced kick and suddenly he's a black belt according to you.

[AlexDougherty]

I disagree Emperor Palpatine did not use his lightsaber much he used the force so i think it is

1 Luke Skywalker

2 Darth Vader

3 Master Yoda

4 Mace Windu

 

It is true that Sidious/Palpatine preferred to use the force, however it is also canon that he was a master lightsaber duellist, he mastered the seven known forms and was more than capable with a lightsaber.

[AlexDougherty]

That is not mastery. Mastery means you master EVERYTHING about the form. Not just it's techniques, but the reason behind those techniques, philosophy, mastering yourself as you master the style. Answer me this, had Luke even mastered himself?.

 

While I agree that Luke hadn't mastered all the forms by ROTJ, I have to disagree with your definition of mastery.

 

To master a form you have to understand the moves and stances, and the reason behind the techniques, and be able to perform them without thinking. You do have to learn to master yourself, in so much as emotional and physical control is mastery.

 

But you don't have to master the philosophies behind the form, if you did Westerners could never master martial arts (few do, but this is more down to the fact that the high level teachers live in the east, and until very recently refused to train any westerner). The philosophies help you understand how the form came into being, but don't help you master the form (except when learning the basics). The idea of a philosopher warrior is beguiling, but if you are concentrating of the intangables, then you are missing the realities of the techniques, which could get you killed in a real fight.

Edited August 8, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Aurbere]

Talon. Obi-Wan Kenobi is stated as a master of Ataru in the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary.

[TalonVII]

Talon. Obi-Wan Kenobi is stated as a master of Ataru in the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary.

 

Huh, well I hadn't seen that one, so forgive me for not knowing enough master -bows-

[TalonVII]

While I agree that Luke hadn't mastered all the forms by ROTJ, I have to disagree with your definition of mastery.

 

To master a form you have to understand the moves and stances, and the reason behind the techniques, and be able to perform them without thinking. You do have to learn to master yourself, in so much as emotional and physical control is mastery.

 

But you don't have to master the philosophies behind the form, if you did Westerners could never master martial arts (few do, but this is more down to the fact that the high level teachers live in the east, and until very recently refused to train any westerner). The philosophies help you understand how the form came into being, but don't help you master the form (except when learning the basics). The idea of a philosopher warrior is beguiling, but if you are concentrating of the intangables, then you are missing the realities of the techniques, which could get you killed in a real fight.

 

Well I was actually going more towards what you were saying, I guess I just didn't phrase it right. But in all seriousness, even though it slightly goes off topic, best I've ever seen about mastery of any kind of fighting, read the Honor Harrington series. Watch how David Webber explains when Honor or two other people are fighting in the made up fighting style Coup de visse. It is literally the best explanation of mastering a fighting style in words I have seen yet. Explains it ways I can't even hope of matching.

 

But you are absolutely correct Alex.

[Aurbere]

Huh, well I hadn't seen that one, so forgive me for not knowing enough master -bows-

 

Don't fail me again

[TalonVII]

Don't fail me again

 

yes my master

[Beniboybling]

OK, lets try and get a handle on this debate shall we?

 

Anyway, the candidates for #1 seem to currently be - Windu, Yoda & Luke.

 

Now I personally am sticking with Windu, he mastered all seven lightsaber forms and on top of that mastered Vaapad, which no other duelist has ever achieved mastery over. Effectively making him the most learned lightsaber duelists in the lightsaber forms - his knowledge is unparalleled. And I'd say the very nature of Vaapad speaks for his mastery.

 

Luke, I would assume, mastered all seven lightsaber forms by the point of his prime and had a remarkable aptitude for lightsaber combat. However I would like to see some evidence of him mastering the forms by the time he faced Vader. And by evidence I being canon quotes, I'm not interested in theory-crafting and speculation.

 

Yoda, supposedly, is a greater master than Windu. Yet we should ask ourselves whether he surpassed Windu through superior lightsaber skill or simply superior Force ability. After all Yoda only ever demonstrated a conventional mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

I like to here everyone's opinions - and reasons - on #1 and only #1.

[Aurbere]

Here's the Shadow Hunter quote.

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

[tunewalker]

OK, lets try and get a handle on this debate shall we?

 

Anyway, the candidates for #1 seem to currently be - Windu, Yoda & Luke.

 

Now I personally am sticking with Windu, he mastered all seven lightsaber forms and on top of that mastered Vaapad, which no other duelist has ever achieved mastery over. Effectively making him the most learned lightsaber duelists in the lightsaber forms - his knowledge is unparalleled. And I'd say the very nature of Vaapad speaks for his mastery.

 

Luke, I would assume, mastered all seven lightsaber forms by the point of his prime and had a remarkable aptitude for lightsaber combat. However I would like to see some evidence of him mastering the forms by the time he faced Vader. And by evidence I being canon quotes, I'm not interested in theory-crafting and speculation.

 

Yoda, supposedly, is a greater master than Windu. Yet we should ask ourselves whether he surpassed Windu through superior lightsaber skill or simply superior Force ability. After all Yoda only ever demonstrated a conventional mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

I like to here everyone's opinions - and reasons - on #1 and only #1.

