The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[Beniboybling]

I have already explained why, but if arguments are only accepted when they have their sources quoted, well you won't be seeing much of me when half my collection is not available.

 

If others can get the quotes for me, I would be obliged.

 

Until then I will wait till you've calmed down and stopped being so aggressive to three people now.

Three people? I don't feel I'm being aggressive to anyone and I apologies if I'm going across that way. I'm simply frustrated as people seem to be overlooking the facts. I'm quite tired of repeating myself.

 

For example I've already explained why fighting on par with someone, and sparring matches in general, are inconclusive to say the least - I've yet to hear a response. I've also explained more times than I care to count why Force abilities don't have any impact on one's mastery, but that's being ignored as well. I've also demonstrated why Dooku failed to overcome all the weaknesses of Makashi - ignored. I could go on but I won't.

 

EDIT: Perhaps while your waiting, you'd care to review these arguments.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Those 3 styles came about as part of game mechanics as far as I can tell as their only appearance in any work is in the games Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast. The styles of combat being used are never talked about outside of game mechanics so as far as I can tell these are game forms only and aren't truly in existence and all were created before lightsaber combat and the forms were invented at all, thus they were just their to fulfill a game mechanic and up to this point no lightsaber forms had been invented yet.

 

I have kind of already said where his knowledge would have come from Obi-wans Journal, the holocrons he got from the Dathomir Witches in 8 ABY, the holocron he found at byss in 11 ABY as well as the Jensaarii run in later. it is known that he recovered information and or reinvented ALL lightsaber forms for the NJO to use.

 

 

Edit: also last I checked according to fight saber Luke was a Master of Djem So, Soresu and Ataru with usable knowledge of all other forms by RotJ no reason for him to go and make up new ones, and since the Stong, medium and fast style are technically just game mechanics they would technically be N-cannon.

Well according to Wookieepedia:

 

While Luke had been provided with formal training in Ataru by Master Yoda, passing this on to his own students, the loss of so much knowledge from the old Jedi Order, including many lightsaber combat techniques, forced Luke's new order to essentially start from scratch. Kam Solusar trained the students in the three rings of defense, while Corran Horn trained them in many of CorSec's combat techniques. The three forms of the Jedi Order were eventually created, each specializing in a different aspect of combat.

 

So I don't think we can dismiss it entirely. However you do make good points. I think I'm going to introduce a formal means of comparison lightsaber abilities, much like the three aspects of Force powers. For now:

 

Knowledge - pertaining to one's expertise in the seven lightsaber forms i.e. mastery.

 

Understanding - pertaining to one's recognition of the strengths of weaknesses of the forms and their efforts to overcome the weaknesses and amplify the strengths. This also encompasses one's aptitude.

 

Application - pertaining to the use of one's personal form, and application of their knowledge and understanding - but inclusive only of skill. Not of physical capabilities, Force capabilities and tactical ability.

 

Knowledge and understanding - the bedrock of skill - being equal, but superior to application.

 

I'll attempt to use this format to compare Yoda, Windu and Luke.

 

Knowledge

 

Yoda - was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat and mastered the basics of Ataru to the nth degree.

 

Windu - was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat and mastered Form VII to the highest degree by developing Vaapad.

 

Luke - was known to have mastered Ataru, Djem So and Soresu and was also highly skilled in the use of Jar'Kai and possibly even Vaapad.

 

I'd give the edge to Yoda here. Like Windu he mastered a form to the highest degree, and according to canon he mastered the other forms to a greater extent that Windu. Second place would be a tough call between Windu and Luke. Much of the knowledge on lightsaber forms was lost, and while he certainly recovered a considerable deal of it, I doubt he recovered all. Yet despite this he likely achieved mastery over all seven forms of lightsaber combat, however I'd give a minor edge to Windu simply because Windu had access to a greater wealth of knowledge.

 

Understanding

 

Yoda - was able to overcome some of the weaknesses of his form, and effectively apply it to overcome his short stature, but remained a slave to form. Failing to develop beyond basic mastery, and his style suffered because of that.

