The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[LadyKulvax]

Also Dooku can overcome the kinetic frailties of Makashi with footwork and balance, he did the same to Anakin himself, when Anakin killed him it wasn't due to some superior lightsaber skill, it was down to a well made trap by Kenobi, once Anakin really laid in on him Dooku had nowhere to go and nothing to do but try and block as he attempted to adapt to Skywalker's change in technique, simply put he didn't have a chance to bring his A game.

 

Claiming Dooku didn't overcome the natural weaknesses of Makashi is completely wrong:

 

He could easily deflect incoming blaster bolts and from multiple targets without an issue at all.

He could easily face off against many opponents and win easily, which is seen three times over.

He could defeat the lack of kinetic power with sheer footwork and balance, not allowing direct engagements.

 

When it comes to Yoda, Yoda couldn't beat him the AOTC novel makes it clear that they fought to a standstill in both combats, he left because he didn't want to get stuck there whilst more and more Jedi arrived and his armies left him behind.

[LadyKulvax]

I'd be interested to see these sources.

 

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

The New Essential Guide to Characters.

Power of the Jedi sourcebook.

Labyrinth of Evil.

Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Novelization.

[Beniboybling]

Also Dooku can overcome the kinetic frailties of Makashi with footwork and balance, he did the same to Anakin himself, when Anakin killed him it wasn't due to some superior lightsaber skill, it was down to a well made trap by Kenobi, once Anakin really laid in on him Dooku had nowhere to go and nothing to do but try and block as he attempted to adapt to Skywalker's change in technique, simply put he didn't have a chance to bring his A game.

 

Claiming Dooku didn't overcome the natural weaknesses of Makashi is completely wrong:

 

He could easily deflect incoming blaster bolts and from multiple targets without an issue at all.

He could easily face off against many opponents and win easily, which is seen three times over.

He could defeat the lack of kinetic power with sheer footwork and balance, not allowing direct engagements.

 

When it comes to Yoda, Yoda couldn't beat him the AOTC novel makes it clear that they fought to a standstill in both combats, he left because he didn't want to get stuck there whilst more and more Jedi arrived and his armies left him behind.

I find it hard to believe that Dooku was caught off guard to such an extent that he wasn't able to fight to his fullest ability. The 'trap' was sprung early in to the fight and Dooku adapted, then he took out Kenobi and stunned Anakin. At this point I'm sure he realised the threat his foes posed, and adapted when Anakin moved to engage him again. How long exactly does it take to bump up to A grade? Seconds I would have thought. Dooku had more than enough time to realise the threat being posed. Anakin overwhelmed him by exploiting Makashi's primary weakness.

 

Concerning Yoda vs Dooku - its clear from the novelisation that Dooku was losing. And is stated as much here:

 

Anakin and Obi-Wan made it their mission to capture Count Dooku. They cornered him in the Geonosian hangar bay, but Dooku's powers proved too great. Far from being merely a disaffected Jedi, Dooku was in fact a Sith Lord, Darth Sidious' replacement for the late Darth Maul. Dooku's crimson lightsaber severed Anakin's right arm at the elbow, and both Jedi would have died had it not been for the arrival of Yoda. The windmilling onslaught of Yoda's lightsaber forced Dooku to flee.

 

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

 

Yoda then faces Dooku again on Vjun, despite being a dark side nexus, and defeats him. Dooku using similar evasive tactics to ensure his escape. He had no reason to retreat this situation, but he realised he had lost and did so.

 

EDIT: It should also be noted that prior to their duel on the Invisible Hand Dooku was

by Anakin fair and square in a lightsaber duel, exploiting the one weakness Dooku failed to overcome. Edited August 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

The New Essential Guide to Characters.

Power of the Jedi sourcebook.

Labyrinth of Evil.

Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Novelization.

That's not exactly helpful...

 

EDIT: I expect they say Windu and Dooku could fight on par with Yoda, which is true. However other canon quotes demonstrate that Yoda was superior to Windu and Yoda has beaten Dooku in lightsaber combat twice.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[StarSquirrel]

Two source books and three novels (including a film novel) is a good amount of support for this case.

 

Beni, even if they just say that Dooku and Mace could fight on par with Yoda (with Yoda fully utilizing his superior force talent in his combat) That implies that their technique must be sufficiently superior to compensate for the disparity in force power.

