Watchman : Pre 2.0 and Post 2.0

[Leafy_Bug]

Dear All,

 

 

I have been playing Watchman for a while now and I thought I knew the class. Pre 2.0 I was the highest DPS in my guild with a 2150 parse on the dummy. 2.0 hit and I noticed something was off with my sentinel but I blamed it on the gear. I have geared up now and I seem to have reached a ceiling so to say. I am using this spec as the extra point for the offhand is more valuable than the extra crit.

 

We are two sentinels in the guild who help progression. We are almost identical gear wise and spec wise. During fights, I am out damaged quite badly. In some by up to 300 DPS. We have spoken, had a look at the logs and we are doing the same things as well. I just hit the dummy before the server shutdown and I topped off at 2830 dps while he topped off at 2900 dps. It seems that on the dummy we are closer but I am still behind.

 

 

My question to you watchman sentinels who parse extremely high what is your opening priority list and what do you prioritize during a boss fight? Maybe 2.0 has changed how the sentinel works and I am making some mistakes without knowing. I also want to point out that my opening burst is nowhere near as high as his on both the dummy and boss. Please find below my opener :

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------

1. Valorous Call

2. Leap

3. Inspiration+Adrenal

4. Overload

5. Zealous

6. Cauterize

7. Merciless Slash for Cauterize reset

8. Master strike

9. Cauterize

 

------------------------------------------------------------

[oofalong]

It sounds like you are using all of your CDs before you build 6 stacks of Juyo Form. Juyo Form will contribute ~12% damage to all of your attacks so hold off on Inspiration, Relic, Valorous Call, etc.

[Leafy_Bug]

It sounds like you are using all of your CDs before you build 6 stacks of Juyo Form. Juyo Form will contribute ~12% damage to all of your attacks so hold off on Inspiration, Relic, Valorous Call, etc.

 

 

Man, if I tell you that you just made me bang my head against the table, would you believe me? I did not rush before the patch because of the 3 stacks of merciless but in my eagerness to build and maintain the new 4 stacks I forgot the basic principle around this spec.

 

Any other excellent suggestions???

Edited July 10, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Sigred]

Man, if I tell you that you just made me bang my head against the table, would you believe me? I did not rush before the patch because of the 3 stacks of merciless but in my eagerness to build and maintain the new 4 stacks I forgot the basic principle around this spec.

 

Any other excellent suggestions???

 

You could also play Combat. On average, they're both roughly equal output. However, there are quite a few bosses where Combat is just flat out superior now.

[oofalong]

Man, if I tell you that you just made me bang my head against the table, would you believe me? I did not rush before the patch because of the 3 stacks of merciless but in my eagerness to build and maintain the new 4 stacks I forgot the basic principle around this spec.

 

Any other excellent suggestions???

 

Make sure you use Twin Saber Throw almost on CD - it is free and does more damage than Slash. The extra free attack gives your procs another chance and allows you to get back to higher damaging abilities sooner.

[Leafy_Bug]

Make sure you use Twin Saber Throw almost on CD - it is free and does more damage than Slash. The extra free attack gives your procs another chance and allows you to get back to higher damaging abilities sooner.

 

I admit I never use twin saber throw so this is , yet again, another welcome suggestion. I would like to ask you about cauterize and the delay to apply it. How do you go around it and do you refresh the 4 stack merciless buff right before expiry?

 

 

You could also play Combat. On average, they're both roughly equal output. However, there are quite a few bosses where Combat is just flat out superior now.

 

 

I am running a 5 36 5 spec and I am loving it. Sadly, my proficiency with combat is not yet very good and there are moments then I get a bit lost. I am practicing this and will probably switch as I am starting to find watchman too slow for my taste.

[oofalong]

I admit I never use twin saber throw so this is , yet again, another welcome suggestion. I would like to ask you about cauterize and the delay to apply it. How do you go around it and do you refresh the 4 stack merciless buff right before expiry?

 

Use Merciless Slash and Overload Saber on CD. If they are both up at the same time, I find it better to use Merciless Slash first as its effective cost is 4 focus, but is actually costs 5 then refunds 1. For example, if you currently have 7 focus, you can use Merciless Slash followed by Overload Saber ( -5 +1 -3 = -7); however, you can not use Overload Saner followed by Merciless Slash.

