The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[AlexDougherty]

Do you have some sources for this? As far as G-canon is concerned at least, Yoda quite clearly prefers to use the Force, after all.

 

Actually I would have said Yoda prefered neither, he responded with what was most appropriate, prefering neither. And G-Canon puts Yoda as the pre-eminent duelist in the entire order, nobody was more skilled with the lightsaber than Yoda.

 

With all respect, most of the following posts seemed to be countering that post. Is there any agreement on your points from those posters further on? Otherwise it seems like the analysis only has as much weight as you yourself put on it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know if the other main contributers to the thread agree with you.

We have 30+ pages before Beni put his foot down, that's not ignoring other peoples opinions, and if you read all the way through, then you'll notice that Beni changed his mind based on other peoples posts several times. I think we can say with confidence that Beni listened to everyone.

 

Well, that said, the effectiveness of the Dark Side on the Jedi is...well it only applies in certain instances. This may be due in part to the fact that a lot of EU was written before the Prequels, but the Dark Side having that sort of latent suppression is very inconsistent, and at least as far as G-canon goes to override it, we're not really given a clear answer as to whether the Dark Side suppression is a repeating thing or an isolated incident during the Clone Wars. So connecting war = weak Jedi is, at least from my perspective, a fairly flimsy and inconsistent point that shouldn't be given too much weight. There's also an argument to be made that the Dark Side only influenced the greater Force and the foresight and precognition of the Order, as at least going by the movies the Jedi hardly seem crippled while fighting and using the Living Force, but that's never made clear (at least as far as I know). Still, it's worth considering, because the evidence seems somewhat contrary to the statement made in some circumstances.

Yes, but this thread is about lightsaber skill, these may be considerations if force strength was a factor, but in this thread it isn't, it's just about how skilled with the lightsaber they were, that's the fist and only factor.

 

Historical context is, however, hugely important. As you pointed out yourself, the Jedi neglected several lightsaber forms, and defensive forms like Soresu and Niman became much more mainstream. However, other forms became neglected - so the theory behind those forms still existed, but to say that the Jedi of that era enjoyed unparalleled mastery of all forms based on the prior knowledge of their forebears is erroneous - as certain forms fell into disuse, so to does the degree of mastery of those forms. Knowledge is not a linear improvement, especially when said knowledge is concerning practical application of something like a lightsaber form. I would argue that the stagnation of knowledge on forms such as Makashi is what helped lead them to be so effective against Jedi of the era, but that's another argument, and admittedly based on speculation, so I won't go into that right now.

 

Ultimately I think that the era a Jedi is in makes a world of difference as to what they learn and how well they learn it. In the time of the Prequels at least, lightsaber mastery was, in my opinion, in a period of heavy decline.

 

Maybe, but Yoda and Mace were at the top of their game, they could beat anybody from any era, also if you read the stories lightsaber skill is always in decline, Revan's era: skills were being lost, Exar Kuns era: jedi were trying to prevent lightsaber skills from going into decline, every other era: saber skills either lost or in decline, so you can't put too much faith about the skills being in decline.

 

This only really holds weight if we assume Yoda and Windu only ever fought once, which seems highly unlikely. Also, I think sourcebooks are considered a lower form of EU canon as they deal with gameplay mechanics. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

G-canon sources (writers for the films) have stated that Yoda was more skilled than Mace, every other source is a lesser form of canon and can be overlooked.

 

I think the important thing to note here is that it is written from Windu's own perspective, rather then an unbiased third party or anything of the sort. So it's difficult to take this as completel factual, as it's coloured by opinion and perhaps respect, amongst other things. Context is important, imho.

Yes, but every viewpoint is personal, and if the quote was someone else, somebody would complain that Mace's view was being ignored. Plus Mace saying he knew Yoda was better is not a Bias you should ignore.

The great thing about Ataru in particular is we have two really solid references to how a standard practitioner utilizes it in the form of Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Phantom Menace, which gives us a great comparative point between how an average Jedi uses it compared to Yoda's Force augmented flurries. In this way we get a really clear indication of just how reliant on the Force Yoda really is when it comes to lightsaber combat, and that's a really important thing to look at with an argument like this - Ataru's probably the only real form where we have a clear vision of the fundamentals.

 

How skilled would you be after 900 years, mmmm (in Yoda's voice please), Yoda is extremely skilled, he uses the force to compensate for his age and stature, which is fair.

