The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[Beniboybling]

That's the top 4. You can keep saying Luke did this and that, but he hasn't done that one thing that sets Mace apart. He didn't develop A NEW STYLE. Mace did.

But your making the assumption here that Mace mastered the remaining forms to a greater extent than Yoda.

[tunewalker]

And you don't understand Vaapad. It's about taking the darkness of a dark force user, and channeling their power back at them through the use of a lightsaber. It's almost like a force channeling form V with some unpredictable maneuvers thrown in.

 

Sorry you won't convince me that Luke is superior to Mace, he might of mastered all 7 forms by the time he became grand master, but he didn't create one from scratch and then turn around and master it. Mace did. No other duelest we are arguing about has done so.

 

Sorry jumps Mace right to the top of the list IMO. Reason why mace was a Weaponsmaster. Buck went no further than he when it came to lightsaber fighting.

 

Why the list should look like:

 

1. Mace

2. Yoda

3. Luke

4. Sideous

 

That's the top 4. You can keep saying Luke did this and that, but he hasn't done that one thing that sets Mace apart. He didn't develop A NEW STYLE. Mace did.

 

Technically he did it just didn't have a name, Yoda is G-cannon more skilled then Windu so Windu cant be at the top of the list. And you just said it Vaapad uses another darksiders energy and channels it through the body but it still requires a lot of the users own power.

 

"Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power essential to all variations of Form VII as another prerequisite for its use. The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer"

 

right here tells you Vaapad does need force power of the user to operate.

[TalonVII]

Technically he did it just didn't have a name, Yoda is G-cannon more skilled then Windu so Windu cant be at the top of the list. And you just said it Vaapad uses another darksiders energy and channels it through the body but it still requires a lot of the users own power.

 

"Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power essential to all variations of Form VII as another prerequisite for its use. The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer"

 

right here tells you Vaapad does need force power of the user to operate.

 

Any lightsaber form requires the force to operate! Hell just using a lightsaber like a sith/jedi requires the force! That part where Luke was deflecting AT-AT bolts minus the force, that was simply bad writing IMO and not really knowing how the force in relation to a light saber works.

 

Luke would of needed the force to strengthen his arms, otherwise the force of those blows should of literally shattered his arms, if not completely torn his arms off. Sorry I consider that scene just HORRIBLE writing and not understanding the force.

[tunewalker]

Any lightsaber form requires the force to operate! Hell just using a lightsaber like a sith/jedi requires the force! That part where Luke was deflecting AT-AT bolts minus the force, that was simply bad writing IMO and not really knowing how the force in relation to a light saber works.

 

Luke would of needed the force to strengthen his arms, otherwise the force of those blows should of literally shattered his arms, if not completely torn his arms off. Sorry I consider that scene just HORRIBLE writing and not understanding the force.

 

Well grievous uses lightsaber though he lacks the force, we see bounty hunters use them on occasion normally not that well and even there is also Pre Vizsla, and whether you like it or not bad writing or not it happened Luke did it and was successful clearly he had the physical strength (don't forget prosthetic hand) and more importantly he had the skill to do so with out the force. Its just noted that form VII requires a larger pool of force energy then most forms, Ataru pulls heavily on the force, Djem So is more physically demanding then force demanding and Vaapad and juyo require " a barely contained explosion of Force power"

 

So now since I have shown its need for large amount of force power you just want to discount a feat of Luke's as proof of his skill.

[Beniboybling]

Shall we just focus on lightsaber ability? It should be noted that Luke actually reinvented the lightsaber forms in terms of the strong style, fast style and medium style. Yet despite this, I feel his mastery can go only so far. Skywalker is only ever noted to have a rudimentary knowledge of this form and that, while his primary focus seems to be the strong style which is simply not as refined as the traditional forms.

[AlexDougherty]

And you don't understand Vaapad. It's about taking the darkness of a dark force user, and channeling their power back at them through the use of a lightsaber. It's almost like a force channeling form V with some unpredictable maneuvers thrown in.

 

Sorry you won't convince me that Luke is superior to Mace, he might of mastered all 7 forms by the time he became grand master, but he didn't create one from scratch and then turn around and master it. Mace did. No other duelest we are arguing about has done so.

