Kaggath Tournament - Sol’yc Empire vs Krayt’s Vision

[Warren-Stride]

...on Telos IV they may very well track down the location of the military base. Which means fleets can swoop in and orbitally bombard them.

 

HK-50 Factory: As an expansion on the intial tactics, if the probe droids locate the HK-50 factory they could potentially hack and take control of all the droids and have them turn against the SE.

 

Just to point out two things:

 

The Telos IV base has survived orbital bombardment before. It's a bunker, after all.

 

HK-50s can't be hacked. They aren't connected to a central control computer, they're individual beings that follow orders from their employer. The only way you could potentially hack a HK-50 would be to have the Probot directly attach to the droid... which seems unlikely. Also, I'd like to see a Probot infiltrate the bunker. The one filled to the brim with HK-50s just waiting to kill whatever comes through the door. I don't think hacking the HKs is a viable tactic.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Aurbere]

This argument is negated by the tech rule, for all intensive purposes technology is universal - so unless they are using Rakatan or Gree tech then the probots should have too much trouble.

 

Thanks tech rule!

[StarSquirrel]

Thanks tech rule!

Actually my point was that the computers wouldn't be a.) networked nearly as well or as much and b.) The ones that where wouldn't be as critical to the function of the ship as they would on say, an Impstar II. Plus I believe much of the OR weapons systems were more manually operated even up to the Imperial era.

 

As to the ability for them to be hacked, sure tech rule applies can't argue that.

 

Also, as Warren mentioned HK-50's can't be hacked and their facility is quite well built.

 

I like Beni's scenario at Bilbringi and was actually thinking of a similar strat including using the enemy's own grav fields to make micro-jumps on top of them.

 

Rayla, no I know Pellaeon. He was fantastic as a leader for the Remnant and did exactly what was needed, but he had a higher than normal worry for those under his command. He would get sick (literally) when he suffered massive casualties. That character trait meant he played strategically, he's in it for the long haul and he's patient. No I've properly assessed his hesitancy. Plus, he has a habit of trying to react to a situation instead of being the one on the initiative giving Nek the advantage especially in a situation like that at Bilbringi.

[Beniboybling]

Thanks tech rule!

No, thank the Maker.

[Aurbere]

I have yet to see an argument for how the SE even manages to enter the Deep Core. There is only one entry way. Both sides know it. The only way for the SE to win is to kill Krayt, and we know that Krayt can be content with sitting back and letting his cronies do the work.

 

So how does the SE kill Krayt? Two choices. 1. Push into the Deep Core and wage standard war. 2. Lure Krayt out.

 

Unfortunately, #2 is not entirely likely, and #1 is nigh impossible. You can lure Krayt out, yes, but killing him is not so easy.

[Aurbere]

No, thank the Maker.

 

[StarSquirrel]

I have yet to see an argument for how the SE even manages to enter the Deep Core. There is only one entry way. Both sides know it. The only way for the SE to win is to kill Krayt, and we know that Krayt can be content with sitting back and letting his cronies do the work.

 

So how does the SE kill Krayt? Two choices. 1. Push into the Deep Core and wage standard war. 2. Lure Krayt out.

 

Unfortunately, #2 is not entirely likely, and #1 is nigh impossible. You can lure Krayt out, yes, but killing him is not so easy.

 

Aurbere #2 is the plan and it is incredibly likely especially with the possible loss of both of his highest officers. Heck if Daala turns she could convince him she's going to land a death blow and he'll want to be around for it. Then *bam* Krayt is exposed enough to get killed.

 

Don't underestimate Krayt's pride. He certainly thinks he's the best and is surrounded by yes-men, so he wont feel too threatened.

Edited August 2, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

I have yet to see an argument for how the SE even manages to enter the Deep Core. There is only one entry way. Both sides know it. The only way for the SE to win is to kill Krayt, and we know that Krayt can be content with sitting back and letting his cronies do the work.

 

So how does the SE kill Krayt? Two choices. 1. Push into the Deep Core and wage standard war. 2. Lure Krayt out.

 

Unfortunately, #2 is not entirely likely, and #1 is nigh impossible. You can lure Krayt out, yes, but killing him is not so easy.

If Daala defects she may be able to smuggle the SE fleet into the Core or persuade Krayt to leave and enter a trap.

[Beniboybling]

Just to point out two things:

 

The Telos IV base has survived orbital bombardment before. It's a bunker, after all.

 

HK-50s can't be hacked. They aren't connected to a central control computer, they're individual beings that follow orders from their employer. The only way you could potentially hack a HK-50 would be to have the Probot directly attach to the droid... which seems unlikely. Also, I'd like to see a Probot infiltrate the bunker. The one filled to the brim with HK-50s just waiting to kill whatever comes through the door. I don't think hacking the HKs is a viable tactic.

The Telos base may be able to survive Base Delta Zero but the surrounding area won't. Reducing the surface to molten slag is going to make it rather tricky to get out of that base. Essentially they can bury it and seal of the entrance, effectively neutralizing it as a threat. Its far more favorable than an attempted invasion.

