The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[crqp]

Well Yoda in the clone Wars Defeated Droid tanks and even more droids on felucia. So i think that if yoda taught Luke his skills then that would mean Luke is better than mace because Yoda has beaten Mace. So we have the Emperor. Luke beat him but as an apprentice he was very strong in lighsaber combat. So evidently it goes

 

 

1 Yoda

2 Mace

3 Luke

4 Emperor

 

You might be wondering why Luke is third i will tell you why. Everyone says Mace was good and kind've made his own lightsaber form so he is second. yoda is first because he couldn't teach Luke everything. But Luke killed the Emperor so he is last. There.

Edited August 9, 2013 by crqp

[wuzzuliki]

It's tough but I'd say Yoda first then Mace. Although Yoda vs Vapaad ... that might be interesting.

 

 

To be brutally honest, I just would rather see Luke lose at something. It annoys me how he makes the top of the list for everything haha. Not because i hate the character, but I'd rather Yoda or Mace take the top spot because of their fully described combat abilities.

Edited August 9, 2013 by wuzzuliki

[LadyKulvax]

I agree with Beni, take away force speed and force valor from Sidious, Yoda and Luke, I would bet my arm that Windu would beat them all, he doesn't use the Force for his battles, he uses the most perfected lightsaber form ever seen, which he invented(with the help of Sora Bulq).

[Beniboybling]

I agree with Beni, take away force speed and force valor from Sidious, Yoda and Luke, I would bet my arm that Windu would beat them all, he doesn't use the Force for his battles, he uses the most perfected lightsaber form ever seen, which he invented(with the help of Sora Bulq).

If we take the quotes at face value it should be:

 

1. Luke Skywalker

2. Yoda

3. Mace Windu

 

or otherwise:

 

1. Mace Windu

2. Luke Skywalker

3. Yoda.

[StarSquirrel]

If we take the quotes at face value it should be:

 

1. Luke Skywalker

2. Yoda

3. Mace Windu

 

or otherwise:

 

1. Mace Windu

2. Luke Skywalker

3. Yoda.

 

I like #2 lets go with that

 

In all seriousness, Luke, Yoda, and Sidious relied heavily on their superior force ability working in tandem with their saber skills to be as deadly as they where. Take the overwhelming force power advantage away and I can see Mace teaching each of them a lesson (he already did to one). If anything I'd say Yoda would be the one I'd see putting up the greatest fight.

 

I also stand beside Yoda's quote that Form VII was the deadliest and Windu is a Master of it.

Edited August 9, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[LadyKulvax]

If we take the quotes at face value it should be:

 

1. Luke Skywalker

2. Yoda

3. Mace Windu

 

or otherwise:

 

1. Mace Windu

2. Luke Skywalker

3. Yoda.

 

Don't know about others here, but I only take quotes with an absolute context, not a variable context as 100% fact.

 

Add the Force Speed and Force Valor in, I am sure your first list would be true, take those two powers away however and I would bet the second list is true.

[Aurbere]

I'm sticking with Yoda above Mace, but I suppose it could go either way.

[Beniboybling]

Well its a question of whether Luke and Yoda's mastery over the conventional lightsaber outweigh Windu's mastery of said forms on top of his mastery of the arguably perfect form - Vaapad.

[TalonVII]

Well its a question of whether Luke and Yoda's mastery over the conventional lightsaber outweigh Windu's mastery of said forms on top of his mastery of the arguably perfect form - Vaapad.

 

Well Vaapad is the perfect form against the DARK side, not just the force. I don't think Vaapad is perfect.

 

Remember people, there are not dangerous forms, just dangerous people who take said forum to their limit.

 

Now having said that, strip away most of the force from the top 4. Most dangerous[since he relies on it the least] is Mace Windu. Luke many times uses the force in lightsaber combat without thinking, and Yoda sans the force he'd be at a SEVERE disadvantage. Sideous, could challenge Mace, but again he relies more upon the force than his saber skills.

 

Mace is the other way around, which is another factor why I think Mace is #1 on the list.

Edited August 9, 2013 by TalonVII

[Beniboybling]

Well Vaapad is the perfect form against the DARK side, not just the force. I don't think Vaapad is perfect.

 

Remember people, there are not dangerous forms, just dangerous people who take said forum to their limit.