 

You can keep saying Luke did this and that, but he hasn't done that one thing that sets Mace apart. He didn't develop A NEW STYLE. Mace did.

Actually he did, sort of, Luke created his own hybrid form, it wasn't as refined as Vaapad, but it was a new form, it was more versatile than Vaapad though. Vaapad is only useful against darksiders, Luke's Hybrid form was useful against anyone. That said Vaapad was a more impressive creation IMO.

Sorry jumps Mace right to the top of the list IMO. Reason why mace was a Weaponsmaster. Buck went no further than he when it came to lightsaber fighting.

Yes, Mace was always a contender for the first spot, he was a lightsaber specialist.

 

{On a sidenote a weponsmaster is technically skilled with a range of weapons, Jedi were either swordsmasters or bladesmasters.}

Shall we just focus on lightsaber ability? It should be noted that Luke actually reinvented the lightsaber forms in terms of the strong style, fast style and medium style. Yet despite this, I feel his mastery can go only so far. Skywalker is only ever noted to have a rudimentary knowledge of this form and that, while his primary focus seems to be the strong style which is simply not as refined as the traditional forms.

Yes, Luke did prefer strength in his fighting, even his Hybrid Form was more focused on strength and speed rather than subtlety and nuance. And both Yoda and Mace were capable of sublety and nuance in their duelling, mind you Vaapad as it was shown in the film appeared to have a focus on strength and speed too.

Edited August 10, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

Yes, Luke did prefer strength in his fighting, even his Hybrid Form was more focused on strength and speed rather than subtlety and nuance. And both Yoda and Mace were capable of sublety and nuance in their duelling, mind you Vaapad as it was shown in the film appeared to have a focus on strength and speed too.

That wasn't my point. My point was the Luke does not seem to be all too well versed in the traditional lightsaber forms on the same level of Yoda and Windu.

[AlexDougherty]

That wasn't my point. My point was the Luke does not seem to be all too well versed in the traditional lightsaber forms on the same level of Yoda and Windu.

 

I know, I didn't come across well, I appreciate that Yoda and Mace were better practices at the other forms, and that those forms were more subtle and refined, while Luke focused on strength and speed. I agree that while Luke was skilled he lacked polish.

 

The comment about Vaapad, was that strength and speed are the focus of this form too, and that Vaapad was Mace Windu's personal form, so he might not be as polished as Yoda either.

[LadyKulvax]

Mace Windu has mastered and used far more than Vaapad and shown an ability with Ataru that is immense, before Vaapad he was a master at Ataru and Makashi.

 

Yoda overall is more powerful, but in Lightsaber duels, take away his Force Speed and he's just not going to be able to fight adequately.

[Beniboybling]

Mace Windu has mastered and used far more than Vaapad and shown an ability with Ataru that is immense, before Vaapad he was a master at Ataru and Makashi.

 

Yoda overall is more powerful, but in Lightsaber duels, take away his Force Speed and he's just not going to be able to fight adequately.

But take away his Force speed, and you still have a master of all seven lightsaber forms who was mastered Ataru to the nth degree. We need to stop stripping duelists of their Force abilities and then judging how well they would do. People are again taking the fact that Force powers should be discounted to the extreme.

 

The speed and strength by which you execute an attack has no bearing at all on how well executed said attack was. So while yes we shouldn't count Yoda's Force valor towards his lightsaber ability. Neither should we disregard his lightsaber ability because he uses the Force to bolster their potency. The connection is not there.

 

Anyway, on topic, Yoda was an absolute master of Ataru and likely mastered the other forms to a greater extent that Windu. I don't feel completing the Juyo form makes up for this. Effectively Yoda is an absolute master of Form IV and Windu an absolute master of Form VII. However Yoda's master of the other forms grant him an edge.

[LadyKulvax]

Their are two assumptions here:

 

1.That Yoda doesn't use Force Speed during his duels, he does, he uses it a LOT, without it he is an old man that requires a walking stick, not the legendary swordsmaster, to keep up with others he needs to use Force Speed, this is stated in both AOTC and ROTS, if he doesn't he simply cant keep up, after all his duels he recognises his severe fatigue.