 

As far as Cauterize, never use it more than every 4th attack. Its CD is longer than this, but Mind Seer can proc it. On the dummy it is easy to see if this DoT is up, but against a boss especially with another Watchman it can be tough. Just try to keep track of your last use of it; if you can't recall the last time you used it you are probably safe to use it again.

[Sigred]

I admit I never use twin saber throw so this is , yet again, another welcome suggestion. I would like to ask you about cauterize and the delay to apply it. How do you go around it and do you refresh the 4 stack merciless buff right before expiry?

 

You actually shouldn't be using TST at all *unless* there are also adds already in your cone (requiring zero extra positioning on your part), or you are forced to be at range from the target without being able to leap back to melee immediately. It is free, and it *appears* to be higher damage than a slash. However, the main reason that you should still simply use a regular slash instead is that you do not gain centering from TST. Slowing down the rate that you get centering, on purpose, is a net DPS loss for the entirety of the fight. It is a good filler for when you are forced out of melee (which does happen regularly in TFB/S&V), but you should never use it in your rotation as a staple ability.

 

As for merciless/cauterize, once you are up to 4 stacks, the timers sync up perfectly to set into a nice 6s rotation. Merciless comes off CD just before your previous cauterize drops off. More often than not, that merciless will proc the CD on cauterize to apply a fresh one immediately. Merciless > Cauterize > Filler > Filler & repeat as long as the procs continue to sync.

 

 

I am running a 5 36 5 spec and I am loving it. Sadly, my proficiency with combat is not yet very good and there are moments then I get a bit lost. I am practicing this and will probably switch as I am starting to find watchman too slow for my taste.

 

Why would you ever have 5 points in Focus? 3 points in Insight, and 2 back in the Combat tree for one of the utility talents. Nothing else in Focus will benefit you in any tangible way.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Sigred

[KeyboardNinja]

Why would you ever have 5 points in Focus? 3 points in Insight, and 2 back in the Combat tree for one of the utility talents. Nothing else in Focus will benefit you in any tangible way.

 

The highest DPS spec for combat has 6 points in Focus. Just FYI.

[oofalong]

The reason Twin Saber Throw appears to do more damage is because it does. It is obviously physically impossible to use only centering-building abilities as these consume Focus. Go look at the top parses on TORParse and you will see they use Twin Saber Throw/Dual Saber Throw.

 

 

EDIT: So the expected damage based on BiS Underworld gear for:

Slash ~2,250

TST ~2,500

 

Each Zen is worth an incremental ~2,900 DPS. Since it takes 8 Focus-consuming attacks, the additional damage benefit of each Focus-consuming attack is ~360. This makes the effective damage of Slash about ~2,600, an increase over TST for sure.

 

Still, since this is a free attack it still has a place in your priority. As Sigred points out it is great to use for Adds or when you are away from the boss. It can also be used when you want to save resource for high priority attacks like Merciless Slash and Overload Saber are coming off CDs.

 

EDIT AGAIN: I forgot to include the OH damage for each ability.

 

TST = ~2,750

Slash = ~2,370

Slash Adj for Centering = ~2,730

 

Based on this update info, TST does indeed have a place in your priority.

Edited July 11, 2013 by oofalong
corrected Information

[Luckeyduckey]

The highest DPS spec for combat has 6 points in Focus. Just FYI.

 

Doesn't mean it's correct. 0 of the talents in Focus are worth taking. Force crit %? Useless, since our force attack is autocrit. Smash damage? Useless. And free scream while in Shii-cho. Nuff said.

[JediMasterSLC]

Doesn't mean it's correct. 0 of the talents in Focus are worth taking. Force crit %? Useless, since our force attack is autocrit. Smash damage? Useless. And free scream while in Shii-cho. Nuff said.

 

This is correct.

[recsa]

Dear All,

 

 

I have been playing Watchman for a while now and I thought I knew the class. Pre 2.0 I was the highest DPS in my guild with a 2150 parse on the dummy. 2.0 hit and I noticed something was off with my sentinel but I blamed it on the gear. I have geared up now and I seem to have reached a ceiling so to say. I am using this spec as the extra point for the offhand is more valuable than the extra crit.