 

Windu - used his extensive understanding of Juyo to perfect the form, eliminating its weaknesses and improving it. Albeit with the aid of Sora Bulq

 

Luke - possessed an outstanding aptitude for lightsaber combat, showing a natural understanding for the forms by surpassing Vader's own technique withing only a few years of training. He developed his own hybrid form similar to Vader's, but tacking into to levels Vader could never achieve, and on multiple occasions showed remarkable adaption to the situation, combating Lumiya's lightwhip by building a shoto. He also had a major hand in reinventing the forms.

 

I'd give Luke the edge in this category, while Windu clear possesses a great deal of understanding of lightsaber combat. Luke's aptitude surpasses this, his ability to tack rudimentary knowledge of the saber forms and adapt and perform remarkable well shows a deep understanding of how the forms work. Windu however surpasses Yoda, simply because he went beyond the basics. However the edge is by no means large as Yoda, being a primary instructor on lightsaber forms and a swordsmasters, likely possesses a great deal of understanding for the forms. It is more of a personality trait if anything that brings him down. NOTE: We must also take into account the possibility that this may have been an unintended representation of Yoda's abilities.

 

Application

 

Yoda - applied Ataru on an unprecedented level. Showing an incredibly level of technical mastery through his ability to launch a continual defense comprised solely of su ma rotations. Ataru being one of the most difficult forms to master.

 

Windu - applied Form VII with remarkable potency, a form that was noted by Yoda to be the deadliest of forms and as such one of the most difficult to master.

 

Luke - used his remarkable aptitude for lightsaber combat to mirror and surpass the fighting styles of others with only rudimentary training. Defeating the likes of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader at a young age, overcoming their wealth of lightsaber experience.

 

I'd give Luke the edge in this category. Yoda and Windu certainly perfom with a great deal of technical mastery, but Luke's ability to take basic training and turn it into lightsaber mastery in the midst of a duel is an incredibly application of his knowledge and understanding - I don't believe Windu or Yoda would be able to match this. In terms of second place I feel it is a draw between the two. Both forms are incredibly technical and while Form VII likely more so, Yoda's use of the su ma rotations as a primary form of attack level the playing field.

 

Overall, we have Yoda with an edge in Knowledge, and Windu an edge in Understanding, with them equaling in Application. At face value it would seem a draw, however Windu's edge in Understanding is smaller than Yoda's edge in Knowledge - and in the end could just be the result of poor character representation. Concerning Luke, he gets an edge in Application and Understanding over both Windu and Luke and only loses minorly in terms of Knowledge. So I feel overall Luke comes out on top.

 

In light of that, I'd put forward Luke Skywalker as #1 and nominate Yoda for #2 and Windu for #3.

[AlexDougherty]

I'm not looking for a cookie, I'm looking for some consensus.

 

I don't think you're going to get consensus, 31 pages and nobody is letting up, I feel that you are going to have to start overruling people and stating who goes into the number one spot, who goes into the number two spot, etc.

 

Several times now I thought we were getting to a point were we could start nailing down the top spots, but each time I was overly optimistic, which given that I'm a born again cynic is unusual. Sorry to say that you as the originator of this thread are going to have to put your foot down, and say what the order is.

 

I also have to say that Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Palpatine/Sidious are all pretty close in terms of skill, so I'm not too bothered what order they come out in, so long as nobody is ahead of them (now that would be outragous).

[Beniboybling]

I don't think you're going to get consensus, 31 pages and nobody is letting up, I feel that you are going to have to start overruling people and stating who goes into the number one spot, who goes into the number two spot, etc.

 

Several times now I thought we were getting to a point were we could start nailing down the top spots, but each time I was overly optimistic, which given that I'm a born again cynic is unusual. Sorry to say that you as the originator of this thread are going to have to put your foot down, and say what the order is.

 

I also have to say that Yoda, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Palpatine/Sidious are all pretty close in terms of skill, so I'm not too bothered what order they come out in, so long as nobody is ahead of them (now that would be outragous).