 

The broad quotes you direct us to could also be attributed to a general sense of the time (rather than compared to individuals) while Rayla (I believe) is showing us more directs comparisons.

 

Also, I'd rather not just have a repeat of the most Powerful Jedi/Sith/Force Users threads in terms of having the same guys always on top. If the guys are top force users & top duelists they had too much time on their hands to master both .

[Selenial]

Also, I'd rather not just have a repeat of the most Powerful Jedi/Sith/Force Users threads in terms of having the same guys always on top. If the guys are top force users & top duelists they had too much time on their hands to master both .

 

They weren't allowed to Date, or have families, or have Jobs. And by the time Dooku got rid of those rules, he was 70. What else do they spend their time doing?

[StarSquirrel]

They weren't allowed to Date, or have families, or have Jobs. And by the time Dooku got rid of those rules, he was 70. What else do they spend their time doing?

 

Saving/Destroying the Galaxy of course

Edited August 11, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Two source books and three novels (including a film novel) is a good amount of support for this case.

 

Beni, even if they just say that Dooku and Mace could fight on par with Yoda (with Yoda fully utilizing his superior force talent in his combat) That implies that their technique must be sufficiently superior to compensate for the disparity in force power.

 

The broad quotes you direct us to could also be attributed to a general sense of the time (rather than compared to individuals) while Rayla (I believe) is showing us more directs comparisons.

 

Also, I'd rather not just have a repeat of the most Powerful Jedi/Sith/Force Users threads in terms of having the same guys always on top. If the guys are top force users & top duelists they had too much time on their hands to master both .

More direct? We don't even know what the quotes say! How can they be more direct than primarily out-of-universe sourcebooks definitively stating that Yoda is a more skilled lightsaber duelist than Mace Windu. Oh and throw in a direct quote from Nick Gillard himself, the guy who practically invented the lightsaber forms saying: "We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

 

Consider me deeply confused. Broad is the last word I would use to describe these quotes. Take this one:

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

It makes direct reference for Windu for one, then makes a direct comparison with Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Council, of which Windu was a member. Not only implying but stating that Yoda is a more skilled duelist than Windu. I see no room whatsoever for interpretation here. Whereas 'fighting on par' couldn't me any more vague. For one sparring matches are inconclusive evidence concerning ability, else Kenobi would be vastly superior to Windu. And secondly I can't find any evidence of Yoda ever being beaten in such a match.

 

Fighting on par is what Yoda and Dooku did on Geonosis and Vjun, yet Yoda still won. Fighting on par is what Windu and Sidious did on Coruscant, yet Windu still won. Fighting on par is what Ventress has done with Kenobi and Anakin throughout the course of the Clone Wars, yet the latter are still superior.

 

P.S. Yoda lived for 900 years, he had a hell of a lot of time on his hands.

[StarSquirrel]

More direct? We don't even know what the quotes say! How can they be more direct than primarily out-of-universe sourcebooks definitively stating that Yoda is a more skilled lightsaber duelist than Mace Windu. Oh and throw in a direct quote from Nick Gillard himself, the guy who practically invented the lightsaber forms saying: "We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

 

Consider me deeply confused. Broad is the last word I would use to describe these quotes. Take this one:

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

It makes direct reference for Windu for one, then makes a direct comparison with Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Council, of which Windu was a member. Not only implying but stating that Yoda is a more skilled duelist than Windu. I see no room whatsoever for interpretation here. Whereas 'fighting on par' couldn't me any more vague. For one sparring matches are inconclusive evidence concerning ability, else Kenobi would be vastly superior to Windu. And secondly I can't find any evidence of Yoda ever being beaten in such a match.

 

Fighting on par is what Yoda and Dooku did on Geonosis and Vjun, yet Yoda still won. Fighting on par is what Windu and Sidious did on Coruscant, yet Windu still won. Fighting on par is what Ventress has done with Kenobi and Anakin throughout the course of the Clone Wars, yet the latter are still superior.

 

P.S. Yoda lived for 900 years, he had a hell of a lot of time on his hands.

 

Woah, lets tone it down. Alright you're correct. Your quote that references Mace is direct so you get a cookie for that one.

 

I can't be sure the passages Rayla is referring to so I was speculating on what I remember from the books she listed (the ones I had read). I have actually been digging around looking for those quotes but have yet to see them.