 

2.That Yoda mastered the other forms greater than Windu did, he didn't Yoda, Windu, Dooku and Palpatine were on equal terms, each had a weakness, but they were all absolute equals, Dooku's edge was his finesse and fitness, Windu's edge was Vaapad and Shatterpoints, Yoda and Sidious shared the same edge, Force Speed and it allowed them to keep up and more often than not, totally out-pace others.

[Beniboybling]

Their are two assumptions here:

 

1.That Yoda doesn't use Force Speed during his duels, he does, he uses it a LOT, without it he is an old man that requires a walking stick, not the legendary swordsmaster, to keep up with others he needs to use Force Speed, this is stated in both AOTC and ROTS, if he doesn't he simply cant keep up, after all his duels he recognises his severe fatigue.

 

2.That Yoda mastered the other forms greater than Windu did, he didn't Yoda, Windu, Dooku and Palpatine were on equal terms, each had a weakness, but they were all absolute equals, Dooku's edge was his finesse and fitness, Windu's edge was Vaapad and Shatterpoints, Yoda and Sidious shared the same edge, Force Speed and it allowed them to keep up and more often than not, totally out-pace others.

1. I never said he didn't. I'm just pointing out the fact its entirely irrelevant unless assessing a lightsaber duel. He may need Force valor to execute his attacks, but ultimately it is his mastery over lightsaber combat which allows him to know how to execute said attack. Age doesn't come into it, Force abilities don't come into it. Let's not bring them up.

 

2. According to multiple canon sources, he did. He was touted as the greatest swordmaster in the Jedi Order.

[tunewalker]

Ok I think final argument from me for Luke.

 

By RotJ he was equal in skill to his father, holding him off while wanting to not fight at all and mirroring his form perfectly. Since I am positive Vader is a top contender for 5 that means RotJ Luke is already top 5 material.

 

6 years later, he faces the emperor in a younger body and loses the first duel while he is using the dark side and ends up allowing the emperor to lead him around and take the high ground. In his second duel after he turns back from the dark he has a clearer head on his shoulders and doesn't allow palp's to get the high ground this time besting him Leia describing the 2 similarly to the way Sidious and Yoda were described in their duel but Luke wins cutting off Sidious's hand. Showing that Luke at this time likely had similar force power to Yoda, this is mostly confirmed when he needs a small amount of Leia's help to over come sidious's force powers showing that luke was still weaker in the force. So by 10 ABY Luke is already showing top 3 candidacy possibly number 1 by this point.

 

It would still be 1 year before he sets up the praxium and for around 15 years after that he would spend most of his time their training students and refining his own abilities. We can see this with the Jedi Academy game when they talk about the how lucky Jaden is that the saber droid was not set to Luke's training regiment. We even see Luke get better and better each time he leaves the academy, if he was easily one of the top 3 and close to both Yoda and Windu in 10 ABY there is no way after 15 more years of continual training and refining that he hasn't surpassed both of them, let alone another 35 years.

[StarSquirrel]

Showing that Luke at this time likely had similar force power to Yoda, this is mostly confirmed when he needs a small amount of Leia's help to over come sidious's force powers showing that luke was still weaker in the force.

This is exactly the issue, we don't care about their force power here... Luke was powerful enough but we never actually have any accounts of him mastering forms aside from building on his own Djem So form. We take that all purely on speculation iirc.

 

That said, The argument for Mace boils down to this. As Weaponmaster of the PT order, he' mastered all the form as well as created Vaapad and had trained his entire life with them. Yoda required the force to even put his skill to work, and the fact he outmatched Mace is this area means he could augment his saber skills enough to outmatch Mace (using the force) in lightsaber skills.

 

If we brought everyone being suggested to the same level of force power, we'd see a distinct Knowledge, Skill, and Physicality edge for Windu over every other competitor.

Edited August 11, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

This is exactly the issue, we don't care about their force power here... Luke was powerful enough but we never actually have any accounts of him mastering forms aside from building on his own Djem So form. We take that all purely on speculation iirc.