 

Now having said that, strip away most of the force from the top 4. Most dangerous[since he relies on it the least] is Mace Windu. Luke many times uses the force in lightsaber combat without thinking, and Yoda sans the force he'd be at a SEVERE disadvantage. Sideous, could challenge Mace, but again he relies more upon the force than his saber skills.

 

Mace is the other way around, which is another factor why I think Mace is #1 on the list.

I don't think we should think of this in the sense that, strip away their Force powers and how do they do, but simply not take their Force abilities into account. Force abilities or not, Yoda remains a master duelist.

[Beniboybling]

These are my current thoughts on the matter:

 

Windu was an exceptional lightsaber duelist who mastered all seven lightsaber forms and developed his own form, Vaapad, which not only showed a remarkable knowledge and understanding of the forms, but also proved the most effective weapon against the Sith threat that a Jedi could possess.

 

However evidence would seem to indicate that Yoda, and perhaps Luke Skywalker, achieved greater mastery than Windu over the conventional lightsaber forms. With Yoda being noted on several occasions to be the greatest lightsaber duelist in the Jedi Order - with Windu being equally noted to be second to him.

 

Indeed the primary reason that Windu, and only Windu, managed to master Vaapad was because unlike Yoda and Luke he enjoyed fighting. Luke and Yoda simply didn't possess the necessary mentality to master such a form. And those who did could not control themselves and fell to the dark side.

 

Now yes, the point can be made that Windu, and only Windu, possessed the necessary mentality and the necessary control to walk the line between light and dark and therefore achieve lightsaber dueling mastery on a level that others, dedicated to one side of the Force, simply couldn't do. However to that I would retort that such individuals i.e. Luke and Yoda, supplemented this by being incredibly skilled in the remaining forms.

 

Yoda and Luke are more 'reliant' on their Force abilities to bolster their combat effectiveness. However this does not have an impact on their saber mastery. When one is touted as a master lightsaber duelist, that is the case regardless of Force ability. In the end it means they have perfected the application of certain maneuvers that make up the forms.

 

Their Force abilities simply increase the speed and strength by which these moves are applied. But mastery is a totally different matter. I would therefore propose Yoda over Windu, as it would seem that he achieved greater mastery over the conventional forms than Windu, his mastery over Ataru and Soresu in particular were unmatched.

 

That said we are taking Luke's mastery for granted here. Did Luke master all seven lightsaber forms? Or are we simply assuming this is the case because, well, he's Luke. Noting that you don't need to be an absolute master of lightsaber combat to defeat the likes of Lumiya and Darth Vader. More information would be helpful.

[Beniboybling]

Don't know about others here, but I only take quotes with an absolute context, not a variable context as 100% fact.

 

Add the Force Speed and Force Valor in, I am sure your first list would be true, take those two powers away however and I would bet the second list is true.

What do you mean 'variable context'?

[LadyKulvax]

What do you mean 'variable context'?

 

Because when you can apply two different meanings to a quote, it's not exactly absolute is it?

[Beniboybling]

Because when you can apply two different meanings to a quote, it's not exactly absolute is it?

Well I'm starting to think they are absolute. I don't believe lightsaber mastery can take into account Force ability. Being able to strike faster and stronger than your opponent, does not have an effect on how well applied said strike was.

[tunewalker]

Take away their force powers and Luke is like he was among the Ysalmari when (according to alex's information) he still managed to deflect multiple blaster bolts even from something as large and with as heavy guns as an AT-AT, I know in the thrawn trilogy he killed several of those creatures in the Mryrkr forests while under the effects of Ysalmari with nothing but his lightsaber, so I wouldn't be to sure if you took away force powers that windu could defeat Luke in a 1v1 lightsaber battle after all Windu was an incredibly powerful force user as well, and Vaapad was as much a force form as it was a lightsaber form in addition Vaapad specifically states that it uses up a lot of force power when wielding it.

[AlexDougherty]

These are my current thoughts on the matter:

 

Windu was an exceptional lightsaber duelist who mastered all seven lightsaber forms and developed his own form, Vaapad, which not only showed a remarkable knowledge and understanding of the forms, but also proved the most effective weapon against the Sith threat that a Jedi could possess.

 

However to that I would retort that such individuals i.e. Luke and Yoda, supplemented this by being incredibly skilled in the remaining forms.