 

Also, Yoda vs Dooku in every fight they had was close, Dooku learned directly from Yoda. If Yoda was perhaps toned down in the force category Dooku could take or even beat Yoda imo. But I'm not the Dooku expert so I'll let Rayla take that topic and run with it.

 

Mace on the other hand. Yes I agree he is repeatedly said to be second to Yoda. But your insistence that skill purely reflects saber usage and had no bearing on the use of the force, doesn't have me convinced.

 

As for fighting on par, it is exactly what is sounds like. A fight even enough to go either way, and the fact one or the other won is important to be sure, but we have to remember that Yoda is vastly superior in force ability. Since his saber usage is so heavily reliant on the force, if we tone down force usage to equal levels for all users then it stands to reason his ability will go down and he will lose the edge that allows him to pull out these wins.

 

As for age, alright he had the time...

 

I'm spit balling here, lemme get back to you with some actual facts if I may.

[TalonVII]

Ok I think we've proven top 2 go to Yoda 1, Mace 2.

 

Luke if we're talking Grand Master Skywalker should go at 3, then Sideous at 4?

[LadyKulvax]

I wont be able to pull direct quotes from the books I listed because I only have two of them now (I have half my collection at another house) but it's made clear that they are so close that they actively have to attempt abusing the other's weakness whilst using their own advantage against them, there was never an outright superior in the three, they are clearly extremely close in their spars and engagements.

 

It is also canon that Yoda uses his Force Speed to fight on the level he does, without Force Speed he can barely fight whatsoever with his lightsaber, he uses Force Speed and the acrobatic moves of Ataru heavily with his lightsaber form and technique, otherwise he just can't fight effectively.

 

Take away Force Speed from Yoda and his combat effectiveness drops sharply, hell even Jensaarai's videos makes these same comments and he always uses the canon information he has.

 

The likes of Windu and Dooku specifically focused on perfecting their prowess in lightsaber combat and Dooku had not only managed to gain a highly proficient working knowledge of every other form, he had drowned out the main weaknesses of Form II and basically become the form's greatest practitioner, this is THE lightsaber duelling technique and he uses it in the most energy efficient way possible, much more practical than Yoda's Ataru which tires him out very quickly.

[tunewalker]

Sorry Tune, I just don't see Sidious breaking the top 3 or 4 right now so I don't see Luke beating him as such an impressive feat. That was as much force power as skill and so it is hard to judge ability in that context.

 

As for Mace, no Vaapad is an extension of Juyo so it doesn't *require* the force to use it effectively. Extra force energy just makes it invincible against DS users (note: Juyo is a known and effective jedi killing form). Juyo as a form itself is unpredictable to the opponent (meaning Mace can trap and manipulate the fight especially since he'll know the opponent's next move thanks to his mastery of the other forms). Maul used it, Bane used it ect... and these guys are considered superior duelists yet even they never mastered Juyo so imagine what a master could do. Juyo is widely considered the best form, the reason more don't use it is LS users fall and DS users can go insane. Mace danced on the razors edge so much he was at home with it. He was the epitome of Saber combat imo.

 

Also, can you tell me the post # or page please Tune? I couldn't find the post you mention, if Luke really did use all forms (individually not elements into his hybrid) I'd be interested and it might change my position a tad bit.

 

Oh and Ganner Rhysode should get an honorable mention. His last stand was far and away my favorite part of the NJO series full stop. (either here or in the most powerful Jedi or Force Users thread.)

 

EDIT: 28 pages and 271 posts in and we're still debating #1

 

thank you for missing the point AGAIN, here let me repeat AGAIN.

 

First on the whole Vaapad doesn't need a lot of force power to use "Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power essential to all variations of Form VII as another prerequisite for its use." this says other wise.

 

 

Next Sidious is very clearly set up to be number 4, Windu beat him but Luke beat him when Sidious was in a younger body, thus the force power difference between Luke and Windu could be made up by Sidious physically more capable body and since Luke was still weaker then Sidious in the force clearly skill wise Luke at this time is greater then Sidious. Second PAY ATTENTION THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART THAT KEEPS GETTING MISSED.