 

That said, The argument for Mace boils down to this. As Weaponmaster of the PT order, he' mastered all the form as well as created Vaapad and had trained his entire life with them. Yoda required the force to even put his skill to work, and the fact he outmatched Mace is this area means he could augment his saber skills enough to outmatch Mace (using the force) in lightsaber skills.

 

If we brought everyone being suggested to the same level of force power, we'd see a distinct Knowledge, Skill, and Physicality edge for Windu over every other competitor.

We can't discredit Yoda for being small and old. He may need the Force to apply his skills effectively, but they are still there. I'd also point out that Yoda has had 900 years to study the forms.

 

And as Yoda is touted as a superior lightsaber duelist we can assume they are not taking Force powers into account. And really I can see Yoda mastering the seven other lightsaber forms to a greater extent than Windu.

 

I find it difficult to comment on Luke. However his impossibly steep learning curve would suggest he'd have mastered all seven lightsaber forms incredibly quickly. And it should be noted that, while being aided by Leia's battle meditation, Sidious remained the more powerful Force user in the duel he beat him in.

 

I also give him a great deal of credit for developing a hybrid form superior to Vader's after only a few years of training.

[TalonVII]

We can't discredit Yoda for being small and old. He may need the Force to apply his skills effectively, but they are still there. I'd also point out that Yoda has had 900 years to study the forms.

 

And as Yoda is touted as a superior lightsaber duelist we can assume they are not taking Force powers into account. And really I can see Yoda mastering the seven other lightsaber forms to a greater extent than Windu.

 

I find it difficult to comment on Luke. However his impossibly steep learning curve would suggest he'd have mastered all seven lightsaber forms incredibly quickly. And it should be noted that, while being aided by Leia's battle meditation, Sidious remained the more powerful Force user in the duel he beat him in.

 

I also give him a great deal of credit for developing a hybrid form superior to Vader's after only a few years of training.

 

Oh I don't discount what you said, nor diminish the fact that Luke with VERY little formal training went saber to saber with Darth Vader and eventually beat him as basically a neophyte Jedi Knight. THAT IS AN AMAZING FEAT.

 

And to go with tune, before he rebuilt the jedi, he spent well 10 years searching for jedi knowledge and came across many holocrons, and I am sure some of them were on lightsaber combat. I mean take for example the student that tried to attack Luke with a dual phase lightsaber in first champions of the force book. Only reason Luke knew what it was, was because of those holocrons.

 

Personally I don't think Luke mastered all forms. He didn't. HOWEVER, he did take all the forms and distill it down into his own style, and that's what you see in Jedi Knight, Jedi Academy with the Fast, medium, and strong forms. That's the hybrid style that Luke created, it was basically taking all forms and distilling it down into that. Why in the later generations of the force you don't see the 7 Lightsaber forms. You just see lightsaber combat as taught to the jedi by Luke Skywalker.

 

Having said all that, strip the top 4 down to ability with a blade, to me Mace stands top of the pile. Yoda IMO was the best all around Master, he was just as skilled with a blade as he was with the force turning him into an amazing duelest.

 

Mace wasn't as strong with the force as Sideous and Yoda, it's confirmed as much. But the fact he could fight at their level and in the case of sideous beating him, shows he had more skill with the blade than he did with the force and guess what, it showed. Why he beat Sideous head to head with a saber.

[Beniboybling]

That doesn't change the fact that Yoda was more skilled with the blade, he may have been enslaved to form but but evidently his mastery of the basics surpasses Windu's mastery. Windu certainly gets credit for making up for the short fall in terms of Force ability but that doesn't change the aforementioned.

 

EDIT: We also need to look deeper at Vaapad. It is essentially a lightsaber form and a Force form. The Force form being accepting the aggression of one's opponent and channelling it into lightsaber combat - through the Force. This is what allowed Windu to fight on par with Sidious, not personal lightsaber ability, but his ability to effectively siphon his opponents Force energy. We should therefore judge him on the merits of the lightsaber form alone.