[Beniboybling]

Yes and even then when he did a hybrid, he still couldn't do the flowing Djem So he did in RoTS. I mean come on, look at vader's fighting style in ROTS, then ESB and RoTJ. Two completely different forms. Yes using Djem-so, but in his later years as Vadar, it was not as good as right around the events of order 66. He was crisp and effective in the form he perfected yes, but it was not the same and not in the same league as the form he used up until he was mutliated.

 

Plus again, you forget inherent weaknesses of Vader's form.

 

1. He HAS to guard his chest piece, which limits his Djem-So movements to basically a box around his frame. He can have all the knowledge in the world, but he still can't apply over half the maneuvers he used to be able to. Again, I contest [respectfully ofcourse] that you can have all the knowledge in the world about swordsmanship, but if you can't apply ALL of it, leaves you a flawed swordsman.

 

2. Like I said, he cannot do many of the maneuvers that many forms called for. He might of learned mastery of all, but he couldn't APPLY master. Another reason why Luke eventually beat Vader. As much as he mastered his Verson of Djem-so, Vader was also TRAPPED in that style. He couldn't really change a lot of what he could do. He was not as fluid as say sideous, or Luke or hell BANE[yes I know I keep bringing him up but that's the point]. Sorry swordsmanship cannot JUST be about mastery, has also to do with APPLICATION. Sorry as far as other swordsmen, Vader has knowledge, but he's VERY limited in application on how he can apply it.

Trapped? How could Vader be trapped in Djem So if he branched out to include all other seven lightsaber forms. Vader's lightsaber form was superior to Anakins. It was a better version of Djem So.

 

You do make a point about application however, but I feel you exaggerate it. Vader was incapable of the spinning, acrobatic movements of Ataru, but that is essentially it. And retooling his fighting style to accommodate for his suit IMO shows a high level of understanding indeed and an pretty impressive demonstration.

 

Oh and as a side note, just because one is more fluid and flexible, does not make one a superior duelist. Bane would be overwhelmed by the crisp effectiveness and overwhelming power of Vader's form - and would be incapable of penetrating his staunch defense. How many people exactly have hit his chest piece?

[sell-dog]

plus he had to sit and guard his chest piece putting him at a further disadvantage.

 

This line confuses me. You're saying that Vader is limited b/c he has to protect his chest piece, ie His Torso. Doesn't every saber warrior, including Anakin Skywalker, have to protect their torso? Don't know how protecting a chest piece is more important for Vader than for Anakin and everyone else to protect themselves.

[AlexDougherty]

I can agree to that, but I think it's a safe bet that Sidious gets no.4, then again, Luke beat Reborn Sidious 1vs1 in a lightsaber engagement and Caedus was more than a match for a much more proficient Grand Master Skywalker.

 

Now there are many worthy of No.5 I will make a short list, there may well be more though worthy of said spot:

 

Darth Vader.

Exar Kun.

Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Count Dooku.

 

Obviously these names are going to spark a lot of argument.

 

But no.4 should be the focus, I feel Caedus and Sidious are the only two who can realistically gain that spot.

 

Well if Sidious gets spot 4 then Caedus will probably get spot 5, Sidious certainly qualifies for 4 or 5, can't comment on Caedus, but from the posts it seems he is about the same level as Sidious/Palpatine.

 

For the others, Count Dooku/Darth Tyranous was not in his prime in ROTS, if he had been twenty years younger, Anakin might have got his butt kicked.

 

But on the other hand Anakin/Vader got stronger, yes he stepped down a level when he lost his limbs, but he persevered and got his skill level back up, he was limited physically (in that he couldn't do backflips, cartwheels, etc). Countering this however, is his emotional stability, when he is in the Zone, he is an unstoppable killing machine. But when he isn't in the zone, and is in angry brat mode, he makes mistakes, which is why Obi-Wan beat him so thoroughly.

 

Obi-wan isn't in the Dooku-Anakin league, but he isn't far behind either, and he is far more balanced.

 

Exar Kun, is not in the same class as the others, he lacks the developments in technique the order had um developed. and he had a temper like Anakin's, only he could use it to focus himself, but it still occassionaly backfired on him. Also his own sense of superiority blinded him on several occasions, like the practice duel against a Cathar (before he left the order), were he antagonised his opponent, who promptly clawed his face, and he couldn't restrain his anger. No, Exar Kun was nowhere as good as he thought he was.