Well in reality, the consensus is in support of Luke Skywalker, if one reviews the entire thread. But I'll let my analysis linger for a while and see if any counter arguments are made.

 

However you're right, and I'm considering these arguments about Yoda being nothing without the Force as invalid.

[Aurbere]

Should I point out that Dark Rendezvous points to Yoda's superiority to Mace Windu not once or twice, but thrice?

 

Oh, looks like I just did...

[TalonVII]

Sorry But I saw about 2 pages back that Tune said Vader should get #5? No no no. Though as anakin skywalker he slam dunked Dooku[which IMO is a major strike against him for top 10], I can think of atleast 4 sith/jedi who would walk ALL OVER vader and not even break that much of a sweat.

 

Exar Kun, Malgus, Sateele Shan, Revan[Don't care what many say, Revan was an EXPERT duelest, probably one of the best at Jer'kai ever seen, even better than Kun was], blademaster Kas'im. All much better with a blade IMO than Vader was. If Vader makes the top 10, well he should be A LOT lower on the list.

[Aurbere]

Sorry But I saw about 2 pages back that Tune said Vader should get #5? No no no. Though as anakin skywalker he slam dunked Dooku[which IMO is a major strike against him for top 10], I can think of atleast 4 sith/jedi who would walk ALL OVER vader and not even break that much of a sweat.

 

Exar Kun, Malgus, Sateele Shan, Revan[Don't care what many say, Revan was an EXPERT duelest, probably one of the best at Jer'kai ever seen, even better than Kun was], blademaster Kas'im. All much better with a blade IMO than Vader was. If Vader makes the top 10, well he should be A LOT lower on the list.

 

*shakes head*

[TalonVII]

*shakes head*

 

What? Say what you will Aurbere, there are much better duelists than Vader. Only reason he was so strong, back then, he had no competition! I mean think about it. All that was left by that point, were stragglers and people who managed to avoid order 66. Most were more concerned about keeping alive and under the radar than challenging vader.

 

And yes you have your issues with Revan, I know this. But come on. Even you must admit when it comes to the Jer'kai two saber fighting style, one of the best is Revan. Even without the rest of it, that was confirmed many times that he was one of the best with two sabers. Hell I can think of a handful of people as good as revan in Jer'kai, maybe Kavar, but even Kavar said revan was one of the best.

[Beniboybling]

Sorry But I saw about 2 pages back that Tune said Vader should get #5? No no no. Though as anakin skywalker he slam dunked Dooku[which IMO is a major strike against him for top 10], I can think of atleast 4 sith/jedi who would walk ALL OVER vader and not even break that much of a sweat.

 

Exar Kun, Malgus, Sateele Shan, Revan[Don't care what many say, Revan was an EXPERT duelest, probably one of the best at Jer'kai ever seen, even better than Kun was], blademaster Kas'im. All much better with a blade IMO than Vader was. If Vader makes the top 10, well he should be A LOT lower on the list.

When did Revan ever wield Jar'Kai? And were is it stated that he was an expert duelist. I'm mean sure he probably is but let's not exaggerate his abilities.

 

Anyway I agree with Tune concerning Vader. Not only did he retool his entire fighting style to accommodate for his suit but he achieved absolute mastery over Djem So - greater than he had as Anakin Skywalker. Who was considered one of the Order's greatest lightsaber duelists. Then Vader, unlike Dooku, took this mastery one step further. Including elements of all seven lightsaber forms into his style. Making his fighting style brutally effective. On top of that he had a nigh impenetrable defense. Simply put, his form was flawless, with not a single weakness.

 

He took on 8 Jedi, five on which were Masters, and won.

 

I suggest you listen to this.

 

He'd most certainly defeat Dooku, I have no doubt about that.

 

P.S. And if there are no further arguments, I'm going to for now put Luke, Yoda and Windu on the list in that order. We can at least agree these are who should occupy the spaces, if we still have differing opinions at the end we can debate.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

And yes you have your issues with Revan, I know this. But come on. Even you must admit when it comes to the Jer'kai two saber fighting style, one of the best is Revan. Even without the rest of it, that was confirmed many times that he was one of the best with two sabers. Hell I can think of a handful of people as good as revan in Jer'kai, maybe Kavar, but even Kavar said revan was one of the best.