 

We are two sentinels in the guild who help progression. We are almost identical gear wise and spec wise. During fights, I am out damaged quite badly. In some by up to 300 DPS. We have spoken, had a look at the logs and we are doing the same things as well. I just hit the dummy before the server shutdown and I topped off at 2830 dps while he topped off at 2900 dps. It seems that on the dummy we are closer but I am still behind.

 

 

My question to you watchman sentinels who parse extremely high what is your opening priority list and what do you prioritize during a boss fight? Maybe 2.0 has changed how the sentinel works and I am making some mistakes without knowing. I also want to point out that my opening burst is nowhere near as high as his on both the dummy and boss. Please find below my opener :

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------

1. Valorous Call

2. Leap

3. Inspiration+Adrenal

4. Overload

5. Zealous

6. Cauterize

7. Merciless Slash for Cauterize reset

8. Master strike

9. Cauterize

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

I agree with most of the advices said here, but also i would suggest you to ask your freind to upload one of his parsers, one of those with 300 dps diff, to TORPARSE, do the same and compare them, to be more precise, compare the APM, im pretty sure he is beating you there.

 

APM is the "best" measure of what its often call "hands" or "skill", it's the ability to think fast and react to mobs movement and such, so the better your 'reflexes' the higher the amount of hits you achieve (Actions Per Minute), that has been always and allways will be the biggest single difference in DPS

 

But do not worry, everything in this life can be trained, if it happens he is beating you there, double your focus, try to never stay standing, if on doucbt on what to do, just hit strikle or slash, keep in mind that a focus generating hit is better than not hitting at all.

 

Also, some Damage Meter obsesed sentinels try to use our limited AoE capabilities to its maximum, by using TST, Sweep and CS on adds packs as much as they can, nothing wrong about it as long as it is not done at the expense of Boss DPS, what it uses to be too frecuent, if thats the diff, dont worry, its useless DPS, our class is designed for single target DPS, so your role is to DPS boss to death, we will never get up to Gunslingers or Commandos big numbers on total dmg dealt when there are packs of adds, sadly right now we cant neither get up to Gunslingers single target numbers, but thats another story.

Edited July 11, 2013 by recsa

[oofalong]

TORParse defines APM or Attacks-per-minute as activated abilities. In other words, activating your relic, adrenal, Zen/Berserk, Inspiration/Bloodthirst, Valorous Call/Frenzy all inflate this number. Plus, Overload/Saber Deadly contributes here as well. This makes it difficult to say what the ideal number is.

 

Ultimately, the goal should be to make use of all 40 GCD in a minute. Said another way, 1.5s between attacks would represent perfect execution. This is impossible due to human reaction time and lag. Still, there is a significant loss in damage if your attacks happen every 1.6s. This tenth of a second delay equates to ~7% less damage. This is equivalent to going from 3,000 DPS to 2,790 DPS.

[Leafy_Bug]

Dear All,

 

 

Apologies for the late reply, was a bit busy these past days. I also come back with something new about this difference between us. It seems that on bosses that do not move I am above him by 50-70 dps. We ran this test by killing Horic first in SV HM. I was at 3050 while he was at 2990-3000 dps. As soon as we moved to the one that teleports my damage dropped like the titanic. I was at 2400 he was at 2700. We spoke after the fight and looked at logs. It seems that on moving bosses, even if I keep 4 stacks of merciless, I am doing something wrong compared to how i was doing things before 2.0. We then ran dread guard to confirm this and yes, I have issues when the bosses require me to move. Damage was identical on the middle boss, then as soon as we moved to the mara and kelsara he pulled ahead again.

 

 

I pugged an SV HM run the other day to practice a new priority list when the boss is moving and by the time I got to Olok I saw an improvement. As you can see from this 'interesting run' almost 1.8 million done in this fight. So dummy is not a problem as i parse very high, stationary bosses or ones that move little again, I am top damage, bosses that teleport and require me to move due to mechanics are the death of me. I will get back into pvp as watchman to practice dot application and APM. Any other advice?

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/337044/27/0/Damage+Dealt

Edited July 15, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[K_osss]

Not a suggestion per se but I'm curious what your hotkey set up is? If possibly it's contributing to your difficulty moving and attacking? Some rebind's might help?