 

Well supposedly according to the article "Fight saber" in Star wars Insider 62 which Lightsaber combat was first brought to the public, Luke was a Master of Soresu, Ataru, and Djem So by RotJ and had a working knowledge of all other forms of combat, personally I think any one who has a mastery of the basics is a master of form 1 but I could be wrong, and I consider his fight with Lumiya a month a later to be a clear display that while RotJ Luke had not mastered Niman duel blade, Rebellion Era Luke had mastered Niman duel blade still decades before his prime. Which is all I have really been saying anyway I believed that Luke had a mastery of all seven forms because he was able to work elements of all the forms into his style just like Vader and I figured doing so you had to be a master of all the forms u borrowed elements from otherwise you wouldn't know what elements to borrow, but the only cannon forms I can find that Luke mastered in RotJ is 3, 4, and 5 with 6 being mastered a month later.

[AlexDougherty]

OK, lets try and get a handle on this debate shall we?

 

Anyway, the candidates for #1 seem to currently be - Windu, Yoda & Luke.

 

Now I personally am sticking with Windu, he mastered all seven lightsaber forms and on top of that mastered Vaapad, which no other duelist has ever achieved mastery over. Effectively making him the most learned lightsaber duelists in the lightsaber forms - his knowledge is unparalleled. And I'd say the very nature of Vaapad speaks for his mastery.

 

Luke, I would assume, mastered all seven lightsaber forms by the point of his prime and had a remarkable aptitude for lightsaber combat. However I would like to see some evidence of him mastering the forms by the time he faced Vader. And by evidence I being canon quotes, I'm not interested in theory-crafting and speculation.

 

Yoda, supposedly, is a greater master than Windu. Yet we should ask ourselves whether he surpassed Windu through superior lightsaber skill or simply superior Force ability. After all Yoda only ever demonstrated a conventional mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

I like to here everyone's opinions - and reasons - on #1 and only #1.

 

Well Yoda is hard to do, it's my feeling that his force abilities merely make up for his size, allowing his skill to come to the fore, but it's hard to prove.

 

Mace Windu is certainly in contention, his beating Sidious is a strong indication of his skill, and the fact that Vaapad allows him to go toe to toe with stronger users gives him an edge.

 

Darth Sidious aka Emperor Palpatine also has to be in the running, yes he was mostly focused on force abilities, but it has to be remembered that he was a strong duellist in his youth. During his Apprenticeship to Darth Plagueis, he mastered the seven forms available to him (Vaapad the eigth form having not been invented), and could fight with the best of them. But as with Yoda it's hard to say how much of his skill was augmented by his force abilities.

 

Finally Luke Skywalker is also a strong contender, as I have said before, he is the only person to have shown skill in the absence of the force (Ysalmari). He also fought the Emperor reborn in a lightsaber duel, and won, admittedly the emperor reborn was not quite the same as the original Emperor, but he still had the same memories and skill with a lightsaber, although he was weakened at the time.

It could be argued that Leia was augmenting his skill with battle meditation at the time, but I think it's more likely that it was all she could do to help shield Luke's mind. Finally he grew even more skilled by the time he became the Jedi Grandmaster, admittedly the Lightsaber was his last resort, and never his most skilled area, but he was still extremely skilled.

 

I know I'm focusing on Luke, but he is the character I know the most about (Jediwise, Han and Leia are also in the books I've read), and I'm not disregarding the others, just leaving others with more knowledge to argue for them.

Edited August 9, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

Here's the Shadow Hunter quote.

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

There are a quite a few more two:

 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

 

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

 

So perhaps we should consider Yoda a canonically superior lightsaber duelist to Windu. Though that still leaves the question of Luke Skywalker... who achieved mastery over all seven lightsaber forms far faster than Yoda.

 

In fact if Yoda is a greater duelist than Windu then it is possible that conventional mastery over the seven lightsaber forms can surpass mastery over all aspects of the lightsaber, including Vaapad. And it can certainly be said that Skywalker is the greatest master over the seven lightsaber forms.

[Selenial]

Dooku Vs Sidious is another to discuss...

But if you only want #1

[Beniboybling]

Dooku Vs Sidious is another to discuss...

But if you only want #1

Sidious trashes Dooku with trollmastery.

[tunewalker]

There are a quite a few more two:

 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

 

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

 

So perhaps we should consider Yoda a canonically superior lightsaber duelist to Windu. Though that still leaves the question of Luke Skywalker... who achieved mastery over all seven lightsaber forms far faster than Yoda.

 

In fact if Yoda is a greater duelist than Windu then it is possible that conventional mastery over the seven lightsaber forms can surpass mastery over all aspects of the lightsaber, including Vaapad. And it can certainly be said that Skywalker is the greatest master over the seven lightsaber forms.

 

essentially why I think it should be 1. Luke like we had it originally.

[Selenial]

Sidious trashes Dooku with trollmastery.

 

Sidious is great, mastered all dem forms, but Dookus was so Obscure, and incredible effective...

 

Quite a Smexeh style really