Revan never mastered Jar'Kai. He never even used dual blades, ever. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

[Beniboybling]

What? Say what you will Aurbere, there are much better duelists than Vader. Only reason he was so strong, back then, he had no competition! I mean think about it. All that was left by that point, were stragglers and people who managed to avoid order 66. Most were more concerned about keeping alive and under the radar than challenging vader.

Don't forget Vader surpassed Anakin as a lightsaber duelist, and Anakin had the entire Jedi Order to measure up to. Anakin surpassed Dooku. His Djem So became too great for Dooku to handle. Anakin was considered one of the best duelists in the Order and likely even surpassed Obi-Wan. Who I place on rung below the likes of Yoda and Windu.

 

Vader was better than that, and I fully believe that he could go toe-to-toe with Yoda, Windu and even Sidious. Heck. The Jensaarai even thinks Vader would beat Yoda, and I can assure you his logic is sound.

[LadyKulvax]

P.S. And if there are no further arguments, I'm going to for now put Luke, Yoda and Windu on the list in that order. We can at least agree these are who should occupy the spaces, if we still have differing opinions at the end we can debate.

 

I can agree to that, but I think it's a safe bet that Sidious gets no.4, then again, Luke beat Reborn Sidious 1vs1 in a lightsaber engagement and Caedus was more than a match for a much more proficient Grand Master Skywalker.

 

Now there are many worthy of No.5 I will make a short list, there may well be more though worthy of said spot:

 

Darth Vader.

Exar Kun.

Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Count Dooku.

 

Obviously these names are going to spark a lot of argument.

 

But no.4 should be the focus, I feel Caedus and Sidious are the only two who can realistically gain that spot.

Edited August 12, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

What? Say what you will Aurbere, there are much better duelists than Vader. Only reason he was so strong, back then, he had no competition! I mean think about it. All that was left by that point, were stragglers and people who managed to avoid order 66. Most were more concerned about keeping alive and under the radar than challenging vader.

 

You didn't really prove that any of those duelists are superior to Vader.

 

And yes you have your issues with Revan, I know this. But come on. Even you must admit when it comes to the Jer'kai two saber fighting style, one of the best is Revan. Even without the rest of it, that was confirmed many times that he was one of the best with two sabers. Hell I can think of a handful of people as good as revan in Jer'kai, maybe Kavar, but even Kavar said revan was one of the best.

 

I don't have an issue with Revan (why does everyone say that? )

 

Well, I have an issue with his involvement in the RoT, but that's neither here nor there.

[Aurbere]

Vader was better than that, and I fully believe that he could go toe-to-toe with Yoda, Windu and even Sidious. Heck. The Jensaarai even thinks Vader would beat Yoda, and I can assure you his logic is sound.

 

I still disagree with that decision, but w/e.

[tunewalker]

Well according to Wookieepedia:

 

While Luke had been provided with formal training in Ataru by Master Yoda, passing this on to his own students, the loss of so much knowledge from the old Jedi Order, including many lightsaber combat techniques, forced Luke's new order to essentially start from scratch. Kam Solusar trained the students in the three rings of defense, while Corran Horn trained them in many of CorSec's combat techniques. The three forms of the Jedi Order were eventually created, each specializing in a different aspect of combat.

 

 

Kam and Corran just added to the pot of combat experience and Luke wanted that since he didn't discourage other forms of weapons or martial arts at all. The idea of the three forms is being extrapolated from the idea that the strong, medium and fast style exist, but take a look at the sources for this

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Strong_style as you can see it only makes an appearance in Jedi academy and Jedi Outcast, and I can tell you from playing the games they only appear as a mechanic not in a cut scenes. Further more it is said to be in the book of sith, but look up the book of sith. It was a book written THOUSANDS of years prior and had things from Malgus, Bane, Plaegus, Sidious, and supposedly had comments added in by Vader, Ventress, and Mace windu. Further more if you look up what information it had on Saber combat the only ones listed are Dun Mach, Djem So, and Juyo/Vaapad. So if the three styles were invented (don't think it was since I just threw a wrench in there existance) it would have been done with full knowledge of the original 7 forms, meaning if it did exist then Luke technically created 3 hybrid forms.