 

this is still 1 year away from Luke setting up his praxeum and we know from Jedi Academy that Luke keeps training and refining his skills, the Yuzong Vong don't attack for another 15 years so that's 15 years where Luke spends 80% of his time training and refining his skill or training his students up until this point Luke hasn't had much time to train and he has still become a master to a degree that he would be 3rd on this list, now he has 15 years of doing little else but training to think that he surpassed Yoda by this point is by no means ridiculous and is indeed highly likely since it only took him 10 years with little time to train to be good enough to challenge Yoda and Windu 15 with majority spent training would be easy for him to surpass both of them.

 

 

 

Edit: Djem So is also supposedly a pure Lightsaber dueling form so Makashi isn't the only one and Djem So is a hard counter to Makashi to boot, while Shien is supposed to be the blaster portion of form V still usable for saber fighting but not intended for it.

Edited August 12, 2013 by tunewalker

[AlexDougherty]

Ok I think we've proven top 2 go to Yoda 1, Mace 2.

 

Luke if we're talking Grand Master Skywalker should go at 3, then Sideous at 4?

 

Yes, this seems to be the list so far, it's been hammered out over a quite protacted discussion (29 pages so far).

 

I would like to suggest Count Dount/Darth Tyrannus for position 5, he was a master duellist, but not quite as good as Sidious, certainly good enough to give Yoda and Mace a run for their money, but not good enough to beat them.

Edited August 12, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

I wont be able to pull direct quotes from the books I listed because I only have two of them now (I have half my collection at another house) but it's made clear that they are so close that they actively have to attempt abusing the other's weakness whilst using their own advantage against them, there was never an outright superior in the three, they are clearly extremely close in their spars and engagements.

 

It is also canon that Yoda uses his Force Speed to fight on the level he does, without Force Speed he can barely fight whatsoever with his lightsaber, he uses Force Speed and the acrobatic moves of Ataru heavily with his lightsaber form and technique, otherwise he just can't fight effectively.

 

Take away Force Speed from Yoda and his combat effectiveness drops sharply, hell even Jensaarai's videos makes these same comments and he always uses the canon information he has.

 

The likes of Windu and Dooku specifically focused on perfecting their prowess in lightsaber combat and Dooku had not only managed to gain a highly proficient working knowledge of every other form, he had drowned out the main weaknesses of Form II and basically become the form's greatest practitioner, this is THE lightsaber duelling technique and he uses it in the most energy efficient way possible, much more practical than Yoda's Ataru which tires him out very quickly.

I already explained on multiple occasions why Yoda's Force speed is irrelevant to his skill with a lightsaber - and by robbing him of that ability and trying to make a comparison you are putting him at unfair advantage.

 

A lightsaber duel as I'm sure we are all aware is not simply determined by one's prowess with a lightsaber. But by ones tactical ability, one's physical capability, ones Force prowess etc. and in a lightsaber duel each component relies on the other, so when you take one away the rest collapse. That is what you are doing here.

 

Its like saying Asajj Ventress is a superior lightsaber duelist to Obi-Wan because she'd be able to beat Ben Kenobi. Heck if we want to take this to the extreme its like saying Jar Jar is a better lightsaber duelist than Vader when he got all his limbs chopped off. Yet I wouldn't say Ben Kenobi or Vader in his crippled state were suddenly robbed of their lightsaber ability. Because it exists in the mind.

 

So forget Force valor, forget Yoda's stature, his age, absolutely everything you know about Yoda except his mental knowledge and understanding of the lightsaber forms. That is all that matters here.

 

If we don't come to realise this we won't get anywhere.

 

P.S. Again fighting on par and being superior are two different things. Windu and Dooku can fight on par with Yoda, but that doesn't make them better duelists. Yoda is still superior.

[tunewalker]

I already explained on multiple occasions why Yoda's Force speed is irrelevant to his skill with a lightsaber - and by robbing him of that ability and trying to make a comparison you are putting him at unfair advantage.

 

A lightsaber duel as I'm sure we are all aware is not simply determined by one's prowess with a lightsaber. But by ones tactical ability, one's physical capability, ones Force prowess etc. and in a lightsaber duel each component relies on the other, so when you take one away the rest collapse. That is what you are doing here.

 

Its like saying Asajj Ventress is a superior lightsaber duelist to Obi-Wan because she'd be able to beat Ben Kenobi. Heck if we want to take this to the extreme its like saying Jar Jar is a better lightsaber duelist than Vader when he got all his limbs chopped off. Yet I wouldn't say Ben Kenobi or Vader in his crippled state were suddenly robbed of their lightsaber ability. Because it exists in the mind.