 

Personally I feel:

4) Sidious/Palpatine

5) Caedus

 

Then

6) Count Dooku

7) Anakin/Vader

8) Obi-wan

9)Exar Kun

 

Also I apologise for getting ahead of the spots we are deciding, but the arguements flowed, and I decided to put them in.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

1. Do you? As far as G-Canon is concerned, Yoda is a swordmaster who always uses his lightsaber first. Look at the films themselves, George Lucas creations. What does he do when he faces down Sidious? Draws his lightsaber, and engages him in a lightsaber combat. What does he do when Sidious gains the high ground and attempts to push a Force-based engagement. Draws his lightsaber, and attempts to engage him in lightsaber combat. What does he do when he engages Dooku, draws his lightsaber and engages him in a lightsaber duel. What does Yoda always do, in every engagement he has been in with a lightsaber opponent and then some? You guessed it, draw his lightsaber and engage him in a lightsaber duel. You are mistaken to believe that Yoda is potrayed as some kind of sorcerer type, you are incorrect, Yoda has and always will be displayed as a warrior and a master swordsman.

 

2. So far we have reached a tenuous consensus yes. However I'm not necessarily saying I'm correct. That would simply be my response to the notion that Yoda lacks practical knowledge in lightsaber combat. Your free to debate against it. In fact your encouraged, within reason of course.

 

3. Its certainly not concrete. But what is concrete is that a Jedi's power stems from serenity. And in order to draw on the light side of the Force, they need inner peace. Dun Moch tactics are in essence an attempt to disrupt that flow. Now while this applies more to Force ability, and no such much to lightsaber combat, a Jedi needs inner calm to wield a lightsaber effectively. Though this is just one of many contributing factors. The main factor is the destructive impact war has on teaching - which is immense. Just imagine what a collosal impact the complete eradication of the Jedi Order would have had on teaching. Just imagine what a 30 year war would have on teaching, with masters unable to teach new students being on the frontlines, or dead. But regardless, we are not comparing Orders here, but individuals. I will give it to you that many Jedi neglected certain forms, but Yoda and Windu are not among them.

 

4. Concerning the quotes, collectively they share a great deal of weight. Especially if we are taking into account that they are ultimately written by liscened authors, of which restrictions are placed on what they can and cannot say. Even implying Yoda is the best in the Order when it is not canonically true could be consider a violation of the rules. The validity of these quotes likely stem from the statements made by Gillard himself: "We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda." and "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

 

And yes, I agree, Yoda's application of Ataru is significant. As I said in one of the posts I referenced being able to attack with a fighting style soley composed of Su Ma rotations, is incredible from a technical perspective. Being able to perform a basic attack on its own requires a level of skill, but being able to perfom an attack mid flight in rapid succession, without hitting into a wall all being chopped in half, points to an incredible level of skill.

[Beniboybling]

This line confuses me. You're saying that Vader is limited b/c he has to protect his chest piece, ie His Torso. Doesn't every saber warrior, including Anakin Skywalker, have to protect their torso? Don't know how protecting a chest piece is more important for Vader than for Anakin and everyone else to protect themselves.

That is actually a point. Being slashed across the chest is kinda bad from everyone...

[AlexDougherty]

This line confuses me. You're saying that Vader is limited b/c he has to protect his chest piece, ie His Torso. Doesn't every saber warrior, including Anakin Skywalker, have to protect their torso? Don't know how protecting a chest piece is more important for Vader than for Anakin and everyone else to protect themselves.

 

I think he means the breathing apartatus and regulator which did jutt out slightly, but you've essentially hit the nail on the head, everybody needs to protect their chest (which house our lungs and other organs)

[Aurbere]

I will give it to you that many Jedi neglected certain forms, but Yoda and Windu are not among them.

 

Makashi (because of the lack of any real Force-using opponents) and Juyo (for obvious reasons) were the only neglected forms. In fact, many Jedi specialized in the other dueling forms. For instance, Form V is both a dueling form and a blaster deflection form, while Makashi is solely designed for dueling (hence the weakness to blaster-wielding foes).

[Aurbere]

I would

 

Thanks.

[Beniboybling]

In response to Alex, I would place Caedus over Sidious. Simply because his lightsaber abilities were great enough to go toe-to-toe with Skywalker in his prime, despite being the inferior force user. On the other hand Sidious was defeated by a pre-prime Skywalker - albeit with the help of his sister's battle meditation. I feel this strongly indicates that if Caedus and Sidious ever engaged in a lightsaber duel, Caedus would win. And not down to Force powers as Caedus is inferior.

[AlexDougherty]

In response to Alex, I would place Caedus over Sidious. Simply because his lightsaber abilities were great enough to go toe-to-toe with Skywalker in his prime, despite being the inferior force user. On the other hand Sidious was defeated by a pre-prime Skywalker - albeit with the help of his sister's battle meditation. I feel this strongly indicates that if Caedus and Sidious ever engaged in a lightsaber duel, Caedus would win. And not down to Force powers as Caedus is inferior.