 

 

 

Edit: as far as Number 4 goes with Caedus being here its very difficult to call. I am leaning Caedus as of right now but I am unsure since I am pretty sure he only stood against GM Luke because of GM Luke being distracted in all of their engagements.

 

 

Edit 2: you have to remember Jensaari's logic is based on tactical decisions that Yoda and Vader make not purely based on skill. Yoda would still be more skilled as we have surmised here but he was lacking in tactical capability in 1v1 situations where he just blew everything he had in an attempt to take his opponent down as fast as possible. So while still sound not entirely having to do with Lightsaber skill.

Edited August 12, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I still disagree with that decision, but w/e.

Well I'm not totally convinced either, but as always the Jensaarai makes an excellent argument. However a part of me thinks that Vader would just break under Yoda's vicious assault, the other is rooting for the underdog and shouting Vader FTW! But if Vader won, it would be a rock paper scissors scenario.

 

Either way, my point really was that Vader could go toe-to-toe with Yoda. Which is too hard to believe as Vader likely was at least on par with Dooku, who in turn could prove a match for Yoda.

[Aurbere]

Well I'm not totally convinced either, but as always the Jensaarai makes an excellent argument. However a part of me thinks that Vader would just break under Yoda's vicious assault, the other is rooting for the underdog and shouting Vader FTW! But if Vader won, it would be a rock paper scissors scenario.

 

Either way, my point really was that Vader could go toe-to-toe with Yoda. Which is too hard to believe as Vader likely was at least on par with Dooku, who in turn could prove a match for Yoda.

 

I'm sure Vader would prove a good match for Yoda, but I feel that Yoda would triumph in the end.

[TalonVII]

Revan never mastered Jar'Kai. He never even used dual blades, ever. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

 

There are many times he fought using jer'kai. hell when you see him as a force apparation during KoToR II, you see him dual wielding.

[TalonVII]

You didn't really prove that any of those duelists are superior to Vader.

 

 

 

I don't have an issue with Revan (why does everyone say that? )

 

Well, I have an issue with his involvement in the RoT, but that's neither here nor there.

 

yes do you think he could take on Exar Kun and win? Or Bane. Sorry as good as Vader was at Djem-So, from what I have read, Bane is even BETTER at Djem-so, and ofcourse like you pointed out in another thread, Exar Kun and Nimian, would wreck Vader in a HURRY.

[Selenial]

Revan never mastered Jar'Kai. He never even used dual blades, ever. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

 

In all fairness, Revan fought with a Red blade and purple blade on some occasions, though it was not his Form of choice... Just sometimes fitted the situation better... He Dual-Wielded when necessary.

 

He in the end preferred the Single green blade.. (I have a theory on that, do you think he put the Mantle of the Force, and the Heart of the Guardian, in one blade? Orange+Cyan = Greeny)

Edited August 12, 2013 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

yes do you think he could take on Exar Kun and win? Or Bane. Sorry as good as Vader was at Djem-So, from what I have read, Bane is even BETTER at Djem-so, and ofcourse like you pointed out in another thread, Exar Kun and Nimian, would wreck Vader in a HURRY.

 

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

Consider the fact that Vader is the greatest master of Djem So and used it in a hybrid form with all seven forms. His form had no weakness.

 

And Exar Kun would not 'wreck' Vader in lightsaber combat.

[Beniboybling]

There are many times he fought using jer'kai. hell when you see him as a force apparation during KoToR II, you see him dual wielding.

That is one occasion, and its not even the real thing. All other times he is depicted as wielding a single blade, and at no point is he shown or said to have achieved absolute mastery. I have no idea where you got this idea from.