 

Good point about HKs though.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Aurbere #2 is the plan and it is incredibly likely especially with the possible loss of both of his highest officers. Heck if Daala turns she could convince him she's going to land a death blow and he'll want to be around for it. Then *bam* Krayt is exposed enough to get killed.

 

Don't underestimate Krayt's pride. He certainly thinks he's the best and s surrounded by yes-men, so he wont feel too threatened.

 

But how are you going to kill him? That's what I want to know.

 

We all know he's not going to let himself be killed, and he's not going to go it alone.

[Beniboybling]

But how are you going to kill him? That's what I want to know.

 

We all know he's not going to let himself be killed, and he's not going to go it alone.

How indeed.

[Aurbere]

If Daala defects she may be able to smuggle the SE fleet into the Core or persuade Krayt to leave and enter a trap.

 

How exactly do you smuggle a fleet? How exactly do you plan to smuggle a large fleet into the Deep Core?

[Beniboybling]

How exactly do you smuggle a fleet? How exactly do you plan to smuggle a large fleet into the Deep Core?

Smuggle is perhaps the wrong word, by smuggle I mean take certain steps to ensure that the SE fleet can enter the Core unopposed.

 

i.e. removing the fleet over Foerost and any fleets or Interdiction units surrounding Byss. Shut down the droid etc.

[StarSquirrel]

I do believe I've covered that about 4 times but I'll do it again to save some page flipping.

 

Option 1) -possible- Jaina and Boba as well as crew of HK-50's and Mandalorian Supercommandos board Krayt's ship. Boba and his commandos take on Talon. Honestly, in the confined spaces of a ship the numbers and firepower that Boba brings will overwhelm Talon and if not an HK-50 just snipes her in the back while she's busy killing mandos. Meanwhile Jaina (who I've already shown can take Krayt) duels Krayt. If she doesn't kill him a strategically placed cloaked HK unit (or even Daala) shoots him in the back (same way he died in lore no reason to assume he'd be any more prepared this time.)

 

Option 2) -likely- Daala separates her force from the main force and Krayt's ship is captured and can be boarded or obliterated if needed.

 

Option 3) -unlikely- Krayt actually joins a ground force in what he thinks in a final blow to kill Tenel Ka and suffers a combination of 1 and 2. Strike Team + overwhelming force on standby

 

Option 4) -possible (my favorite)- Get him on a planet we can reach and Nuke it to hell.

 

I think the other debaters might have other scenarios but these are my personal thoughts.

 

Also, if I convert Daala I could theoretically get info on how to stop, disable, or use probots.

Edited August 2, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

Smuggle is perhaps the wrong word, by smuggle I mean take certain steps to ensure that the SE fleet can enter the Core unopposed.

 

i.e. removing the fleet over Foerost and any fleets or Interdiction units surrounding Byss. Shut down the droid etc.

 

Ah. I see. That would look like a tactical blunder, and I think Krayt would notice.

[LadyKulvax]

Daala is merely an ally may I point out and her background is definitely known by Krayt and the others, she is not learning all the KV's secrets and plans, again she is only an ally.

 

Again though I still don't see how the KV's fleet is even losing Bilbringi, stick the Imperious classes upfront, they can take a fleet each, the SE just does not have an answer for those flagships and as I proposed earlier the 'trap' is easily countered by a long range BDZ attack which has been done before, this will force the SE out of the field to stop the destruction, the only defense is a ring of asteroids, that ring does not protect the entire planet and will not protect it from long-range bombardment.

 

If there is one thing that Pallaeon loves, it is a long range easy engagement, he likes the most viable and least costly alternative, this is exactly one of those cases and the idea of him recklessly steam rolling through the asteroid ring, is just not in his nature, he is a smart admiral he will draw them out.

[StarSquirrel]

Daala is merely an ally may I point out and her background is definitely known by Krayt and the others, she is not learning all the KV's secrets and plans, again she is only an ally.

 

Again though I still don't see how the KV's fleet is even losing Bilbringi, stick the Imperious classes upfront, they can take a fleet each, the SE just does not have an answer for those flagships and as I proposed earlier the 'trap' is easily countered by a long range BDZ attack which has been done before, this will force the SE out of the field to stop the destruction, the only defense is a ring of asteroids, that ring does not protect the entire planet and will not protect it from long-range bombardment.

 

If there is one thing that Pallaeon loves, it is a long range easy engagement, he likes the most viable and least costly alternative, this is exactly one of those cases and the idea of him recklessly steam rolling through the asteroid ring, is just not in his nature, he is a smart admiral he will draw them out.

 

Rayla stop exaggerating the Imperious please. They are not worth an entire fleet, hell they are marginally better than an Imperial II and the Pellaeon. The Imperious might be, but not the entire class or they'd be SSD's. On top of this they where brand new so there weren't that many of them.

 

And Pallaeon knows he will lose a slugging match with missiles. Missiles can destroy ships with only a few well placed strikes. (per the wookieepedia page on Assault Concussion Missiles)

 

Also the Planet is virtually useless to me, its the shipyards located behind the very thick asteroid field and the fact that missiles will be flying KV's way no matter where they are so they have to engage.