 

So forget Force valor, forget Yoda's stature, his age, absolutely everything you know about Yoda except his mental knowledge and understanding of the lightsaber forms. That is all that matters here.

 

If we don't come to realise this we won't get anywhere.

 

P.S. Again fighting on par and being superior are two different things. Windu and Dooku can fight on par with Yoda, but that doesn't make them better duelists. Yoda is still superior.

 

I wouldn't just say mind I would also say a little bit of muscle memory, take away Yoda's disabilities and give him the same skill level, so he doesn't need the intense force valor to move like he would have in his younger years but with the experience of his older years and I think it would become clear. At the end of the day we have a source linked earlier that says Yoda was second to none and Windu was second only to Yoda in that Era.

 

 

Still obviously say 1. Luke 2. Yoda 3. Windu and 4 sidious. and would like to nominate Vader as 5.

[Beniboybling]

Woah, lets tone it down. Alright you're correct. Your quote that references Mace is direct so you get a cookie for that one.

 

I can't be sure the passages Rayla is referring to so I was speculating on what I remember from the books she listed (the ones I had read). I have actually been digging around looking for those quotes but have yet to see them.

 

Also, Yoda vs Dooku in every fight they had was close, Dooku learned directly from Yoda. If Yoda was perhaps toned down in the force category Dooku could take or even beat Yoda imo. But I'm not the Dooku expert so I'll let Rayla take that topic and run with it.

 

Mace on the other hand. Yes I agree he is repeatedly said to be second to Yoda. But your insistence that skill purely reflects saber usage and had no bearing on the use of the force, doesn't have me convinced.

 

As for fighting on par, it is exactly what is sounds like. A fight even enough to go either way, and the fact one or the other won is important to be sure, but we have to remember that Yoda is vastly superior in force ability. Since his saber usage is so heavily reliant on the force, if we tone down force usage to equal levels for all users then it stands to reason his ability will go down and he will lose the edge that allows him to pull out these wins.

 

As for age, alright he had the time...

 

I'm spit balling here, lemme get back to you with some actual facts if I may.

I'm not looking for a cookie, I'm looking for some consensus. It may not fit with your views and opinions on the matter but the fact is Yoda is a more skilled duelist than Windu. I'm sorry, but its the case, and your just going to have to accept that. We can't dispute that Sidious is the most powerful dark sider ever by exploiting loopholes here and there, and we can't do that here either. The facts couldn't be more concrete and absolute.

 

And for the record, fighting on par doesn't mean the fight can go either way. It means your able to go toe-to-toe with someone without getting slapped down. And really I can't believe that people are arguing Dooku over Yoda. Dooku mastered one form. Yoda mastered seven. The top bracket is reserved for the swordmasters, specialists don't cut it.

 

And please, stop pointing to Yoda's Force ability. Unless your capable of disputing my explanation of how it has no impact on ones's mastery over a lightsaber. Force ability cannot provide knowledge on lightsaber combat. Why is that so difficult to understand? Is it not blatantly obvious?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Yes, this seems to be the list so far, it's been hammered out over a quite protacted discussion (29 pages so far).

 

I would like to suggest Count Dount/Darth Tyrannus for position 5, he was a master duellist, but not quite as good as Sidious, certainly good enough to give Yoda and Mace a run for their money, but not good enough to beat them.

I would challenge Dooku's position with Vader. I don't feel a specialist can outclass a hybrid master on Vader's level.

 

But let's not get too ahead of ourselves. We can at least say Yoda > Windu. Its effectively canon and the arguments against it are just ignoring evidence and explanation already put forward. But Luke Skywalker is still an issue.

 

In response to Tunewalker. I'm not convinced he mastered all seven forms. To me it seems that Luke learned the basics from Yoda and Obi-Wan and then used this knowledge to develop new forms i.e. the strong style, the fast style, the medium style. However the very fact he had to do that displays that Luke simply didn't possess the resources to master the traditional forms to the level of mastery. So while yes, Luke is definitely an exceptional lightsaber duelist, his mastery over the seven lightsaber forms is too vague and general to compete with the likes of Windu and Yoda.