 

And I feel perfecting Juyo, partly through making it a Force form, does not surpass his inferior mastery of the other forms compared to Yoda. He has an edge in one form while Yoda arguably has an edge in the remaining six.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

I still don't see concrete statements that in out-and-out lightsaber duels, that Yoda is flat out better than Windu, I think Yoda's skill itself works hand-in-hand with his immense Force Speed, the same with Luke and with Sidious, Windu however has no such asset, he is instead purely about bladework.

 

Which is why I nominate Dooku for no.2, not only is he the finest Makashi practitioner ever, he maintained this ability despite his great age and unlike his apprentice, didn't let his age weigh down his fitness, he could regularly defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi, he could regularly defeat Anakin Skywalker, he trained an apprentice to the point where she was considered unbeatable by any Jedi but two.

 

Dooku only lost to Anakin and Obi-Wan because they purposefully used less refined methods and effectively laid a trap for him, they let him take control of the battle, but they then switched to their own masteries of Soresu and Djem-So, Anakin beat him because he made him think he'd already won basically.

 

Then of course we have duels throughout the Clone Wars where Dooku regularly trashes Anakin.

 

This Jedi Master turned Sith Lord was trained under Yoda and Sidious and he took the form for lightsaber combat to the maximum level, which no one beforehand ever did.

 

Dooku used the Force to the minimum in his engagements and relied solely on footwork, balance and lightsaber finesse, he was still more than a match for anybody in his time, he like the others had a well-known working knowledge of every other lightsaber form.

[StarSquirrel]

I still don't see concrete statements that in out-and-out lightsaber duels, that Yoda is flat out better than Windu, I think Yoda's skill itself works hand-in-hand with his immense Force Speed, the same with Luke and with Sidious, Windu however has no such asset, he is instead purely about bladework.

 

Which is why I nominate Dooku for no.2, not only is he the finest Makashi practitioner ever, he maintained this ability despite his great age and unlike his apprentice, didn't let his age weigh down his fitness, he could regularly defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi, he could regularly defeat Anakin Skywalker, he trained an apprentice to the point where she was considered unbeatable by any Jedi but two.

 

Dooku only lost to Anakin and Obi-Wan because they purposefully used less refined methods and effectively laid a trap for him, they let him take control of the battle, but they then switched to their own masteries of Soresu and Djem-So, Anakin beat him because he made him think he'd already won basically.

 

Then of course we have duels throughout the Clone Wars where Dooku regularly trashes Anakin.

 

This Jedi Master turned Sith Lord was trained under Yoda and Sidious and he took the form for lightsaber combat to the maximum level, which no one beforehand ever did.

 

Dooku used the Force to the minimum in his engagements and relied solely on footwork, balance and lightsaber finesse, he was still more than a match for anybody in his time, he like the others had a well-known working knowledge of every other lightsaber form.

 

A fantastic argument for Dooku and I think we're on the same page here Rayla. It's just that so many Jedi/Sith imbue their massive force power into their style to take full advantage of it. Because some practitioners didn't do this to as great of an extent (Windu, Dooku) they had to compensate by being better at their forms. This imo, places Windu and Dooku ahead of many who might wipe the floor with them where force powers to come heavily into play.

 

Also, Beni as to Yoda's age (thus experience). I was wondering when that would come into play, and honestly the biggest point I have to counter that is twofold. One, he was much more a sage, a philosopher, and a leader. These are the things he focused on so saber combat would be less of a major focus for him meaning it would be possible for someone perhaps more talented who focused diligently on mastering the forms to surpass him in technique. Also, Yoda never uses Vaapad or Juyo which is often considered (by yoda himself) the deadliest and most unpredictable form. So Mace has that card up his sleeve.

 

Also, Luke's learning curve was great I'll give him that. But he never displays a mastery of the forms or uses any form besides his own heavily force-augmented Djem So, so I hesitate to call him a master swordsman when so much of his power is derived from the force.