[oofalong]

Dear All,

 

 

Apologies for the late reply, was a bit busy these past days. I also come back with something new about this difference between us. It seems that on bosses that do not move I am above him by 50-70 dps. We ran this test by killing Horic first in SV HM. I was at 3050 while he was at 2990-3000 dps. As soon as we moved to the one that teleports my damage dropped like the titanic. I was at 2400 he was at 2700. We spoke after the fight and looked at logs. It seems that on moving bosses, even if I keep 4 stacks of merciless, I am doing something wrong compared to how i was doing things before 2.0. We then ran dread guard to confirm this and yes, I have issues when the bosses require me to move. Damage was identical on the middle boss, then as soon as we moved to the mara and kelsara he pulled ahead again.

 

 

I pugged an SV HM run the other day to practice a new priority list when the boss is moving and by the time I got to Olok I saw an improvement. As you can see from this 'interesting run' almost 1.8 million done in this fight. So dummy is not a problem as i parse very high, stationary bosses or ones that move little again, I am top damage, bosses that teleport and require me to move due to mechanics are the death of me. I will get back into pvp as watchman to practice dot application and APM. Any other advice?

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/337044/27/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Where is the other guy's parse?

[BlznSmri]

Doesn't mean it's correct. 0 of the talents in Focus are worth taking. Force crit %? Useless, since our force attack is autocrit. Smash damage? Useless. And free scream while in Shii-cho. Nuff said.

 

6% To force crit affects Cauterize which is a (marginal) gain, Swelling Winds only benefits AoEs, sure, but those points are there to get you the point in Swift Slash, which increases Dispatch crits by 7.5%, which throughout the fight is more DPS than having one or two more Zens.

 

When compared to the alternative talents, Focus back on Rebuke procs, Snares for various abilities, Riposte lowering the CD of Rebuke, Slows from cauterize and heals from cauterize, those 6 points in Focus are better geared towards increasing your DPS.

Edited July 15, 2013 by BlznSmri

[oofalong]

I love how this Watchman thread has become about the benefits of Insight/Malice for Combat/Carnage. I believe KBN's math is off on the benefits of +7.5% crit to Dispatch/Vicious Throw - see this thread. You should never have more than 5 points in the Focus tree for Combat. Edited July 15, 2013 by oofalong

[Ausgelebt]

You actually shouldn't be using TST at all *unless* there are also adds already in your cone (requiring zero extra positioning on your part), or you are forced to be at range from the target without being able to leap back to melee immediately. It is free, and it *appears* to be higher damage than a slash. However, the main reason that you should still simply use a regular slash instead is that you do not gain centering from TST. Slowing down the rate that you get centering, on purpose, is a net DPS loss for the entirety of the fight. It is a good filler for when you are forced out of melee (which does happen regularly in TFB/S&V), but you should never use it in your rotation as a staple ability.

 

Sorry but you disqualified yourself. In the left spec you don't need range to leap and TST doesn't require range to be used. Please stop posting.

[JediMasterSLC]

Sorry but you disqualified yourself. In the left spec you don't need range to leap and TST doesn't require range to be used. Please stop posting.

 

That's obviously not what he meant ..... he's just saying that you should only use it if adds would be hit as well, OR if there's a period where you're forced to stay out of melee range of the thing you want to damage. He's not saying you should use it as a GCD filler when you back up for a leap or something, as your reply suggests. What he said is fine.

[oofalong]

That's obviously not what he meant ..... he's just saying that you should only use it if adds would be hit as well, OR if there's a period where you're forced to stay out of melee range of the thing you want to damage. He's not saying you should use it as a GCD filler when you back up for a leap or something, as your reply suggests. What he said is fine.

 

I believe the advice to avoid TST as part of your rotation is wrong. Further, I demonstrate why in this post so what s/he said is not fine. People are entitled to whatever opinion they want, but I believe recommendations should be based on data and/or math.

[vdbswong]

I love how this Watchman thread has become about the benefits of Insight/Malice for Combat/Carnage. I believe KBN's math is off on the benefits of +7.5% crit to Dispatch/Vicious Throw - see this thread. You should never have more than 5 points in the Focus tree for Combat.