[tunewalker]

I would challenge Dooku's position with Vader. I don't feel a specialist can outclass a hybrid master on Vader's level.

 

But let's not get too ahead of ourselves. We can at least say Yoda > Windu. Its effectively canon and the arguments against it are just ignoring evidence and explanation already put forward. But Luke Skywalker is still an issue.

 

In response to Tunewalker. I'm not convinced he mastered all seven forms. To me it seems that Luke learned the basics from Yoda and Obi-Wan and then used this knowledge to develop new forms i.e. the strong style, the fast style, the medium style. However the very fact he had to do that displays that Luke simply didn't possess the resources to master the traditional forms to the level of mastery. So while yes, Luke is definitely an exceptional lightsaber duelist, his mastery over the seven lightsaber forms is too vague and general to compete with the likes of Windu and Yoda.

 

Those 3 styles came about as part of game mechanics as far as I can tell as their only appearance in any work is in the games Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast. The styles of combat being used are never talked about outside of game mechanics so as far as I can tell these are game forms only and aren't truly in existence and all were created before lightsaber combat and the forms were invented at all, thus they were just their to fulfill a game mechanic and up to this point no lightsaber forms had been invented yet.

 

I have kind of already said where his knowledge would have come from Obi-wans Journal, the holocrons he got from the Dathomir Witches in 8 ABY, the holocron he found at byss in 11 ABY as well as the Jensaarii run in later. it is known that he recovered information and or reinvented ALL lightsaber forms for the NJO to use.

 

 

Edit: also last I checked according to fight saber Luke was a Master of Djem So, Soresu and Ataru with usable knowledge of all other forms by RotJ no reason for him to go and make up new ones, and since the Stong, medium and fast style are technically just game mechanics they would technically be N-cannon.

Edited August 12, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

I'm not looking for a cookie, I'm looking for some consensus. It may not fit with your views and opinions on the matter but the fact is Yoda is a more skilled duelist than Windu. I'm sorry, but its the case, and your just going to have to accept that.

 

You may want to realise I have five sources to your two, all of them newer and it is clear that Yoda, Dooku and Windu were all on an equal playing field, there was never any clear superior between the three, Qui-Gon Jinn in his prime came close, but not close enough.

 

I think mastery over the form meant for lightsaber duels and a high enough proficiency in all the other forms to adapt them into his own version of Makashi is supreme, he could easily deflect and redirect multiple blaster wielding opponents, he used footwork to dance around younger, stronger and more agile users, whilst conserving energy and used a tactic of surprising retreat and a regular ability to disallow those users to get in close to him and refused them the close combat needed to lay down their own form's advantages, these forms being Ataru and Djem-So and at the age of 83 might I add, he was still as fit as anyone else.

 

Then of course we have the man that mastered every form to a degree no one else had ever or will ever achieve, he was a total master of all the other forms and completed the unfinished form and turned it from being the 'Sith form' in the opinion of Sith Lord Darth Sidious into a Dark Sider's worst nightmare, Mace Windu was the ultimate weapon against a Sith, it just was not good enough to kill the most powerful Sith and worse his shatterpoint backfired on him and was the reason he died.

 

And then we have a master of all forms, that refuses to use Form VII in any capacity and mastered the traditional Ataru form but only because and this is from himself, because he couldn't use the other forms meaningfully enough and so relied on the acrobatics of Ataru to make himself a viable combatant. He himself outright states he has to use Ataru to counter his height, he doesn't use anything else.

[Beniboybling]

You may want to realise I have five sources to your two, all of them newer and it is clear that Yoda, Dooku and Windu were all on an equal playing field, there was never any clear superior between the three, Qui-Gon Jinn in his prime came close, but not close enough.

 

I think mastery over the form meant for lightsaber duels and a high enough proficiency in all the other forms to adapt them into his own version of Makashi is supreme, he could easily deflect and redirect multiple blaster wielding opponents, he used footwork to dance around younger, stronger and more agile users, whilst conserving energy and used a tactic of surprising retreat and a regular ability to disallow those users to get in close to him and refused them the close combat needed to lay down their own form's advantages, these forms being Ataru and Djem-So and at the age of 83 might I add, he was still as fit as anyone else.