 

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about Caedus, so I'll bow to your knowledge, especially since you seem to have given it some thought.

[Aurbere]

If there are no objections I think 4.Darth Caedus and naturally 5.Darth Sidious.

 

We should move on to no.6, which I think a few of us have been dreading, this will easily take up the biggest arguments.

 

Agreed.

[Beniboybling]

OK, Caedus and Sidious have been added to the list. Let's proceed to number #6.

 

I'm going to kick the debate of with some controversy and mention the elephant in the room - Kas'im. Sith Blademaster, master of all seven forms and lethal practitioner of Juyo, Ataru, Jar'Kai and double-bladed lightsaber combat.

[LadyKulvax]

I honestly think Kas'im is over-rated, he was the Sith battlemaster basically, but only in an era where the Sith were 99% cannon fodder and then he couldn't put down an upstart in Darth Bane and died for it.

 

He is the Sith equivalent of Cin Drallig.

[Selenial]

He is the Sith equivalent of Cin Drallig.

 

Heh

[Aurbere]

I honestly think Kas'im is over-rated, he was the Sith battlemaster basically, but only in an era where the Sith were 99% cannon fodder and then he couldn't put down an upstart in Darth Bane and died for it.

 

He is the Sith equivalent of Cin Drallig.

 

^This.

[sell-dog]

I honestly think Kas'im is over-rated, he was the Sith battlemaster basically, but only in an era where the Sith were 99% cannon fodder and then he couldn't put down an upstart in Darth Bane and died for it.

 

He is the Sith equivalent of Cin Drallig.

 

It is possible to be the lone diamond in the pile of crap.

 

Darth Vader lived in a time with only one other Sith present and couldn't bring down a relative upstart in Luke Skywalker yet that is not held against him for this list b/c he has more than enough feats and other material to assert his saber skill for this list. Question really is does Kas'im have material on him? I like the character but I'm just not sure that a side character in one novel will be enough material. Beni? If he does make it I think it will be more towards the end of the list.

 

PS by an upstart in Luke I mean that Luke's resume so to speak against Vader's in ROTJ don't compare in terms of # of feats and # of years practicing.

 

Edit: I'm not necessarily saying that if Kas'im had more material on him he would be definitely be above Vader. Just highlighted some similarities in your statement of Kas'im and Vader in ROTJ. Stating that I think lack of material (and thus lack of feats as the only time he's going all out is against Bane) would be Kas'im's fall from this list.

Edited August 13, 2013 by sell-dog

[Master-LC]

what about malgus? he is so strong or perhaps galen marek darth vader ? obi ?

[AlexDougherty]

I would like to nominate Count Dooku aka Darth Tyranous for spot 6, in the second film he thrashs Anakin and Obi-Wan, and holds off Yoda long enough to escape, admittedly he uses the force but his saber skills are not to be under estimated. Unfortunately in Revenge of the Sith Anakin defeats him, but not before he knocks out Obi-Wan. And here is the kicker, all this is after his prime, if he had been twenty years younger, then Anakin would not have beaten him.

 

Yes, the "IF" element of the above statement is a big if, and it assumes that he held a similar level of knowledge and knew the same moves, but I think it's valid. Also the fact he's a master of a single discipline counts against him, but that single discipline was good enough to match Yoda for a brief period, not a feat to be scoffed at.

 

Some might say that Anakin/Vader is the obvious choice for sixth place, but I feel his unpredictability undermines too much. On a good day Anakin/Vader could thrash Dooku, and maybe even Mace Windu, but when he's in Whiney Brat mode, then he makes too many mistakes and even Asaji Ventress or Kitt Fisto could beat him (not dismissing them, just that they aren't in his league).

Edited August 14, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[tunewalker]

I would like to nominate Count Dooku aka Darth Tyranous for spot 6, in the second film he thrashs Anakin and Obi-Wan, and holds off Yoda long enough to escape, admittedly he uses the force but his saber skills are not to be under estimated. Unfortunately in Revenge of the Sith Anakin defeats him, but not before he knocks out Obi-Wan. And here is the kicker, all this is after his prime, if he had been twenty years younger, then Anakin would not have beaten him.

 

Yes, the "IF" element of the above statement is a big if, and it assumes that he held a similar level of knowledge and knew the same moves, but I think it's valid. Also the fact he's a master of a single discipline counts against him, but that single discipline was good enough to match Yoda for a brief period, not a feat to be scoffed at.