 

True, but at the time the argument wasn't made about whether or not the DPS was higher, but about being able to take extra Utility Talents... which Blzn was arguing were just as "worthless" as the apparent points you'd need to take in the Focus tree.

 

Assuming KBN's math wasn't incorrect, the choice between Utility (that would be barely useful or incredibly situational) or more DPS (which is always useful), the latter should win out.

 

I believe the advice to avoid TST as part of your rotation is wrong. Further, I demonstrate why in this post so what s/he said is not fine. People are entitled to whatever opinion they want, but I believe recommendations should be based on data and/or math.

 

Can you elaborate as to what the advice should be then?

 

Use on CD? Use when you need to conserve Rage/Focus?

 

I normally used it only for the latter, for example, when i was at ~6 Focus and Merciless Slash was a GCD away, Slash would put me under and TST would give me more damage than Strike.

 

Although, whilst you can use to save Rage/Focus for higher priority abilities coming off CD, is there a way to Math the "DPS Loss" in the subsequent need to regain Focus?

 

I.E.

 

> 6 Focus with Merciless Slash coming off CD within 1 GCD.

> If you Strike, that's 8 Focus, with 3 left after Merciless Slash... which means you can go into a Cauterize (if you proc a reset), Overload Saber or Slash.

> If you TST, you have 1 Focus left, meaning you *have* to Strike anyways, in order to use any Focus spending ability.

 

Whilst TST is higher damage upfront, you've delayed your Focus building *and* your Centering generation.

 

Is there a way to factor in the "net" effect of this?

Edited July 16, 2013 by vdbswong

[oofalong]

True, but at the time the argument wasn't made about whether or not the DPS was higher, but about being able to take extra Utility Talents... which Blzn was arguing were just as "worthless" as the apparent points you'd need to take in the Focus tree.

 

Assuming KBN's math wasn't incorrect, the choice between Utility (that would be barely useful or incredibly situational) or more DPS (which is always useful), the latter should win out.

 

 

 

Can you elaborate as to what the advice should be then?

 

Use on CD? Use when you need to conserve Rage/Focus?

 

I normally used it only for the latter, for example, when i was at ~6 Focus and Merciless Slash was a GCD away, Slash would put me under and TST would give me more damage than Strike.

 

Although, whilst you can use to save Rage/Focus for higher priority abilities coming off CD, is there a way to Math the "DPS Loss" in the subsequent need to regain Focus?

 

I.E.

 

> 6 Focus with Merciless Slash coming off CD within 1 GCD.

> If you Strike, that's 8 Focus, with 3 left after Merciless Slash... which means you can go into a Cauterize (if you proc a reset), Overload Saber or Slash.

> If you TST, you have 1 Focus left, meaning you *have* to Strike anyways, in order to use any Focus spending ability.

 

Whilst TST is higher damage upfront, you've delayed your Focus building *and* your Centering generation.

 

Is there a way to factor in the "net" effect of this?

 

I thought I did calculate the net effect of this in the post I linked. Admittedly I did not adjust for the benefit of the Weaponmaster buff. Going back to the beginning my advice was use TST almost on CD or assuming that no higher priority attacks are up. In reality it is far too complicated to to list every relevant option. Some obvious examples include:

 

• Any Adds - Hit Overload/Deadly Saber and TST/DST to DoT all of them.
   
  
• Anytime a target is out of melee range and Force Leap/Charge is on CD.
   
  
• Anytime you are within a GCD of the availability of Overload/Deadly Saber, Cauterize/Rupture and Merciless Slash/Annihilate and you have just enough resource to cast it.
  

[BlznSmri]

Any Adds - Hit Overload/Deadly Saber and TST/DST to DoT all of them.

 

Overload/ Deadly hasn't spread stacking DoTs with AoEs since Denova came out (or shortly thereafter), instead it will apply one stack to the first three targets hit and consume your Overload/ Deadly Saber stacks. Sure, it's more damage to the adds, and thus better AoE, but I personally don't feel the damage is enough to justify its consumption of the stacks, especially since Sentinels aren't an AoE class unless they're Focus specced.

 

Twin Saber Throw is still like the greatest thing ever.