 

Then of course we have the man that mastered every form to a degree no one else had ever or will ever achieve, he was a total master of all the other forms and completed the unfinished form and turned it from being the 'Sith form' in the opinion of Sith Lord Darth Sidious into a Dark Sider's worst nightmare, Mace Windu was the ultimate weapon against a Sith, it just was not good enough to kill the most powerful Sith and worse his shatterpoint backfired on him and was the reason he died.

 

And then we have a master of all forms, that refuses to use Form VII in any capacity and mastered the traditional Ataru form but only because and this is from himself, because he couldn't use the other forms meaningfully enough and so relied on the acrobatics of Ataru to make himself a viable combatant. He himself outright states he has to use Ataru to counter his height, he doesn't use anything else.

Double standards much? I thought time had no bearing on the validity of canon statements. (It doesn't.) Isn't this the same argument being used by Legend to argue the Sith Emperor over Sidious? Anyway again you've yet to provide these sources, and I doubt they dispute the following:

 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

 

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

 

--Nick Gillard, Featurette from Star Wars Episode II: Attack Of The Clones.

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

 

That's four, and I'm managed to track down two of your sources as well:

 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

 

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

 

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

 

As you can see the first only reinforces Yoda's superiority over Windu, and the second states Dooku and Windu being near equals. Oh and note how Dooku, empowered by a dark side nexus, was still unable to overcome Yoda.

 

In the end, Yoda is being downplayed because he's old and small. Yet we are not taking physical capabilities into the equation here. Yoda could have no hands for all I care, he'd still be a master over all seven forms of lightsaber combat - regardless of whether he is able to apply them in battle effectively or not. We are not judging effectiveness here.

 

P.S. The feats you point to concerning Windu are the product of the Force form, not the lightsaber form.

 

EDIT: Also I don't see how this proves Vader's fighting style to be inferior to Dooku's. Unlike Dooku's it had no weaknesses and was not purely comprised of a single form.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Double standards much? I thought time had no bearing on the validity of canon statements. (It doesn't).

 

When an older source claims something contradictory to a newer source via clearly defined statements the newer source comes out on top, if an older source states Yoda is the best of the Jedi Order and others state he was an equal of two then it's a contradiction. LeGenD's argument failed to take in the fact that the SWTOR Encyclopedia only encompasses the Old Republic era and therefore contradicted nothing.

 

But by claiming I use double standards you've just sent me out of this thread, bye.

[Beniboybling]

When an older source claims something contradictory to a newer source via clearly defined statements the newer source comes out on top, if an older source states Yoda is the best of the Jedi Order and others state he was an equal of two then it's a contradiction. LeGenD's argument failed to take in the fact that the SWTOR Encyclopedia only encompasses the Old Republic era and therefore contradicted nothing.

 

But by claiming I use double standards you've just sent me out of this thread, bye.

...but they don't. I just demonstrated that. You can't just ignore the arguments in front of you.

[LadyKulvax]

You can't just ignore the arguments in front of you.

 

I haven't done anything of the sort and you have only taken in to account TWO sources out of FIVE.

 

But again, I won't be basically called biased in a thread, because I used what Leland Chee told us all to do when something newer contradicts something older with clearly defined statements, I already explained why LeGenD's argument failed to stand on it's own two feet and now I am being called biased for clearly pointing out a contradiction between older and newer sources.

Edited August 12, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

I haven't done anything of the sort and you have only taken in to account TWO sources out of FIVE.

 

But again, I won't be basically called biased in a thread, because I used what Leland Chee told us all to do when something newer contradicts something older with clearly defined statements, I already explained why LeGenD's argument failed to stand on it's own two feet and now I am being called biased for clearly pointing out a contradiction between older and newer sources.

Seriously? The only reason I've taken two out of five is because you've failed to put forward any quotes from any of those sources! What's clear about that? How can there be a contradiction if we don't even have any quotes to examine? I've manage to track down two of your sources and neither of them contradict what's being said here.

 

I highly doubt the others do as they would have no doubt consulted existing sources before making such claims. Especially if they come from Nick Gillard himself. Until you can provide these so called quotes that contradict existing canon, I'm afraid your argument remains invalid.

[LadyKulvax]

I have already explained why, but if arguments are only accepted when they have their sources quoted, well you won't be seeing much of me when half my collection is not available.

 

If others can get the quotes for me, I would be obliged.

 

Until then I will wait till you've calmed down and stopped being so aggressive to three people now.