 

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080214033125/starwars/images/f/fc/DarthRevan_DarthMalak_EGF.jpg

 

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100312065526/starwars/images/6/6d/RevanIsBorn-KotOR42.jpg

 

http://www.justpushstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SWTOR-Revan.jpg

 

http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/star-wars-the-old-republic/malak-and-revan_wide.jpg

 

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100806190443/starwars/images/1/11/MtheUvsRevan.jpg

 

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100828034843/starwars/images/e/e0/Revan_fights_Malak.jpg

 

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFZJmdzWL.jpg

 

http://hydra-images.cursecdn.com/swtor.gamepedia.com/thumb/f/fe/Revan_Codex.jpg/330px-Revan_Codex.jpg

 

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100612174409/starwars/images/thumb/1/1e/Sith_revan.jpg/250px-Sith_revan.jpg

 

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100611230505/starwars/images/thumb/f/f6/Revan_fights_Sith.jpg/640px-Revan_fights_Sith.jpg

 

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051202225808/starwars/images/thumb/2/22/Shadows_and_Light.jpg/341px-Shadows_and_Light.jpg

 

That's pretty much every image there is of Revan with a lightsaber. All in which he wielded a single blade.

 

And these are Revan's canon lightsaber abilities:

 

Revan was a highly skilled combatant when it came to lightsaber combat, and his abilities were bolstered by his gift of precognition. He often made use of acrobatic maneuvers in combat, bolstering his body's natural abilities with the Force in order to increase his effectiveness. He defeated Mandalore the Ultimate, the leader of the Mandalorian warrior culture and a famed warrior in his own right, in single combat at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and could hold his own against Sith, Mandalorians, and regular soldiers in combat. On Korriban, Revan single-handedly defeated a pair of massive terentateks, and he was also skilled at deflecting and redirecting enemy fire with his lightsaber.

 

He was a highly skilled combatant, Vader was a lightsaber prodigy and master. They do not compare.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I think I'm just going to go ahead of the curve here and pose a list of duelists that I think make a play for the list.

 

Darth Vader

Exar Kun

Count Dooku

Obi-Wan Kenobi

Darth Maul

Asajj Ventress

Kit Fisto

Plo Koon

Shaak Ti

Darth Caedus

Darth Sidious (obviously)

Jaina Solo

 

In no particular order, of course.

[TalonVII]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

Consider the fact that Vader is the greatest master of Djem So and used it in a hybrid form with all seven forms. His form had no weakness.

 

And Exar Kun would not 'wreck' Vader in lightsaber combat.

 

Yes Exar Kun would and for one very simple reason. Which I find your lack of knowledge even MORE disturbing. Vader had now real flow, he was jerky and very methodical, not as flowing as he was when he was Anakin Skywalker. Which is another reason why Luke eventually beat him, Luke was more fluid and not restricted as Vader was. Simple reason right there Kun would pick him apart IMO.

 

Vader was restricted to what moves and stances he could take because of his mutilation. Hybrid form be damned along with Djem-so. Read "rise of lord vader", vader even said it himself, he could not move the way he used to, and realized he never would. His hybrid Djem-so, was never as good as his mastery was when he had most of his natural limbs.

 

Come on Aubere, that's not lack of faith, that's just cold hard reality.

[Beniboybling]

I can agree to that, but I think it's a safe bet that Sidious gets no.4, then again, Luke beat Reborn Sidious 1vs1 in a lightsaber engagement and Caedus was more than a match for a much more proficient Grand Master Skywalker.

 

Now there are many worthy of No.5 I will make a short list, there may well be more though worthy of said spot:

 

Darth Vader.

Exar Kun.

Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Count Dooku.

 

Obviously these names are going to spark a lot of argument.

 

But no.4 should be the focus, I feel Caedus and Sidious are the only two who can realistically gain that spot.

Did Caedus master all seven lightsaber forms? I'd suppose its not too much of a stretch to suggest he did. And fighting on par with Luke Skywalker (who was the more powerful Force user) would suggest his abilities were close to his. But I'll leave the NJO experts to make the arguments there.