 

As for Daala, Allies will learn all the plans. Besides if Pellaeon is dead she's Krayt's primary naval officer of course she'll be entrusted with fighting the war for him.

[Beniboybling]

I do believe I've covered that about 4 times but I'll do it again to save some page flipping.

 

Option 1) -possible- Jaina and Boba as well as crew of HK-50's and Mandalorian Supercommandos board Krayt's ship. Boba and his commandos take on Talon. Honestly, in the confined spaces of a ship the numbers and firepower that Boba brings will overwhelm Talon and if not an HK-50 just snipes her in the back while she's busy killing mandos. Meanwhile Jaina (who I've already shown can take Krayt) duels Krayt. If she doesn't kill him a strategically placed cloaked HK unit (or even Daala) shoots him in the back (same way he died in lore no reason to assume he'd be any more prepared this time.)

The idea that Darth Talon could be taken out by a lone bounty hunter and a crew of droids is an insult to her abilities. She has been chosen as Krayt's Hand for a reason. She has taken on multiple Jedi and defeated them, and easily defeated an Imperial Knight without suffering a scratch. She is very powerful, the HK droids could be destroyed with Force lightning and without their help, and without any room to jetpack away, Boba will quickly follow.

 

Really, Talon > Boba + HKs any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

 

Jaina may stand a better chance against Krayt, but his abilities in dark transfer will be her downfall. If Krayt can easily take on Cade I see no reason why he would be overcome by Jaina.

 

P.S. HK-50 units don't have any known stealth capabilities.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Ah. I see. That would look like a tactical blunder, and I think Krayt would notice.

And by then... it would be too late.

[StarSquirrel]

The idea that Darth Talon could be taken out by a lone bounty hunter and a crew of droids is an insult to her abilities. She has been chosen as Krayt's Hand for a reason. She has taken on multiple Jedi and defeated them, and easily defeated an Imperial Knight without suffering a scratch. She is very powerful, the HK droids could be destroyed with Force lightning and without their help, and without any room to jetpack away, Boba will quickly follow.

 

Really, Talon > Boba + HKs any day of the week and twice on Saturdays.

 

Jaina may stand a better chance against Krayt, but his abilities in dark transfer will be her downfall. If Krayt can easily take on Cade I see no reason why he would be overcome by Jaina.

We've already had this argument Beni at the beginning of the thread. Dark Transfer is not an ability to kill only torture, and distracts Krayt. Also, as I mentioned, Krayt notoriously leaves his backside open when he focuses on a target.

 

On top of this Jaina is a fully trained knight who has fought in wars all her life. Cade is a half-trained jedi and smuggler who often disregards the force and often relies purely on his latent ability as a Skywalker. Jaina has the same or better potential and she is fully trained.

 

As for Talon vs Boba, Talon is an acrobat, enclosed spaces really screw her over. All Boba needs is a couple electro-nets (that Talon will cut through) a hail of blaster fire (she then has to block) and a few sonic grenades/mines (that she has no defense for, and she's toast. Especially with HK-50's at her back (which she can't sense and never showed the ability to sense). She's outnumbered, every Jedi/Sith has this weakness throughout all of Star Wars lore.

 

Anything else?

[LadyKulvax]

Rayla stop exaggerating the Imperious please.

 

I am doing no such thing, if you had read the Legacy comics you would know that the Imperious alone was taking on many ships during a larger fleet battle and was winning, it took the arrival of more ships from the large fleet for the ship to be secured.

[StarSquirrel]

P.S. HK-50 units don't have any known stealth capabilities.

The HK-47 and HK-51 models both did so it is no stretch to assume HK-50's did as well as the HK-50 is based off the HK-47 and the HK-51 is based off the HK-50. Just because they didn't use it against Meetra (who they incapacitated and one nearly killed her on Pergus btw, take that as an example of their prowess) doesn't mean they couldn't.

[LadyKulvax]

Anything else?

 

A large cone of Lightning to trap all her enemies would easily work, she has done it before in torture sessions and can do it again, her force lightning is very powerful, a lot more powerful than some here seem to think.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[LadyKulvax]

The HK-47 and HK-51 models both did so it is no stretch to assume HK-50's did as well as the HK-50 is based off the HK-47 and the HK-51 is based off the HK-50. Just because they didn't use it against Meetra (who they incapacitated and one nearly killed her on Pergus btw, take that as an example of their prowess) doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

A powerless, barely conscious Meetra that could barely defend herself destroyed the HK droid and three of it's brothers on Telos, certainly worthy of their vaunted Jedi killing skills.

[StarSquirrel]

I am doing no such thing, if you had read the Legacy comics you would know that the Imperious alone was taking on many ships during a larger fleet battle and was winning, it took the arrival of more ships from the large fleet for the ship to be secured.

 

"a number of ships" in a pitched naval battle is not taking on an entire fleet alone by any stretch. Plus it was designed to take on the best ships their enemies fielded individually not take on a fleet.