[tunewalker]

I am glad to see the point that I was making for the fight between Luke and Sidious was completely missed, the point was Luke was NOT more powerful then Sidious and still beat him in a saber duel meaning that he was already getting close to both Yoda and Windu. more then 15 years before hitting his prime. Again you take them down a notch of force powers and Windu has just as large an issue wielding Vaapad as the other 2 have wielding theirs. I would still give the edge to Luke in this regard.

 

 

 

And the whole Luke never used any of the other forms go back a few I have shown him using nearly all seven forms so yes he has used and shown a mastery of all seven forms, more then I can say for Yoda and Mace since they seemed to just stick with their forms.

Edited August 11, 2013 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

I am glad to see the point that I was making for the fight between Luke and Sidious was completely missed, the point was Luke was NOT more powerful then Sidious and still beat him in a saber duel meaning that he was already getting close to both Yoda and Windu. more then 15 years before hitting his prime. Again you take them down a notch of force powers and Windu has just as large an issue wielding Vaapad as the other 2 have wielding theirs. I would still give the edge to Luke in this regard.

 

 

 

And the whole Luke never used any of the other forms go back a few I have shown him using nearly all seven forms so yes he has used and shown a mastery of all seven forms, more then I can say for Yoda and Mace since they seemed to just stick with their forms.

Sorry Tune, I just don't see Sidious breaking the top 3 or 4 right now so I don't see Luke beating him as such an impressive feat. That was as much force power as skill and so it is hard to judge ability in that context.

 

As for Mace, no Vaapad is an extension of Juyo so it doesn't *require* the force to use it effectively. Extra force energy just makes it invincible against DS users (note: Juyo is a known and effective jedi killing form). Juyo as a form itself is unpredictable to the opponent (meaning Mace can trap and manipulate the fight especially since he'll know the opponent's next move thanks to his mastery of the other forms). Maul used it, Bane used it ect... and these guys are considered superior duelists yet even they never mastered Juyo so imagine what a master could do. Juyo is widely considered the best form, the reason more don't use it is LS users fall and DS users can go insane. Mace danced on the razors edge so much he was at home with it. He was the epitome of Saber combat imo.

 

Also, can you tell me the post # or page please Tune? I couldn't find the post you mention, if Luke really did use all forms (individually not elements into his hybrid) I'd be interested and it might change my position a tad bit.

 

Oh and Ganner Rhysode should get an honorable mention. His last stand was far and away my favorite part of the NJO series full stop. (either here or in the most powerful Jedi or Force Users thread.)

 

EDIT: 28 pages and 271 posts in and we're still debating #1

Edited August 11, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Yoda's use of Force valour goes just as hand in hand with his Ataru as Windu's Force form goes in hand with Vaapad. Yet despite this in both cases both have an incredible level of mastery over the lightsaber form itself. I cannot stress this enough, Force power has no effect whatsoever on one's mastery over a form. You can move as fast and be as strong as you like bit ultimately it takes study, practice and experience to know how to apply a lightsaber form.

 

We cannot dismiss the technical mastery it would take to perform an attack primarily formed of su ma rotations without hitting a wall, falling over your feet or getting sliced in half. And that's without taking into account actually performing a potent and precise attack in congruence with said spins. I'd say Ataru is one of the most difficult forms to master. Indeed the Jedi Path discourages its use by Padawans who are simply incapable of mastering it. Do you think if they possessed and unlocked the power if the Chosen One they'd be flipping about like Yoda and dominating the likes of Dooku in a lightsaber duel? No. They'd be falling over themselves and likely stab themselves with their own blade.

 

Yes, when assessing lightsaber duels we should take into account the fact that Yoda may simply be moving too fast and attacking too strongly for an opponent to fight back. But when Yoda is touted as a swordsmaster, an absolute master of Ataru and a better lightsaber duelist than Windu, we cannot dismiss it as the product of exceptional Force ability, else we fall into the ridiculous Padawan logic.

 

Again, if I were super strong and super fast and armed with a sword I'm sure I could chop you in two before you can say midichlorians but if you told me to perform a su ma rotation or execute the primary moves of Shii Cho I'd flop. And if I started learning karate I wouldn't progress any faster than the next person, sure I'd ROFLstomp just about anyone in a fight with super strength and speed. But that wouldn't make me a more skilled fighter, just a more powerful one. Being a powerful fighter does not grant you any measure of combat skill.