 

Yoda and Luke are more 'reliant' on their Force abilities to bolster their combat effectiveness. However this does not have an impact on their saber mastery. When one is touted as a master lightsaber duelist, that is the case regardless of Force ability. In the end it means they have perfected the application of certain maneuvers that make up the forms.

 

Their Force abilities simply increase the speed and strength by which these moves are applied. But mastery is a totally different matter. I would therefore propose Yoda over Windu, as it would seem that he achieved greater mastery over the conventional forms than Windu, his mastery over Ataru and Soresu in particular were unmatched.

 

That said we are taking Luke's mastery for granted here. Did Luke master all seven lightsaber forms?

Well Vaapad is the perfect form against the DARK side, not just the force. I don't think Vaapad is perfect.

 

Remember people, there are not dangerous forms, just dangerous people who take said forum to their limit.

 

Now having said that, strip away most of the force from the top 4. Most dangerous[since he relies on it the least] is Mace Windu. Luke many times uses the force in lightsaber combat without thinking, and Yoda sans the force he'd be at a SEVERE disadvantage. Sideous, could challenge Mace, but again he relies more upon the force than his saber skills.

 

Mace is the other way around, which is another factor why I think Mace is #1 on the list.

Luke certainly mastered forms 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Can't say for certain if he mastered forms 2 and 7, let alone Vaapad (essentially form 8). He also created his own Hybrid form (form 9?).

 

I would also like to point out that Luke is only one of three Jedi Masters ever to prove that they could survive without the force, the other two being the "Exile" Meetra Surik and Ulic Qel-Droma (granted master status post-humously after his corpse became one with the force). Therefore while Luke used the Force when available, he was not reliant on it.

 

I do agree though that Mace is a strong contender.

 

Part of the problem with Luke is that writers have built him up into a super being, capable of doing anything, and overcoming every obstacle, if the books were written today, he would probably be more realistic, and have his companions solve the problems half the time instead. That said, the books have been written, and according to them he is that good.

Edited August 10, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Beniboybling]

Luke certainly mastered forms 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Can't say for certain if he mastered forms 2 and 7, let alone Vaapad (essentially form 8). He also created his own Hybrid form (form 9?).

 

I would also like to point out that Luke is only one of three Jedi Masters ever to prove that they could survive without the force, the other two being the "Exile" Meetra Surik and Ulic Qel-Droma (granted master status post-humously after his corpse became one with the force). Therefore while Luke used the Force when available, he was not reliant on it.

 

I do agree though that Mace is a strong contender.

 

Part of the problem with Luke is that writers have built him up into a super being, capable of doing anything, and overcoming every obstacle, if the books were written today, he would probably be more realistic, and have his companions solve the problems half the time instead. That said, the books have been written, and according to them he is that good.

Indeed, but the thing is, as we are not taking into account Force abilities. Luke doesn't have to be the best. Its perfectly plausible to believe that Yoda and/or Windu were superior lightsaber duelists. Skywalker was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his age, but Yoda and Windu were the greatest lightsaber duelists of the Golden Age.

[AlexDougherty]

Indeed, but the thing is, as we are not taking into account Force abilities. Luke doesn't have to be the best. Its perfectly plausible to believe that Yoda and/or Windu were superior lightsaber duelists. Skywalker was the greatest lightsaber duelist of his age, but Yoda and Windu were the greatest lightsaber duelists of the Golden Age.

 

Yes, this seems to be an extremely fair summation, only thing left is to figure out how Sidious/Palpatine fits into this.

[tunewalker]

Yes, this seems to be an extremely fair summation, only thing left is to figure out how Sidious/Palpatine fits into this.

 

bellow all three of them in my opinion he either lost to each of them in a saber duel or didn't fight them in a saber duel, his duel with yoda he quickly got out of range and resorted to his force abilities rather then face yoda head to head in a saber duel likely because he knew it would be hard if not impossible to win against the jedi master in that arena. I would still say Luke is number 1 saber skill wise and I am unsure that Sidious didn't at least catch up to windu being neck and neck with him in pure skill wise while Yoda was just under Luke.