 

Some might say that Anakin/Vader is the obvious choice for sixth place, but I feel his unpredictability undermines too much. On a good day Anakin/Vader could thrash Dooku, and maybe even Mace Windu, but when he's in Whiney Brat mode, then he makes too many mistakes and even Asaji Ventress or Kitt Fisto could beat him (not dismissing them, just that they aren't in his league).

 

Vader has less of those "whiny mode"s as Vader to the point that I would say in his prime you don't see those "whiny modes" at all it seems mostly early in his career does he keep making those mistakes, and we have to remember I do not believe tactics should neccisarrily be considered and just pure saber skill. Which as long as people don't outnumber Vader or lead him by the nose to where they can take the advantage when he doesn't have his head on straight and they just try to fight him head on Vader does extremely well.

[AlexDougherty]

Vader has less of those "whiny mode"s as Vader to the point that I would say in his prime you don't see those "whiny modes" at all it seems mostly early in his career does he keep making those mistakes, and we have to remember I do not believe tactics should neccisarrily be considered and just pure saber skill. Which as long as people don't outnumber Vader or lead him by the nose to where they can take the advantage when he doesn't have his head on straight and they just try to fight him head on Vader does extremely well.

 

You may have a point about Vader having far fewer Bratty moments later on, but he still has them on occasion, I remember several of the comics for the Rebellion era were he has them, but admittedly I don't think any of them were during fights.

 

However, the point about tactics not counting, I can't agree in this context, when Vader gives his opponent such a clear advantage, then it has to count. It is a flaw in his character that affects his skill level, without this flaw Obi-Wan would never have bee able to beat him, when Anakin/Vader is in focused killer mode he is nearly unbeatable, maybe Yoda or Mace could beat him when he's focused, but nobody else stands a chance. This is true even before he reachs his prime.

 

Unfortunately, this highlights what a deficiency his mood is. Not that you're necessarily wrong about which spot he deserves, the degree to which this flaw should be accounted for is debatable, which is why we are debating it.

Edited August 14, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

I think the next spot is between Vader and Dooku.

[LadyKulvax]

I would say Kun actually, like him or not he was the best duellist by far during his era.

 

He also mastered multiple forms and implemented them into his hybridized version of Niman which if you take all the way is literally the best form to master because you become a jack of all trades, he didn't just do that, he implemented Ataru speed with masterful Jar'Kai which is displayed with his unmatched use of a double-bladed single hilt lightsaber and used Juyo type ruthlessness and unpredictability removing the moderation the Jedi wielded it with.

 

When he killed Baas, Baas couldn't even tell what form he was using.

 

Anyone going to go and see Kick-A** 2, back later.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

I would say Kun actually, like him or not he was the best duellist by far during his era.

 

He also mastered multiple forms and implemented them into his hybridized version of Niman which if you take all the way is literally the best form to master because you become a jack of all trades, he didn't just do that, he implemented Ataru speed with masterful Jar'Kai which is displayed with his unmatched use of a double-bladed single hilt lightsaber and used Juyo type ruthlessness and unpredictability removing the moderation the Jedi wielded it with.

 

When he killed Baas, Baas couldn't even tell what form he was using.

 

Anyone going to go and see Kick-A** 2, back later.

 

Honostly I would def say Kun is up there but I would still put him below Vader, Kun owes much of his success to how much more powerful he was then every one else and even more so to how unorthodox his weapon was for the time. Saber staffs and Duel Sabers were largly not used during the time so him using them automatically gave him a huge edge over his opponents. He is Skilled and should be up there on this list I just think Vader hybridized form which was proven just as effective should be higher since it didn't rely on his enemies unfamiliarity with his weapon.

[Beniboybling]

I would say Kun actually, like him or not he was the best duellist by far during his era.

 

He also mastered multiple forms and implemented them into his hybridized version of Niman which if you take all the way is literally the best form to master because you become a jack of all trades, he didn't just do that, he implemented Ataru speed with masterful Jar'Kai which is displayed with his unmatched use of a double-bladed single hilt lightsaber and used Juyo type ruthlessness and unpredictability removing the moderation the Jedi wielded it with.

 

When he killed Baas, Baas couldn't even tell what form he was using.

 

Anyone going to go and see Kick-A** 2, back later.

I'm fairly sure Kun only ever mastered Niman, but took it to a ridiculous degree. I'm not sure I see much that indicates Kun over Vader or Dooku. Both achieved absolute mastery over their personal forms, Vader achieved a highly effective hybrid form, and hey Vader has even defeated a Jedi Battlemaster, and fairly easily for that matter.

 

Vader was also one of greatest duelists of his age, was Dooku. And they had some serious competition.