 

Indeed, Yoda is only able to use Force valor to such a remarkable extent because he had mastered the form. I present the example of the Sith Emperor, uber-powerful Force user, crap duelist. By the logic being applied here he'd be an Ataru king. But he does not possesses the skill so no matter how powerful he is his lightsaber skills will never improve.

 

So yes, it can be said that Yoda was able to beat Dooku and Sidious because of his Force ability. And yes said Force ability definitely makes him a more powerful lightsaber duelist. But, when touted as a master lightsaber duelist, a master of Ataru and a more skilled duelist than Windu. This is entirely exclusive of Force power. Period.

 

In light of this, let's revisit two particular Canon statements made in relation to Yoda's ability:

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

 

I highlighted the word skill for a reason. The dictionary definition of skill:

 

'The ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well.'

 

...exclusive of Force ability, one's force ability does not improve these faculties. Effectively these statements are therefore saying Yoda's ability - coming from his knowledge, practice, aptitude etc. - to wield a lightsaber well are second to none i.e. he possesses greater skill than Windu. Which is exactly what this thread is addressing.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I still don't see concrete statements that in out-and-out lightsaber duels, that Yoda is flat out better than Windu, I think Yoda's skill itself works hand-in-hand with his immense Force Speed, the same with Luke and with Sidious, Windu however has no such asset, he is instead purely about bladework.

 

Which is why I nominate Dooku for no.2, not only is he the finest Makashi practitioner ever, he maintained this ability despite his great age and unlike his apprentice, didn't let his age weigh down his fitness, he could regularly defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi, he could regularly defeat Anakin Skywalker, he trained an apprentice to the point where she was considered unbeatable by any Jedi but two.

 

Dooku only lost to Anakin and Obi-Wan because they purposefully used less refined methods and effectively laid a trap for him, they let him take control of the battle, but they then switched to their own masteries of Soresu and Djem-So, Anakin beat him because he made him think he'd already won basically.

 

Then of course we have duels throughout the Clone Wars where Dooku regularly trashes Anakin.

 

This Jedi Master turned Sith Lord was trained under Yoda and Sidious and he took the form for lightsaber combat to the maximum level, which no one beforehand ever did.

 

Dooku used the Force to the minimum in his engagements and relied solely on footwork, balance and lightsaber finesse, he was still more than a match for anybody in his time, he like the others had a well-known working knowledge of every other lightsaber form.

I don't know about Dooku. He mastered Makashi to a high degree but his mastery went no further than that. Whereas Yoda mastered Ataru to arguably a higher degree and then went on to master all the other forms as well - indeed Yoda defeats Dooku in a lightsaber duel not simply through superior Force ability, but through superior skill as well.

 

And then we have the case of Darth Sidious. Who being a Sith Swordsmaster I feel should be the first Sith Lord to make any list. He may have augmented his ability with the Force but that doesn't alter the fact that he was a master of every form and combat stance and his tactics were flawless.

 

And then we have Vader, who's hybrid form I feel outclasses Dooku's sole mastery of Makashi. He may claim to not be enslaved to form but the fact remains he failed to use his mastery to removes the glaring weaknesses in his style i.e. its ineffectiveness against power attacks. While Vader's form had no weaknesses.

 

Heck I might even throw Kenobi in there. THE master of Soresu and on top of that a highly skilled mastery of Ataru - able to use it not only in a confined space but against multiple opponents and win. These opponents being the deadly Maul and Savage - fighting against the primary weaknesses of his form.

 

Dooku is no doubt a strong candidate, but #2 I feel it two high. I don't feel a lightsaber duelist who failed to overcome all the weaknesses of his style outranks those who did.

[LadyKulvax]

There are also five separate sources that state Yoda, Dooku and Windu were all equals in lightsaber proficiency, each with their own advantages and weaknesses.

[Beniboybling]

There are also five separate sources that state Yoda, Dooku and Windu were all equals in lightsaber proficiency, each with their own advantages and weaknesses.

I'd be interested to see these sources.