[Beniboybling]

bellow all three of them in my opinion he either lost to each of them in a saber duel or didn't fight them in a saber duel, his duel with yoda he quickly got out of range and resorted to his force abilities rather then face yoda head to head in a saber duel likely because he knew it would be hard if not impossible to win against the jedi master in that arena. I would still say Luke is number 1 saber skill wise and I am unsure that Sidious didn't at least catch up to windu being neck and neck with him in pure skill wise while Yoda was just under Luke.

This pretty much concerning Sidious.

 

But I think we should focus on #1. Luke may be the son of the Chosen One but is he really superior to Yoda, who had 900 years of experience and first hand knowledge of the forms? Unlike Luke who was very much picking up the pieces.

[tunewalker]

This pretty much concerning Sidious.

 

But I think we should focus on #1. Luke may be the son of the Chosen One but is he really superior to Yoda, who had 900 years of experience and first hand knowledge of the forms? Unlike Luke who was very much picking up the pieces.

 

both at their height are masters of all seven forms, Luke took his mastery of all seven and was much more open about using all seven rather then just using 3 (yoda primarily uses Ataru, followed by soresu and Shien), and has shown his exceptional skill with out the force. To top it off we can not discount even if he had to put it all back together he did so while constantly in action his methods were tried and true on all fronts and forms of war and he is still noted as picking up Lightsaber combat much faster then any one ever did or would do so gaining near instanteous and instinctive mastery over Form V.

[TalonVII]

Take away their force powers and Luke is like he was among the Ysalmari when (according to alex's information) he still managed to deflect multiple blaster bolts even from something as large and with as heavy guns as an AT-AT, I know in the thrawn trilogy he killed several of those creatures in the Mryrkr forests while under the effects of Ysalmari with nothing but his lightsaber, so I wouldn't be to sure if you took away force powers that windu could defeat Luke in a 1v1 lightsaber battle after all Windu was an incredibly powerful force user as well, and Vaapad was as much a force form as it was a lightsaber form in addition Vaapad specifically states that it uses up a lot of force power when wielding it.

 

But here's the thing, outside of using shatterpoint, Mace actually doesn't really use that many force powers relying more on his powers with a blade. If anything outside of a jump here, drawing his saber back to his hand, Mace almost never uses the force when he fights.

[tunewalker]

But here's the thing, outside of using shatterpoint, Mace actually doesn't really use that many force powers relying more on his powers with a blade. If anything outside of a jump here, drawing his saber back to his hand, Mace almost never uses the force when he fights.

 

then you don't understand the definition of "using the force" his body, reaction time, movement speed all of it is where it is because of the force, again using Vaapad he has to use a lot of force power just so his body can preform the maneuvers. Just because he isn't using the ALTER portions of the force doesn't mean he isn't using the force. If we wanted to include speed, valor and reaction speed then Luke would win hands down easy any day of the weak. Windu NEVER fights with out heavily relying on the force but the same can be said for all jedi.

[TalonVII]

then you don't understand the definition of "using the force" his body, reaction time, movement speed all of it is where it is because of the force, again using Vaapad he has to use a lot of force power just so his body can preform the maneuvers. Just because he isn't using the ALTER portions of the force doesn't mean he isn't using the force. If we wanted to include speed, valor and reaction speed then Luke would win hands down easy any day of the weak. Windu NEVER fights with out heavily relying on the force but the same can be said for all jedi.

 

And you don't understand Vaapad. It's about taking the darkness of a dark force user, and channeling their power back at them through the use of a lightsaber. It's almost like a force channeling form V with some unpredictable maneuvers thrown in.

 

Sorry you won't convince me that Luke is superior to Mace, he might of mastered all 7 forms by the time he became grand master, but he didn't create one from scratch and then turn around and master it. Mace did. No other duelest we are arguing about has done so.

 

Sorry jumps Mace right to the top of the list IMO. Reason why mace was a Weaponsmaster. Buck went no further than he when it came to lightsaber fighting.

 

Why the list should look like:

 

1. Mace

2. Yoda

3. Luke

4. Sideous

 

That's the top 4. You can keep saying Luke did this and that, but he hasn't done that one thing that sets Mace apart. He didn't develop A NEW STYLE. Mace did.

[Beniboybling]

Guys this thread is about lightsaber mastery, not force powers. Its pointless to discuss it.

 

One's reliance on Force powers is irrelevant. Nobody is getting points here for being less reliant on the Force. One cannot use one's force powers to improve one's lightsaber mastery. They are irrelevant, completely.